chaplain belisarius Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I was thinking how about for each of the "undivided" legions (im not going anywhere near the mono god legions-not opening that can of worms!) they get the following- Alpha legion-may take units of chosen as compulsory troops choices. no daemons, 0-1 cult troops allowed (so 0-1 of either berzerkers, plague marines, etc). may only take mark of chaos undivided. iron warriors-may take havocs as compulsory troop choices. no daemons, 0-1 cult troops allowed. may only take mark of chaos undivided. night lords- may take raptors as compulsory troop choices. no daemons. 0-1 cult troops allowed. may only take mark of chaos undivided. word bearers-may take possessed as compulsory troops choices. daemons are allowed. 0-1 cult troops. may only take mark of chaos undivided. black legion-may take terminators as compulsory troops choices. daemons are allowed. any number of cult troops are allowed. may take any mark of chaos. Any thoughts on this? Its just a quick, simple idea to put some clear water between all the undivided chaos legions-theres no point in coming up with excessively complicated rules in my opinion (thats GWs job!:) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 night lords- may take raptors as compulsory troop choices. no daemons. 0-1 cult troops allowed. may only take mark of chaos undivided. *twitch* Sorry, I just have a pet hate of the Night Lords being turned into the "Chaos Raven Guard" Legion, or at best "Chaos Raven Scars" Legion. They're a terror legion, something that's a lot harder to get into rules than simply "they have more Raptors". It's a fallacy that's been repeated and repeated so often, we've got people claiming the Night Lords entire First Company was comprised of Raptors, yet not a single source able to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 read lord of the night then. they had a whole company of raptors [as in legion times grand company size ] and as the talon master was made the heir to the hunter one could say that his company was first. and even if you do ignore that part of the fluff and the IA articles saying that NL were the first legion to use raptors en mass . there is still the dex fluff that say that NL did have more raptors then then any other legion. Even in the crap 3ed jj dex fluff NL had more raptors then other legions. Enough for those raptors to form their own cult and act as merc. also terror in the fluff may be all fine and well , but in a game that to a large part ignores Ld as a stat and Ld/moral test , it would not make a good base for an army . It would be like making a naval csm chapter and give their units the abilty to move through water without penality and let the tanks/transports move through impassible water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 No, Lord of the Night mentions that the Night Lords had the first Raptors, and that Sahaal (who became First Captain during the Heresy itself, not before) had a jump pack. The index Astartes article makes no mention whatsoever as to having more Raptors. There is no mention as to a whole company of them, in fact the Atramentar fought in Terminator armour when we've been shown them. They weren't simply Veteran Assault Squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Why would AL, WB's, and NL's be able to take a cult troop ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 No, Lord of the Night mentions that the Night Lords had the first Raptors, and that Sahaal (who became First Captain during the Heresy itself, not before) had a jump pack. The index Astartes article makes no mention whatsoever as to having more Raptors. There is no mention as to a whole company of them, in fact the Atramentar fought in Terminator armour when we've been shown them. They weren't simply Veteran Assault Squads. You are correct in your assertion that Night Lords are not chaos Raven Guard or White Scars... However you do seem to have a good number of raptors so deal with that aspect... in game terms it is normal for certain aspects of an army to be exagerated like a caricature of the army if you like. Oh I agree terror is nice... is they bring back something like Daemonic visage or give them something like the Tempus fugitives rules where they have the drop pods that make people within 12 take leadership tests with negative modifiers... I see The Night Lords almost like xenomorph from alien... They spend a lot of time scuttling around in air vents causing people to get worried (this is the where are they bit of a night lords attack where defenders can't get in contact with other people and maybe they hear strange noises... from their vox or elsewhere...) However when the Nightlords strike I imagine them to be fast like the aliens... a horrifying speed that brings terror to people who were already on the edge... As opposed to the Death Guard who are more like zombies... their advance isn't scary because of the speed but because nothing seems to stop them. So in my mind Raptor, bikes and other fast things (units in transports or infiltrators/scouts) make sense to me for a night lords force not because all the night lords use bikes or jump packs but because I often see them as the tip of the talon when the fight is first engaged... drop pod armies would also be great for night lords if chaos could take drop pods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 ok...give me another signature unit for night lords? i see them as a rapid srike, terror tactics sorta legion myself...:P Regarding the 0-1 cult troops-this represents, for example the iron warriors using a folish squad of berzerkers as the forlorn hope unit that storms a breach or maybe a unit of alpha legion who are starting to praise nurgle (i see this as a rare occurence in the legions-except for the black legion perhaps) any more feedback? im just trying to come up with a quick, easy way to represent the legions on the table top (its wrong that they are all the same but i dont want to go as crazy as the pete haines dex either!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Why would AL, WB's, and NL's be able to take a cult troop ?? Agreed...The old school cats still cannot bring themselves to take cult troops, its just not in our blood. However, if i am ever allowed to take possessed as a troop choice, i will be fielding 40 in my 1500 pt games :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Well, I just hate seeing any army being reduced to "want to play this army? Just use this codex, and spam this unit!" It's boring, and in the vast majority of cases, doesn't represent the force well. I'm just picky with the Night Lords because it's the army I collect, and they're so often misrepresented like this. Personally, if I were to go for an easy way to represent the Night Lords in a new codex, I'd give them Acute Senses, and every enemy model has -1 to morale and pinning tests. Maybe even give Chosen the option to take Carapace armour, but get sniper rifles in return. The problem with showing these "X Legion gets unit Y as Troops/scoring" is that it fuels these rumours that that means that X legion is basically comprised of nothing but unit Y, despite there actually being no fluff backing it up. As ADB has said regarding the Night Lords before, yes, they had more Raptors, but since the old Legions were basically only 1% Raptors, if even that, anything from there up is 'more Raptors'. Did they have entire Companies of them? No. Did one of their Captains, who only became First Captain some time after the Dropsite Massacres, wear a jump pack? Yes, but that doesn't mean much. Did the Night Lords use Terminators and tanks? Yes, very much so, what with their preferrence for over-kill when fighting, although you wouldn't assume so if you read what most people say on the internet. After all, tanks and Terminators can't sneak through bushes, because as we all know the only method of making someone scared is yelling "BOO!" as you jump out from behind a rock... Even in the Night Lords, jump packs were still rare. They were a recently rediscovered technology, after all. Yes, the Night Lords developed the Raptor squad, but they certainly didn't have enough to have the bulk of most surviving warbands being comprised of them. They've either split off to work as mercenaries, or stayed with the Legion to continue their specialisation. However, you won't find many Warbands which are comprised of almost entirely Raptors. There might be a few, but those would probably operate as simply a large mercenary group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alys Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I see Alpha Legion having cult troops as accurate, they are manipulating them into fighting the battles for/with them. Alpha Legion: USR of Infiltrate on all troop choices. 0-1 Guardsmen may be taken, (regular guard unit, with standard upgrades including chimera) which count as troops for scoring, but not part of the FoC. No Daemons, only Marks are Chaos Undivided Night Lords: Raptors can be taken as troops,and gain Furious Charge, and can assault after Deep Striking. USR is ATSKNF (why should a fear striking unit run away?!). Mark is Chaos Undivided Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 It's too bad that 40K doesn't have the Fear/Terror dynamic that Fantasy has, or that would be a simple answer to the question of Night Lords. Restoring Daemonic Visage specifically for Night Lords wouldn't be bad, but like Pinning, there are a lot of units that just wouldn't be affected by them. A part of me would like to see them get a special rule that for their first Assault or if they Deep Strike within 6" of a unit, they must immediately take a Fall Back test as if they suffered 25% shooting casualties or ran from a lost combat. But like most Night Lord concepts regarding fear and terror, we're still looking at a lot of units that would just ignore that rule. Edit: Crazy idea, but what if when a Night Lords unit causes an enemy unit to otherwise take a Leadership test, they lose the Fearless rule, all other units add +2 to their Leadership roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 See, this is why I designed my idea the way I did. There will always be hot debate on how to use the codex to represent the Legions, so let each player choose the rules they think fit their own perception and bias. Narrowing all the rules down for each Legion as specifically as OP does is going to always irritate somebody. And then there's the idea that because a unit is iconic for a Legion that this Legion is totally biased toward it, or that another Legion wouldn't or can't deploy the same configuration. Night Lords are not an all Raptor Legion, and giving them that as their only Legion benefit isn't going to do anything for people who love the Night Lords but aren't all that keen on Raptors. It also isn't going to do anything for players who want that kind of fast attack army but don't want to play Night Lords (or Blood Angels). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Regarding the 0-1 cult troops-this represents, for example the iron warriors using a folish squad of berzerkers as the forlorn hope unit that storms a breach or maybe a unit of alpha legion who are starting to praise nurgle There is fluff to support the breach assault unit in IW's going to the worship of K, that's why i didn't include them in my list of legions that shouldn't have cult troops. There is 0 fluff to support that AL started praising Nurgle (or any other chaos god). Maybe AL HQ started worshipping slanny, while the rank and fill started praising nurgle, then they thought it would be a good idea to get a bunch of oblits. So you have 2 lash DP's, PM and oblit spam, but how does that represent AL in any way ?? It would represent AL much better to have the option to give AL troops & characters the infiltrate (at a price of course). Give WB's a proper DA (4+ invul & any unit w/ in 12" is fearless). -1 Ld when vs NL's sounds good, and maybe a unit of raptors that includes a character (kind of like the DC of the BA's). Actuall just bringing back vet skills would be a very EZ way to give the undivided legions some of their identity back. Would love to see BL get something to seperate them from DIY, they are the legion of Horus and Abby, and retain the most "legion like" discipline and miltary order of all the chaos legions. Even if it was just counter attack, or bring back spikey bits, something. but BL hasn't had their own rules since 2nd ed., so I know it's not gonna happen :wub: , they're gonna be the "ehhh, take whatever you want, but you get nothing special" legion :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Having a little more of a rare thing, does not mean they are common. If we go on the new standard of 100,000 Legion members (pre-heresy), and the Night Lords had a grand company of jet pack equipped troops, they still are rare in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Personally I would have an army wide rule given out if you choose to do night lords akin to Daemonic Visage, remember that when the Night Lords do eventually attack, they have been terroizing you for god knows how long and generally making you afraid of the dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 What do you mean by "may take X as compulsory troop choices"? Does that mean you can have 2 of Unit X if the FOC has 2 compulsory Troops but less on those that don't? Sounds weird that Night Lords would not get more Raptors than other legions on Planet Strike Missions as the attacker, but as the defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 @quixus-i mean instead of taking 2 squads of chaos marines as your compulsory troops units, you can take the legion specific "signature unit" instead...hope this helped! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Lord Shamrockius Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 @quixus-i mean instead of taking 2 squads of chaos marines as your compulsory troops units, you can take the legion specific "signature unit" instead...hope this helped! :) I'm not sold. I think something along the lines of having Legion specific HQ's that allow the entire army to have a certain skill would be a good way to go. It would also allow for new and interesting special characters, possibly new unit types, new vehicles and such depending on which Legion you are taking. All of which would be fun. I also think if they are going to go down that route (which I think GW will avoid), it will lead towards separate Codex for each Legion, or at least more content in each Chaos-combined ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Wouldn't it be nice if you had layers of conversion? If a Lord has Legion/Cult attributes than it's all through the army for "free", with the Lord already paying for it. If a Lieutenant has Legion/Cult attributes, 1-2 units, or just the Troops have them for "free". If a Aspiring Champion has Legion/Cult attributes, then his unit does. Then you could get rid of the Cult units, but they would be represented depending on how you made the leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Give night lords hit and run give night vision alpha legion stealth and infiltrate give iron warriors tank hunter give word bearers fearless and allow re rolls to summoning demons and give black legion something else army wide special rules and you can represent the legions fairly well and if say alpha legion players want to take loads of chosen or night lords want loads of fast attack then thats up to them, also it would make up for all the special rules the loyalists get without being beardy and get still have very different armys. dont have special characters like vulcan just have a iron warrior ect lord upgrade option in the chaos lord wargear for instance . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 @quixus-i mean instead of taking 2 squads of chaos marines as your compulsory troops units, you can take the legion specific "signature unit" instead...hope this helped! :PThe problem I have is with those missions that don't have 2 compulsory troops units (cf. Planetstrike; Attackers). By strict reading of your rule in that case the legions could not get the two extra signature units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 good point....but they can still take more of their signature unit than anyone else! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Not if you use the rule as written. The rule is "[legion]- may take [signature Unit] as compulsory troop choices". If the FOC for the Mission for example only has 1 compulsory HQ (as is the case for the attacker in Planetstrike), the Night Lords can take exactly the same amount of Raptors as any other legion, which is 3 units as Fast Attack. No compulsory Toops means that they cannot be replaced by the Signature Unit. I'd suggest something like "In additon to their normal place in the FOC the [signature Unit] can be taken as a 0-2 Troops Choice" or simply "A [Legion] army may take up to 2 additional [signature Units] as a Troops Choice" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 First of all I am tired of players being more orthodox and restrictive than 3,5 codex. AL was able to use deamons, today I am meeting frowned looks when I put some deamons or even possessed on the table while in 3,5 they were fully usable in AL army. Then in AL fluff is outright stated they commonly team up with other traitor Legions, so whats the matter? Secondly rules for legions were for "pure" legion warbands, but you were able to build any mixture of Legions, if you wanted. If I wanted to have AL/WE combined force, I just bought infiltrate vet. skill for my basic marines and I could field zerks as elites, no problem there.... EDIT: Hell I could give them Infiltrate+Furious charge and create Khorne affiliated AL force... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 First of all I am tired of players being more orthodox and restrictive than 3,5 codex. AL was able to use deamons, today I am meeting frowned looks when I put some deamons or even possessed on the table while in 3,5 they were fully usable in AL army. Then in AL fluff is outright stated they commonly team up with other traitor Legions, so whats the matter? Secondly rules for legions were for "pure" legion warbands, but you were able to build any mixture of Legions, if you wanted. If I wanted to have AL/WE combined force, I just bought infiltrate vet. skill for my basic marines and I could field zerks as elites, no problem there.... EDIT: Hell I could give them Infiltrate+Furious charge and create Khorne affiliated AL force... *gasp* Someone using creativity when it comes to Chaos?!? How dare you, good sir? I shall have to ask you to step outside! After that, you'll be returned to your usual comments of "Alpha Legion? Just spam Chosen! They have Infiltrate, right? That's all you need, what more do you want?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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