SM Captain Gear Choices

[Borinar]

I am bringing up the discussion of a lightning claw versus a power weapon. (not going to cover dual LC versus a Relic Blade because it depends on his role, high toughness you go Relic Blade, if your going for MEQ you go Dual Claw, if you want a SS you go Relic Blade, so generally go RB)

 

After looking at my calculations here is some observations of the weapons versus MEQ (4+ to wound).

 

The Power weapon with and without an extra close combat weapon will net "X" kills on the assault.

 

3+ to Hit 1.67/1.33 Respectively

4+ to Hit 1.25/1

5+ to Hit .83/.67

 

The Lightning Claw alone will net "X" kills on the assault.

 

3+ to Hit 2

4+ to Hit 1.5

5+ to Hit 1

 

Because of the Wound Re-Roll it still does better against T6.

 

That being said the Power Weapon is only better than a Chain Sword because it ignores armor saves. Go Lightning Claw every time even if you have a close combat weapon.

 

On a side note Terminator Armor on a captain is another fail option because it is over priced and gives too many negatives to it bonuses.

 

You gain relentless, with an assault weapon Yipee!...Not!

You gain a 2+ armor save, which you could have paid 15 points for artificer armor.

You get a Power Weapon and a storm bolter! Both add up to 18 Points...

You lose your grenades and bolt pistol...

You lose rhino/razorback riding.

 

So if you want a build to do the exact same for cheaper do this:

 

Captain, Artificer Armor, Power Weapon, Storm Bolter 133 versus 140

 

You want to out perform it do this:

 

Captain, Artificer Armor, Lightning Claw, Combi-Melta 140 same price but he can ride in any transport and gets a 2+ melta shot off the hip.

 

Give me a captain from DoW2 who can weild a Heavy Weapon and youll see some Terminator Captains:

 

Terminator Captain, MM/HB/ML/PC/LC/HF/AC/CML, Lightning Claw 150 yes please!

 

Here are some other price disconnects for gear combos:

 

Term Capt Dual LC 155

AA Capt Dual LC 145

 

Term Capt TH/SS 170

AA Capt TH/SS 160

 

Term Capt, LC, Combi-Melta 150

AA Capt, LC, Combi-Melta 140

 

Notice a 10 point (i miss my +1 attack from honors) divergence?

[Wildfire]

A common fallacy in wound generation is to assume all opponents are MEq. Unfortunately, the lower the T the better the powersword does vs. the lightning claw. Also the lower the attacks the model has the better the power weapon/pistol combo does compared to a lightning claw.

 

I would agree that a termie captain is almost never desirable unless you're intending to teleport him.

[Borinar]

I choose to evaluate it at MEQ because Toughness 4 is a good average. Even Eldar are a 3+ to would, the Power Weapon only pulls barely ahead when rolling a 2+ to wound which with a str 4 Weapon means they have to be Toughness 2, so gretchin should fear the power weapon.

 

Yes Seargents with 2 base attacks are safe with thier power weapons IF they have an additional close combat weapon for the bonus attack. This was a talk about the Space Marine Captains.

[DarkGuard]

It still might be worth taking a look at the odds of wounding toughness 3 for the both of them. That being said, I think the general consensus for a long time has always been lightning claw>power weapon and arty armour>termy armour, due to effectiveness and points etc. However, thanks for the doing the work to show us why this is true ;).

[Chaplain Strauss]

I normally give my Captain Artificer Armour as standard but have been wondering of late, that since he's usually part of a squad that it's not really necessary. Does he really get 15 points of beneifts from it?

[Borinar]

In the 3+ bracket the LC still beats the Power weapon and PW+1. I just didnt bother because grots are the only model that should fear the power weapon on a captain over a LC. I did a spreadsheet but copy paste doesnt translate well to B&CS.

 

Really you gain about 10 points by going AA over TDA if you look at my examples.

 

I put this out for two reasons, I have a Term Captain i was gifted that i dont use and want to just use him as a Term Sgt. Also i browse the army lists and note that many many people gear thier captains wrong, mainly power weapon with a two handed weapon.

[Wildfire]

Also i browse the army lists and note that many many people gear thier captains wrong, mainly power weapon with a two handed weapon.

 

Wrong is a strong word. It is certainly true (barring some sort of house rule) that a lightning claw will statistically deal more wounds in that situation. I think that even the most inexperienced players can see this. However, for many people actual game play is a secondary (or tertiary) concern. Personal fluff or modeling may be more important than tabletop effectiveness.

[Borinar]

Also i browse the army lists and note that many many people gear thier captains wrong, mainly power weapon with a two handed weapon.

 

Wrong is a strong word. It is certainly true (barring some sort of house rule) that a lightning claw will statistically deal more wounds in that situation. I think that even the most inexperienced players can see this. However, for many people actual game play is a secondary (or tertiary) concern. Personal fluff or modeling may be more important than tabletop effectiveness.

 

Incorrect Sir, when they say "review my list and tell me how to make it better" wrong is wrong.

[Disruptor_fe404]

It's been math-hammered out that on a model with a base of two Attacks or more, the lightning claw is equal to or better than a power weapon and boltpistol.

[DarkGuard]

I normally give my Captain Artificer Armour as standard but have been wondering of late, that since he's usually part of a squad that it's not really necessary. Does he really get 15 points of beneifts from it?

 

The simple answer is yes. When in a squad you can allocate wounds to him to protect other members, and with 3 wounds you're likely to do so. With arty armour you make it less likely that he will take wounds, allowing you to allocate to him more. The same with the storm shield, as you can now allocate plasma wounds to him without fear of instant death and with a reasonable chance of success.

 

@Borinar: my Captain has a power sword and a bolter, and he does quite well. No, wait a moment, it's a relic blade :D. Seriously, I think we see a lot of those Captains around because of the Assault on Black Reach box set, so a lot of people don't have a choice on equipment. The simplest thing is to outfit him like I outfit mine, relic blade and boltgun, with arty armour, digi weapons and hellfire rounds all options.

[Borinar]

I normally give my Captain Artificer Armour as standard but have been wondering of late, that since he's usually part of a squad that it's not really necessary. Does he really get 15 points of beneifts from it?

 

The simple answer is yes. When in a squad you can allocate wounds to him to protect other members, and with 3 wounds you're likely to do so. With arty armour you make it less likely that he will take wounds, allowing you to allocate to him more. The same with the storm shield, as you can now allocate plasma wounds to him without fear of instant death and with a reasonable chance of success.

 

@Borinar: my Captain has a power sword and a bolter, and he does quite well. No, wait a moment, it's a relic blade B). Seriously, I think we see a lot of those Captains around because of the Assault on Black Reach box set, so a lot of people don't have a choice on equipment. The simplest thing is to outfit him like I outfit mine, relic blade and boltgun, with arty armour, digi weapons and hellfire rounds all options.

 

And again this is an analysis of 1 weapon versus another and 1 armor versus another. NOT what kind of model you think people are stuck with. Of course a Relic Blade does better than a Single LC I stated that at the beginning. My personal strategy for equipment is to procure commander box sets in order to get combi-weapons and CC weapons. If a person is asking "how do I build my captain better?" then AoBR is not going to be their only option (forever).

 

When I look at a list that someone puts out to the forum I don't look at what units they bring from a will this work tactically (that's their job to play test what works for them) I look at unit structure, upgrades, etc. The most common is the Power Weapon which mathematically is inferior. The only time anyone takes Term armor on a captain its for fluff, which you cant beat. I look for efficiency and points. Yes if everyone approached the game like I do then yes you would never see a Power Weapon on a Captain/Chapter Master ever. But if no one used that bit, I bet Games Workshop would upgrade it eventually.

 

My wish far far away in the night sky is to see the Power Weapon become the Frost Weapon from C:SW. Because it needs something to make it comparable with the LC.

[DerekLee688]

Woot, expensive options are better. If the Power Weapon is more comparable with the LC then it would be more expensive, but it's a sergent weapon anyway, just like the Power Fist. If you spend the points on a captain, then you're getting him for bike troops, command squad, AA wounds, or he's just the best scrapper. If you want him because of his WS/I then at least give him a LC if not Relic Blade.

[DarkGuard]

And again this is an analysis of 1 weapon versus another and 1 armor versus another. NOT what kind of model you think people are stuck with. Of course a Relic Blade does better than a Single LC I stated that at the beginning. My personal strategy for equipment is to procure commander box sets in order to get combi-weapons and CC weapons. If a person is asking "how do I build my captain better?" then AoBR is not going to be their only option (forever).

 

When I look at a list that someone puts out to the forum I don't look at what units they bring from a will this work tactically (that's their job to play test what works for them) I look at unit structure, upgrades, etc. The most common is the Power Weapon which mathematically is inferior. The only time anyone takes Term armor on a captain its for fluff, which you cant beat. I look for efficiency and points. Yes if everyone approached the game like I do then yes you would never see a Power Weapon on a Captain/Chapter Master ever. But if no one used that bit, I bet Games Workshop would upgrade it eventually.

 

My wish far far away in the night sky is to see the Power Weapon become the Frost Weapon from C:SW. Because it needs something to make it comparable with the LC.

 

And I completely understand and agree with you. You can bet that if someone wants a critique on their army list and their Captain has a power sword I'll be telling them to swap it for a lightning claw or upgrade to a pair of lightning claws or a relic blade, because it will perform on the tabletop better. I was just passing a comment as to why I believe there are quite a few Captains with power sword and boltgun, nothing more. I wasn't challenging your stance on the issue of effective Captain wargear and what equipment is better.

[Wildfire]

Incorrect Sir, when they say "review my list and tell me how to make it better" wrong is wrong.

 

I disagree. Less killy is not always "wrong". It depends on your point of view.

[spartan249]

Incorrect Sir, when they say "review my list and tell me how to make it better" wrong is wrong.

 

I disagree. Less killy is not always "wrong". It depends on your point of view.

 

This is an argument for argument's sake. Someone who's asking for tangible advice about how to increase their army list's ability to deal damage wants information on how to make their army more efficient. If the requester doesn't want that, then they are probably non-existent, as they would never have occasion to ask for help.

 

Anyway, Captains are a rather useless HQ, and are only useful when you want to unlock bikers as troops. As such, the PW vs LC choice really only comes down to aesthetics, as he sucks big time for his points worth either way.

[Grey Mage]

Depends on how you use him- Ive seen captains make back twice their points, and give a battle focus.

 

As for the LC vs. PW debate- the lighting claw, ie single claw, has a better average kills, but a lower potential kill rate.

 

For some people that potential is worth the decrease in straight efficiency. Personally, Im often one of them.

 

Now, 2 claws is obviously better, but then were looking more at comparing it to the relicblade- wich is better vs most opponents and has the ability to take on vehicles, wraithlords, et all that a pair of LCs cannot.

 

*shrugs*

[Schultzhoffen]

As has been said, Captains are not the best HQ choice.

 

SM are not really a CC army - yes, they can do it to a certain extent (unless you build the army around SS/TH Terminators) but most other army CC troops are better. SM are closer to a shooty army (not as good as Tau/Eldar/IG but ok). Mainly they're "Jack of All Trades..." Maybe because of this Captains are rather meh. Unless you're investing plenty in Terminator Armour, TASquad, LRC, etc (what..around 650 points?)

 

How much can a CC captain contribute (ignoring biker builds, for example)? 1-4 kills?

 

A Chaplain buffing Terminators contributes more.

 

A librarian with Hood, Avenger, Null Zone, Gate, conttributes more.

 

Then again, I prefer Sternguard and Tacticals backed up by Predators and LS Typhoons.

[DarkGuard]

It's all situational really, and foot Captain's themselves can do more damage and more for your force than any of the choices you describe Schultzhoffen. Librarian with psychic hood, Avenger and Null Zone is pretty good for points isn't it? But what about when it faces an army with no invulnerable saves? Armies such as mine, or my mate's mech Blood Angels? Sure you've got Avenger, but then you've got to pass a test to use it, get people out of transports, and if there's psychic defence hope you get through it.

 

And there seems to be a misconception that a psychic hood makes all your psychic problems go away. It doesn't. You and your opponent roll a die, add that to your leadership test, and compare scores. The vast majority of psykers are Ld10, so with the exception of the minority and any modifiers (like the Broodlord's Aura of Dismay) it turns into a roll off. That your opponent has an advantage on because you have to beat him. I don't know about some people here but my psychic hood actually seems to work about 10% of the time, it only sticks about because of points and potential.

 

That being said, in my list I'd love to stick my Captain with hellfire bolter and relic blade into my Sternguard squads. Hellfire rounds match with theirs, and when they inevitably get shot at I can put a couple of wounds on my Captain more safely than my Libby, or if they get assaulted I guarantee you that my Captain will do more damage than my Libby.

 

And of course the infamous Captain vs Chaplain debate. Captain wins for me, nearly every time. Yeah the Chaplain is cheaper and has all those re-rolls, but to get his benefits he needs to be combat, and he sucks in combat. The Captain, on the other hand, will contribute a lot more to combat in subsequent turns, and you want to be in combat for at least two player turns to avoid the inevitable shooting at your unit.

 

And I do feel it's a bit of a myth that Captain's are substandard in C:SM because we're a shooting army. We're a shooting army who's best unit is Hammernators, a close combat unit. Huh?! Sorry, but a Captain can be a brilliant choice if only to get some counter-attacking punch into the list, protecting your shooting squads from enemy melee units or getting into combat with your enemy's shooting units. We also have much better Captain's than Blood Angels. My Blood Angel friend moans about this all the time, so why not use them?

 

I don't know, it just seems to me that in regards to Captains and Chapter Masters and all that people are jumping on the bandwagon, quite simply the Libby bandwagon. At the moment it seems that you cannot make even a half way competitive list without taking a Libby as HQ. Have a bit of imagination, inventiveness, and make that Captain work. It has so much gear that it can fulfil multiple roles. I know that for my lists at the moment I'm trying to get to use my Captain more as I love the model I made for it, but also because I'm playing a 3rd Company list. The Captain leads the Battle Company, not the Libby, it's just a shame that this most powerful of warriors seems to be overshadowed by his advisor. Captain's have hardly changed during additions, they have always been combat powerhouses and will always be combat powerhouses. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't take them, but rather we should use them in that way, rather than comparing them with the Libby. They fulfil different functions after all.

 

Sorry about that rant, just so people know this wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and I apologize if some people may have taken it personally and got offended. It's just something I need to get out after seeing the options in the C:SM marginalized to only a few for an effective list to work, I know I'm going to try and break free of this as soon as I can.

[Schultzhoffen]

I'm pretty laid back, mate, I never take offense. Besides, you do have valid points.

 

In the end it is all subjective, anyhow. When I ran Black Templars, a CC army I had a tooled up marshall and a Chaplain.

 

In my Chaos army I have a winged DP of Nurgle.

 

In my Blood Angels army I have a Reclusiarch leading DC

 

In my Ultramarine army I have a Librarian attached to a Sternguard squad.

 

Its all about what you want the HQ to do/how he fits in with the rest of your army. Hammernators are good but expensive and require you to build a list around them. I prefer not to. Therefore a CC Captain does not fit in my list.

 

I am of the opinion that a CC captain needs a strong CC unit because he does not do THAT much by himself (when compared with a SW Lord, DPrince, Swarmlord, Ork Warboss or BA Reclusiarch). If you do this (hammernators-LRC, etc) you are sacrificing something else.

 

While that may be valid/win you games, I prefer to focus on the shooting aspect of C:SM - Tacticals, Sternguard, LSTyphoons and Auto/Las Preds.

 

Besides, don't underestimate Sternguard in CC at a pinch (or a Librarian with the correct Psychic Power). While a Hood doesn't ALWAYS work, I'd rather have one than not. Playing Tyranids and Eldar a lot tends to make one choose a hood.

 

A lot would depend on who your regular opponents are.

[Wildfire]

I just hate it when people say something is "wrong" to use in this game. Not trying to be argumentative, just make you realize that your view is an opinion not a fact. GM gave a good example of an in-game concern that might cause one to take a power sword over a lightnign claw.

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty laid back, mate, I never take offense. Besides, you do have valid points.

 

In the end it is all subjective, anyhow. When I ran Black Templars, a CC army I had a tooled up marshall and a Chaplain.

 

In my Chaos army I have a winged DP of Nurgle.

 

In my Blood Angels army I have a Reclusiarch leading DC

 

In my Ultramarine army I have a Librarian attached to a Sternguard squad.

 

Its all about what you want the HQ to do/how he fits in with the rest of your army. Hammernators are good but expensive and require you to build a list around them. I prefer not to. Therefore a CC Captain does not fit in my list.

 

I am of the opinion that a CC captain needs a strong CC unit because he does not do THAT much by himself (when compared with a SW Lord, DPrince, Swarmlord, Ork Warboss or BA Reclusiarch). If you do this (hammernators-LRC, etc) you are sacrificing something else.

 

While that may be valid/win you games, I prefer to focus on the shooting aspect of C:SM - Tacticals, Sternguard, LSTyphoons and Auto/Las Preds.

 

Besides, don't underestimate Sternguard in CC at a pinch (or a Librarian with the correct Psychic Power). While a Hood doesn't ALWAYS work, I'd rather have one than not. Playing Tyranids and Eldar a lot tends to make one choose a hood.

 

A lot would depend on who your regular opponents are.

 

Sounds like I approach C:SM in a similar way to you. I don't use any Terminators at all, and if I did it would be of the shooting variety. I have used a Libby extensively, especially when being competitive, but at times I want to use my Captain, because it just feels right to me. And I agree about Sternguard in combat, they're not shabby, though I feel the Captain helps them out better there than a Libby due to his high weapon skill, initiative, wounds attacks, better wargear etc. For me the Libby is just a budget HQ choice at the moment, but if I'm being honest it's hard to pass up on Null Zone when you're running two Vindicators :).