Heroic... but then that guy appeared.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

although it doesnt affect this case. There is a case to be made for the HI being a special form of deepstrike whcih would allow an IC to join if he were already on the board and able to assault. Unfortunately even if that were the case the Priest can still not make an assault move and the squad has to do the same. Its all or nothing.

 

In this particular case, I cant see any reason for that unit not being able to assault

 

If the IC is already on the table, and the vanguard deepstrike down, and the IC moves to become part of that unit there is nothing stoping that unit for assaulting as

 

A - The priest is able to perform as assault move

B - The Vanguard Squad declare heroic intervention, before the priest joins the unit, therefore they are allowed to perform an assault move

C - The ability (Heroic Intervention) may not be carried out if an IC has joined the unit, in this case The ability has been used before the IC has joined the unit, the unit may still assault by my terms of reading.

The way I see it -

 

5 man vanguard squad performing heroic intervention -

I Declare I am using Heroic Intervention

Has an IC joined this unit when I declare I am using the ability - No

The squad now has the ability to perform as assault move after deepstrike period. The restrictions for performing this move now fall under the normal rules for assaulting if an IC joins the unit at this point they may still perform there assault move.

 

I don't agree that it works like this... even though you declare the HI before rolling the DS, the rules for HI are quite specific. I see the argument you are trying to make; HI says very plainly however, "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the VV squad." Period... it doesn't even need to mention when declared or joined etc.

 

What would certainly work however; if you have a SP already on the table, eligible for assault - he only has to end his movement phase MORE than 2" away from the VV and he gets to move after they arrive. He can even move closer to the assault-target, as long as he will end up within 2.1" - 6" of the VV, to ensure that they gain his bonuses as he only joins the unit at the end of the 'movement' phase, and on the next turn it won't matter anyway.

[VAGABOND]

Oh crap so it is, my heads not with it tonight at all. :woot:

[Grimtooth]

although it doesnt affect this case. There is a case to be made for the HI being a special form of deepstrike whcih would allow an IC to join if he were already on the board and able to assault. Unfortunately even if that were the case the Priest can still not make an assault move and the squad has to do the same. Its all or nothing.

 

In this particular case, I cant see any reason for that unit not being able to assault

 

If the IC is already on the table, and the vanguard deepstrike down, and the IC moves to become part of that unit there is nothing stoping that unit for assaulting as

 

A - The priest is able to perform as assault move

B - The Vanguard Squad declare heroic intervention, before the priest joins the unit, therefore they are allowed to perform an assault move

C - The ability (Heroic Intervention) may not be carried out if an IC has joined the unit, in this case The ability has been used before the IC has joined the unit, the unit may still assault by my terms of reading.

The way I see it -

 

5 man vanguard squad performing heroic intervention -

I Declare I am using Heroic Intervention

Has an IC joined this unit when I declare I am using the ability - No

The squad now has the ability to perform as assault move after deepstrike period. The restrictions for performing this move now fall under the normal rules for assaulting if an IC joins the unit at this point they may still perform there assault move.

 

Declare =/= Use

 

For example, I declare an assault. That doesn't mean that unit has assaulted. I could be out of range and the result is a failed assault and my unit does not move at all. You declare that you are going to use HI, but you have not yet assaulted after deepstriking, you could have scattered out of assault range or suffered a mishap. You declare HI, you deepstrike as normal, and the using the HI ability, you assault after deepstriking.

 

And has been mentioned, there is no timeline restriction set for when an IC joining a VV unit negates the ability to assault after deepstriking. I only have to point out that an IC has joined the VV unit and if HI was declared, they can no longer use the ability.

[Morticon]

Brother Ramses has it right.

 

Its completely inconsequential whether or not you make a declaration or not.

You can declare a charge that fails due to DT.

You can declare HI that fails because you end your move within 2" of an IC.

[d503]

You could ran the SP a few inches and still gained the FC and FNP depending how far he ran.

 

Except that he is considered part of that unit, at the end of his movement phase. Running happens in the shooting phase.

 

Both Land in the movement phase.

In the shooting phase the vets chill, and the priest runs up to 6" away, removing him from the unit.

In the assault phase, the vets charge the squishy eldar fools.

 

This is possible, no?

[Emperors Immortals]

I think you need to detach at end of phase, but cant move till next movement phase IIRC.

 

 

what if the priests scatter had him hit an intervening unit? Would he continue his scatter to teh other side of the unit or attach as soon as he hits it?

[Morollan]

Nowhere in the rules are you FORCED to join another squad, you have the option.

 

I dunno the rules seem pretty clear to me. Page 48, first bullet-ed paragraph on left... specifically this part, "if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC.

 

As I said earlier, that could easily be read to stop your scatter move from taking you within 2" of a unit that you do not intend to join. If someone can identify exactly where it says that an IC must join a single unit that is within 2" then fair enough, but I don't think the rules explicitly state that.

 

Yeah but the scatter rules don't work like that either. I think you are making up rules with that... you can never just decide to alter your scatter as such. I think if you read page 48 it is pretty clear - if your IC is within 2" of another unit at the end of your movement phase - he joins that unit. There is NO exception other than previously noted (multiple units within 2").

 

You may think it's clear but it's not what is written. The only reference to being forced to join a unit is regarding multiple units within 2". You can argue that the rules imply that the IC must join but they do not state it. I'm also in two minds over whether it was intended that a character be forced to join a unit against it's will.

 

Of course, the chances of this occurring are so slim that I doubt any of us will ever face it. Dropping an SP on his own was pretty silly. Dropping him close enough to other units that he could scatter into them was also silly. Having him land precisely between 1" and 2" away from one of the only units in the game that would suffer from having him join them..priceless!

[BOBMAKENZIE]

although in alot of ways Mort is right. I would posit that HI is a form of deep strike. In much the same way that Dormant is a special type of reserves or chaemleonic scales is. It is therefore used at the time of deep strike and it ends there allowing ICs to join afterward (and for them to assault only so long as all memebers are able!). I think this is perhaps supported by the fact that the squad cannot fire or run when it Interventions no matter if it scatters into a good position or not. If these elements to the rules were purely optional or temporary the vanguard would have the option to charge so long as they didnt shoot or run. Remeber you have to declare your HI when they arrive it looked to me as though the IC clause is just preventing you from Activating it at the time of deepstrike.

[JamesI]

You could ran the SP a few inches and still gained the FC and FNP depending how far he ran.

 

Except that he is considered part of that unit, at the end of his movement phase. Running happens in the shooting phase.

 

Both Land in the movement phase.

In the shooting phase the vets chill, and the priest runs up to 6" away, removing him from the unit.

In the assault phase, the vets charge the squishy eldar fools.

 

This is possible, no?

No, running is in the shooting phase. At that time the priest is attached and can not leave coherency until the next movement phase.

[Grimtooth]

Nowhere in the rules are you FORCED to join another squad, you have the option.

 

I dunno the rules seem pretty clear to me. Page 48, first bullet-ed paragraph on left... specifically this part, "if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC.

 

As I said earlier, that could easily be read to stop your scatter move from taking you within 2" of a unit that you do not intend to join. If someone can identify exactly where it says that an IC must join a single unit that is within 2" then fair enough, but I don't think the rules explicitly state that.

 

Yeah but the scatter rules don't work like that either. I think you are making up rules with that... you can never just decide to alter your scatter as such. I think if you read page 48 it is pretty clear - if your IC is within 2" of another unit at the end of your movement phase - he joins that unit. There is NO exception other than previously noted (multiple units within 2").

 

You may think it's clear but it's not what is written. The only reference to being forced to join a unit is regarding multiple units within 2". You can argue that the rules

 

 

imply that the IC must join but they do not state it. I'm also in two minds over whether it was intended that a character be forced to join a unit against it's will.

 

Of course, the chances of this occurring are so slim that I doubt any of us will ever face it. Dropping an SP on his own was pretty silly. Dropping him close enough to other units that he could scatter into them was also silly. Having him land precisely between 1" and 2" away from one of the only units in the game that would suffer from having him join them..priceless!

 

The issue that you are not realizing is that the scatter from a deepstrike is not voluntary. If it moves your IC to within 2" of a unit, it is involuntarily forcing that IC to join that unit. You point out the voluntary actions of an IC joining or leaving a unit, yet that is not the case here. His scatter movement is not optional, it is required. Where he ends up is where he ends up. At that point you check the point where he ends up; difficult terrain, dangerous terrain, impassable terrain, or in this case, within 2" of a unit and therefore forced to join them.

[Morollan]

The issue that you are not realizing is that the scatter from a deepstrike is not voluntary. If it moves your IC to within 2" of a unit, it is involuntarily forcing that IC to join that unit. You point out the voluntary actions of an IC joining or leaving a unit, yet that is not the case here. His scatter movement is not optional, it is required. Where he ends up is where he ends up. At that point you check the point where he ends up; difficult terrain, dangerous terrain, impassable terrain, or in this case, within 2" of a unit and therefore forced to join them.

 

I fully realise that scatter is not a voluntary move. That however is entirely irrelevant. The point that you seem to be missing though is that the rules do not state that you automatically join a unit if you end up within 2" of it.

[JamesI]

The issue that you are not realizing is that the scatter from a deepstrike is not voluntary. If it moves your IC to within 2" of a unit, it is involuntarily forcing that IC to join that unit. You point out the voluntary actions of an IC joining or leaving a unit, yet that is not the case here. His scatter movement is not optional, it is required. Where he ends up is where he ends up. At that point you check the point where he ends up; difficult terrain, dangerous terrain, impassable terrain, or in this case, within 2" of a unit and therefore forced to join them.

 

I fully realise that scatter is not a voluntary move. That however is entirely irrelevant. The point that you seem to be missing though is that the rules do not state that you automatically join a unit if you end up within 2" of it.

Actually, yes they do.

[Morollan]

The issue that you are not realizing is that the scatter from a deepstrike is not voluntary. If it moves your IC to within 2" of a unit, it is involuntarily forcing that IC to join that unit. You point out the voluntary actions of an IC joining or leaving a unit, yet that is not the case here. His scatter movement is not optional, it is required. Where he ends up is where he ends up. At that point you check the point where he ends up; difficult terrain, dangerous terrain, impassable terrain, or in this case, within 2" of a unit and therefore forced to join them.

 

I fully realise that scatter is not a voluntary move. That however is entirely irrelevant. The point that you seem to be missing though is that the rules do not state that you automatically join a unit if you end up within 2" of it.

Actually, yes they do.

 

Care to quote them then? Because nobody has managed to do so yet in this thread, which is usually a good sign that the rules don't exist.

[JamesI]

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I can quote them later tonight when I get home.

 

But the rules state if an IC ends up within 2 inches of a unit he must join that unit.

[Spacefrisian]

P48 is pretty clear about it i, just like HI rule is, black and white stuff.

[Morollan]

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I can quote them later tonight when I get home.

 

But the rules state if an IC ends up within 2 inches of a unit he must join that unit.

 

I await the quote then.

[JamesI]

Morollan, as someone has already quoted the rule that states you must end your movement mroe than 2 inches away from a unit you don't want to join, can you give a quote that allows you to stop your scatter without moving the full distance?

 

"if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC.

[Morollan]

Morollan, as someone has already quoted the rule that states you must end your movement mroe than 2 inches away from a unit you don't want to join, can you give a quote that allows you to stop your scatter without moving the full distance?

 

"if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC.

 

Exactly! The rules simply do not state what happens when there is only a single unit and no mention whatsoever is made of being forced to join against your will.

[JamesI]

"if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

So the priest is within 2 inches, it has to join.

 

Its clear this is not going to be solved here. I'm flinging this discussion to the OR forum.

[Grey Mage]

Morollan, as someone has already quoted the rule that states you must end your movement mroe than 2 inches away from a unit you don't want to join, can you give a quote that allows you to stop your scatter without moving the full distance?

 

"if a character does not intent to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

The part about choosing or 'declaring' only applies to the scenario where multiple units are within 2" of the IC.

 

Exactly! The rules simply do not state what happens when there is only a single unit and no mention whatsoever is made of being forced to join against your will.

Yes, it does- all the situations are covered:

 

1) If the character isnt a part of the unit itll be more than 2" away at the end of the movement phase.

ergo:

2) If hes within 2" at the end of the movement phase, he must have intended to join.

 

Because you dont have an option.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Yeah I had already quoted that... I don't really see how you are not understanding this to be honest.

 

How does an IC join a unit? - he moves within 2" of the unit.

How does an IC keep from joining a unit? - ..."it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 

All of the situations are covered.

[Spacefrisian]

And to add on the Heroic intervention ruling (qoute from p 27 BA dex)

 

"the vanguard squad cannot shoot (or run) that turn but can assault (provided they are close enough). This ability cannot be used if an ic has joined the squad."

 

(Notice that it never states when the ic would have joined before or after DS)

[Grimtooth]

And to add on the Heroic intervention ruling (qoute from p 27 BA dex)

 

"the vanguard squad cannot shoot (or run) that turn but can assault (provided they are close enough). This ability cannot be used if an ic has joined the squad."

 

(Notice that it never states when the ic would have joined before or after DS)

 

There is a timeline hinted within the IC rules for leaving and joining a unit because that condition is checked at the end of the IC movement, which of course is before the Assault Phase when the ability is used.

 

As I said, Declare =/= Use.

[Spacefrisian]

Kuch kuch

 

Declare = see if able to = use if possible

[Wildfire]

All this argument can be avoided by one simple thing: don't deep strike your priest by himself. Because really, why would you want to? I honestly can't think of a good reason to deep strike him alone, EVER.