Baba Lem Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I was playing a game versus Eldar tonight. I used a few squads with jump packs. One of them, was a Vanguard Squad with five marines. So they arrived on turn 2, doing a Heroic Intervention. They scattered only two inches, perfectly in the flank of an Eldar army, juicy guardians and light walkers three inches away. Now, the issue. :blush: I deep-struck two RAS and a Priest, who was on his own, to their left. Scattering had the priest come in 2" with the Vanguard. Him being an IC, he joined the Vanguard at the end of the movement phase. No more Heroic Intervention, no more charge. I couldn't argue anything in the rules that'd have kept him from joining the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Oh man, that is harsh. I had to reread the rule to make sure, and that last line is killer. Up to it, I was thinking, "Nah, this could totally be done"... I'd have thrown myself on my opponent's mercy and bargained for it XD lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I cant help it. Cool story bro. Seriously that sucks, is there a reason you didnt want the priest in one RAS squad? even if it was combat squaded and used to back up the other while the priest just chilled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ouch! I always attach my priests to units before the drop, to avoid that risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcard101 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Somehow I think that the Priest shouldn't be able to join the Vanguard Veterans, because he Deep-striked. For an IC to join a unit he must MOVE to join that unit, or be within 2" after it MOVES. Just my 2 cents... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yeah that really sucks. Yet TBH I am not sure why one would ever DS a Sang.Priest on their own. As a 1 wound character that is just begging for them to be shot to pieces and to watch your minimum 75 points go up in smoke. These folks should always be attached to another squad...but I guess you just learnt that lesson. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Yorei Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 actually ICs do not automatically join the unit. you must declare it is joining. if you dont want it to join tell your opponent he isnt joining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhx711 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Since the HI is declared prior to the DS scatter being rolled for the VV, the Priest would have been coming down with the VV to negate the HI. I would have discussed that fact with my oppoent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 actually ICs do not automatically join the unit. you must declare it is joining. if you dont want it to join tell your opponent he isnt joining. No it's pretty clear, he does join the unit. However, if a 2nd squad had landed within 2" of the priest, you could then 'declare' that the priest joins that other unit, instead of your VV. Otherwise he automatically joins. Since the HI is declared prior to the DS scatter being rolled for the VV, the Priest would have been coming down with the VV to negate the HI. I would have discussed that fact with my oppoent. This is a very good point. You declare the HI before you even roll the dice, at which point the SP is not part of the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Lem Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 I argued that, in the inversion of the HI rule. But he was kind of a :D person, and it wasn't backed by the RAW rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I argued that, in the inversion of the HI rule. But he was kind of a :lol: person, and it wasn't backed by the RAW rules. I don't see anything in the rules that says an IC automatically joins a unit within 2". In fact, RAW, you could argue that as you do not intend to join that unit you must stop your scatter movement 2" from the VV. It's just as valid an interpretation as your opponents'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9K Painting Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Nowhere in the rules are you FORCED to join another squad, you have the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Nowhere in the rules are you FORCED to join another squad, you have the option. I dunno the rules seem pretty clear to me. Page 48, first bullet-ed paragraph on left... specifically this part, "if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase." The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Actually you did have a choice. You could have lost the SP. At this point he would have been a unit of 1 that came in too close to another unit during the DS and would have suffered a DS mishap. Granted you could get lucky and just stall him a turn, buts its all a matter of whether it is worth it to lose him to get the charge, or if he is important enough to go thru with it. Of course this is a moot point since, like Dhx711 said, HI was already declared prior to the jump when there is no IC in the unit and the jump was sucessfull. There are no rules that say because an IC joined during a fluke of the drop that HI is cancelled, so it is not. He would have to find backing in the RAW to prevent your HI, not the other way around. I am not suggesting people start DSing their SPs close to VVs to get them to join and bypass the HI rules, but by the same token if a fluke happens you should not be penalized by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john001 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Seems pretty clear to me that you loose the ability and is backed by RAW. PG 48 of the rulebook 'Special Rules' Yes you declare HI before anything happens, but if that IC joins the unit, special rules that are normaly confered to the unit may be lost, in this case they are. The heroic intervention rule is pretty clear, it states 'Vanguard Veteran squad only' so if an IC joins that squad, he does not have the rule, the rule is not confered upon him, theerefore the squad looses the rule. Think of it like this you have the ability to do something, but it is easily taken away from you based on a situation. You have the ability to perform an assault after deepstriking, this requires you to declare you are using a special rule, aslong as requirements are met, you have the ability to assault in the assault phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Yeah the more I think about it, the more I think john001 is dead on. The rules can really only work this way. Even IF somehow the VV did not lose the HI power - they have a member of the unit now that cannot assault out of deep-strike (the priest) so therefor they cannot assault either. So I think the only possible legal solutions would be, deep-strike another unit within 2" of the priest on that turn (if all goes well), or use Corbulo's mulligan rule (if you have him). Otherwise the Priest has to join the unit, and therefore the unit cannot assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Nowhere in the rules are you FORCED to join another squad, you have the option. I dunno the rules seem pretty clear to me. Page 48, first bullet-ed paragraph on left... specifically this part, "if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase." The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC. As I said earlier, that could easily be read to stop your scatter move from taking you within 2" of a unit that you do not intend to join. If someone can identify exactly where it says that an IC must join a single unit that is within 2" then fair enough, but I don't think the rules explicitly state that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Nowhere in the rules are you FORCED to join another squad, you have the option. I dunno the rules seem pretty clear to me. Page 48, first bullet-ed paragraph on left... specifically this part, "if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase." The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC. As I said earlier, that could easily be read to stop your scatter move from taking you within 2" of a unit that you do not intend to join. If someone can identify exactly where it says that an IC must join a single unit that is within 2" then fair enough, but I don't think the rules explicitly state that. Yeah but the scatter rules don't work like that either. I think you are making up rules with that... you can never just decide to alter your scatter as such. I think if you read page 48 it is pretty clear - if your IC is within 2" of another unit at the end of your movement phase - he joins that unit. There is NO exception other than previously noted (multiple units within 2"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fury Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Doesn't the new GW FAQ address a situation where an IC and a squad are not able to disembark from a transport more than 2" apart? And IIRC they say just to tell the opponent that they are not joined. I'd have to go double check, but that would set a precedence for being within 2" and not joining together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 although it doesnt affect this case. There is a case to be made for the HI being a special form of deepstrike whcih would allow an IC to join if he were already on the board and able to assault. Unfortunately even if that were the case the Priest can still not make an assault move and the squad has to do the same. Its all or nothing. This is very similar to say a priest with adev squad in a forest. The priest breaks off to walk out and intercept something going for the Devs which would normally allow them to fire but rolls 2,2,1 on his DT test and now falls short auto joining back to the Devs and making them all count as moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I didn't see it in the BA faq, is it in the main rulebook faq perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Doesn't the new GW FAQ address a situation where an IC and a squad are not able to disembark from a transport more than 2" apart? And IIRC they say just to tell the opponent that they are not joined. I'd have to go double check, but that would set a precedence for being within 2" and not joining together. Ok you meant this: Q: If an Independent Character is unable to end his move over 2” away from a friendly unit that he cannot join, for example he has exited a vehicle after it has moved, can he be placed? (p48) A: Yes, simply place him as far away from the unit(s) that he cannot join as he is allowed to go. Which still doesn't apply in our case because the SP can join the unit - we just don't want him to! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john001 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 although it doesnt affect this case. There is a case to be made for the HI being a special form of deepstrike whcih would allow an IC to join if he were already on the board and able to assault. Unfortunately even if that were the case the Priest can still not make an assault move and the squad has to do the same. Its all or nothing. In this particular case, I cant see any reason for that unit not being able to assault If the IC is already on the table, and the vanguard deepstrike down, and the IC moves to become part of that unit there is nothing stoping that unit for assaulting as A - The priest is able to perform as assault move B - The Vanguard Squad declare heroic intervention, before the priest joins the unit, therefore they are allowed to perform an assault move C - The ability (Heroic Intervention) may not be carried out if an IC has joined the unit, in this case The ability has been used before the IC has joined the unit, the unit may still assault by my terms of reading. The way I see it - 5 man vanguard squad performing heroic intervention - I Declare I am using Heroic Intervention Has an IC joined this unit when I declare I am using the ability - No The squad now has the ability to perform as assault move after deepstrike period. The restrictions for performing this move now fall under the normal rules for assaulting if an IC joins the unit at this point they may still perform there assault move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAGABOND Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 You could ran the SP a few inches and still gained the FC and FNP depending how far he ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 You could ran the SP a few inches and still gained the FC and FNP depending how far he ran. Except that he is considered part of that unit, at the end of his movement phase. Running happens in the shooting phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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