Are Grenades "special weapons"

[Seahawk]

I had another tickler come up last night. I have a unit of IG Veterans with Demolitions (all have meltabombs) assault my immobilized Land Speeder Storm. I had said "Ha, yes! It's still open-topped, so a good chance it'll asplode on you!"

 

This made him reconsider briefly, and the following came up: When assaulting a vehicle, are you required to grenades if you have no other special close combat attack? For instance, can he use only three meltabombs instead of all ten? This seems to be against the idea of "Can't hold anything back" like the rest of close combats, but we couldn't find anything against it so we went with it being a choice thing.

 

He used just three meltabombs and it still blew up anyway, killing off a few guardsmen :cuss.

[JamesI]

If grenades were special weapons, every marine sergeant with a power weapon would hit the 2 special weapons and no longer get attacks for extra weapons.

[Seahawk]

That's what we figured. It just didn't "feel" right kinda to not have everyone do as much damage as possible, despite the risks.

[greatcrusade08]

id consider it on par with the holding attacks back tbh.. if they are in B2B or within "2 of someone who is, they must attack.

of course if they had a S3 ccw they could opt to use that to escape the prospect of killing the thing

[Legatus]

Hm, on the one hand Tactical Marines do more damage when they charge a vehicle (2 strength 4 attacks) than they would with frag grenades (1 strength 4 attack), so they should not be required to use grenades in such a situation. Plus, grenades are not technically described as "a weapon with which the model fights", like it would with a pistol and a sword. It can never get attacks for being equipped with a pistol and grenades, for example. And grenades cannot even used in a regular combat, only against vehicles.

 

On the other hand, models that cannot otherwise harm a vehicle but are equipped with melta bombs or something similar would indeed feel like "holding back attacks" if they did not use grenades.

 

But I will go ahead and suggest that grenades are indeed not counted among the regular "close combat weapons", and it is optional whether a model uses its normal attacks and weapons (which may not be able to harm the vehicle) or whether it decides to use grenades.

Not using grenades could be seen as not shooting with some of the weapons of the squad, which is possible as well.

[Tanhausen]

Aren't krak grenades S6?

[Legatus]

Ah, yes, you are right. I was thinking only of frag grenades.

 

But it would apply to other units like Ork Kommandos. They get 4 attacks at strength 4 when charging a vehicle, thanks to furious charge. But they also are equipped with Stikkbombs, which count as frag grenades.

[*Furyou Miko]

Frag Grenades are, in fact, S3.

[Legatus]

My rulebook begs to differ. (It's on page 63.) They would be pretty pointless if they only were Strength 3, as then they could not even damage the weakest armour in the game.

[Decoy]

Regardless; No unit is obligated to use its most effective weapon. If I have B&C and a meltabomb, I can choose to use the Chainsword in close combat with a vehicle as opposed to the Meltabomb. Likewise, I can make that choice for every man in the unit who has that type of configuration. (Essentially, as Legatus said upthread.)

[Legatus]

Well, there is the requirement to allways use a special close combat weapon when one is available. A model with a chainsword and a powerfist could not simply use the chainsword, because the rules require that all attacks in such a case are made with the special weapon.

 

Because of this I would say that grenades are not only not special weapons, they are also not "regular" close combat weapons. They are a different means to attack, and a model can chose to either use it's weapons or to use grenades this turn. The reason for this is that some models (such as IG Sergeants), may be equipped with powerweapons and also meltabombs. If they were required to use their power weapons in every fight, then they could never use meltabombs.

 

So I suggest that a model with grenades that is fighting against a vehicle can chose to either fight with it's normal weapons, in which case it has to use a special CCW if it has one, or it can fight using grenades.

 

That way...

 

--> Kommandos charging a vehicle can use their 4 attacks at Strength 4 and do not have to use 1 grenade with Strength 4 each

 

--> IG Sergeants with a power weapon would still be able to use grenades when fighting a vehicle.

 

--> models can allways chose not to use their meltabombs or not to use their powerfist and use frag grenades instead if they wish. (This would be similar to not firing a plasmagun and instead using the model's pistol so that the unit can still charge.)

[Seahawk]

Works for me.

[Arikel]

From what i understand, when attacking a target with an armor value, a model can either use it's base attacks and it's ccw(just as it would in a regular assault) OR if the model is equiped with krak grenades or meltabombs it may choose to make a SINGLE attack using grenades against the vehicle. Krak grenades are sre S6+1d6 armor pen, Meltabombs are s8+2d6 Armor pen, this is done on a per model basis in the unit. Frag Grenades have no str value and cannot be used in this way, you need to have kraks or melta bombs.

[nurglez]

assault grenades are str 4 :lol:

 

and I agree, however in the rules it only describes how units with grenades use grenades, it doesn't actually state if you choose...

[Grey Mage]

Ive always called it a 'grenade attack'. The rules are radically different from any other CC attack- only 1 no matter how much, weapon strengths, how it penetrates, etc- so it seems a safe bet.

[Chaplain Strauss]

Moving to a slightly different tack, can a squad split it's attacks ie. half attack with grenades, whilst the other use their close combat weapons and therefore benefit from extra attacks from charging etc?

[muadib02]

I guess it is theoretically possible. Example: Space Wolf Grey Hunter with MOTW is not even allowed to use his Krak Grenades but he still can attack when the squad uses them.

[Grey Mage]

Well, the rules for grenade attacks state 'models' so I see no reason you couldnt split your attacks- say if your sarge has a powerfist and the rest of the squad has krak grenades for example.