Chairman_woo Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 So I was leafing through the GK codex at my local GW as I have a few times now and then I noticed it! Librarians can take warding staves!!!! I dont know about anyone else but I've always found the only big weakness on libbies to be the lack of an invun save making them easy pickings in CC where you cant protect them with ablative dudes. But if you could give them a 2++ suddenly they wouldent be such an obvious target for the enemys CC attacks and they would have to choose between potentially wasting alot of attacks on the libby or allowing him to keep buffing himself and his squad in unspeakable ways. I dont think this is unballanced as GK libbies are not cheap and a stave with a few other bits of kit will probbably have you pushing 200+ pts, and with a 2++ the enemy will likely not bother using their fancy cc attacks on the libby alot of the time, as basic non PW wounds would be just as effective (high strength is a different matter natch.) But still my BA would kill for a librarian with anything better than a 5++ and the GK powers looks pretty dammned tasty too (tho some of the really nasty ones like quicksilver are player turn only I belive which goes along way to ballance things out too). Certainly Librarians seem to be one of the standout HQ choices, along with the rather fantastic Grand Master. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 While I do not discount the usefulness of the Librarian in any way, nor do I say that the upgrade is bad (actually its pretty nice) but still, the Librarian is a T4 W2 model, so it is not unlikely that the enemy would simply throw their normal attacks at your Librarian instead of the rest of his squad and hit the rest of your squad with their power weapons. All you need to do is fluff two 2+ saves ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmande Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Still, it's pretty nice to have when you can spare the points and for whatever reason you aren't benefiting from Quicksilver. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I dunno, the warding stave seems so meh to me. Sure a 2++ in combat is nice, but I'll tell you from experience with my canoness who has one when she feels like it, you can still fail that save. My opinion is that for a 2w t4 model 150 points is quite enough already thanks and the warding stave is another 35 on top of that. Yes he might be good but he's not worth the cost of a terminator squad good, really is he? And by taking it you're also losing the 4++ against shooting. Lets face it in combat he's only as good as a paladin. His main role in the army is the psychic hood and the odd cool power. But most of them don't require you to even be in combat to cast them. Maybe that's trying to tell you something. The only army where I fear the librarian as a combat character is blood angels, but that's because he's got unleash rage. Random Guy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 And by taking it you're also losing the 4++ against shooting. The Nemesis Force Sword's improved save is only against close combat attack as well, so Librarians can never get a 4+ invulnerable save against shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 I dunno, the warding stave seems so meh to me. Sure a 2++ in combat is nice, but I'll tell you from experience with my canoness who has one when she feels like it, you can still fail that save. My opinion is that for a 2w t4 model 150 points is quite enough already thanks and the warding stave is another 35 on top of that. Yes he might be good but he's not worth the cost of a terminator squad good, really is he? And by taking it you're also losing the 4++ against shooting. Lets face it in combat he's only as good as a paladin. His main role in the army is the psychic hood and the odd cool power. But most of them don't require you to even be in combat to cast them. Maybe that's trying to tell you something. The only army where I fear the librarian as a combat character is blood angels, but that's because he's got unleash rage. Random Guy I kindof think making a squad Initiative 10 and +2 st (combined with HH) is pretty awsome. As is forcing difficult and daingerous terrain on the enemy and gaining +1 to cover saves. The main downside to using librarians for combat abilities like this has always been the fact that they are easily sniped in CC as downing a 2W T4 charachter that can be singled out is not very hard and takes all those awsome buffs away from the rest of the squad. Give that librarain a 2++ and suddenly he isent a no brainer of a target, it dosent make him invincible and most other charachters are still more resiliant and put out more damage themselves but, they dont make the squad they are with I10 or st6 etc. etc.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gornall Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Don't GK libbies get iron halos? Or am I remembering incorrectly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Don't GK libbies get iron halos? Or am I remembering incorrectly? Sadly, they don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Only a couple of the characters have Iron Halos. Grand Masters and Librarians can't get it... :D I think it may be available for an Inquisitor, not certain on it. If you have the points, and you can't use them anywhere else. Sure take the staff, a 2++ in CC is amazing. I don't see it being in competition lists, but it would be fun to have a melee Librarian and not be playing Blood Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Only a couple of the characters have Iron Halos. Grand Masters and Librarians can't get it... :D I think it may be available for an Inquisitor, not certain on it. If you have the points, and you can't use them anywhere else. Sure take the staff, a 2++ in CC is amazing. I don't see it being in competition lists, but it would be fun to have a melee Librarian and not be playing Blood Angels. Actually grand masters do have one so with thier sword they get a 3++. Stern and the Brotherhood champions also have them. But it's not a widespread piece of wargear. I dunno I actually can't see the librarian being in competitive list full stop. Most players are going to abuse the henchmen and take coteaz or want purifiers and take crowe, and since the grand master seems like a no-brainer as well that doesn't leave any space for the librarian. But we shall have to wait and see. Random Guy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Only a couple of the characters have Iron Halos. Grand Masters and Librarians can't get it... :( I think it may be available for an Inquisitor, not certain on it. If you have the points, and you can't use them anywhere else. Sure take the staff, a 2++ in CC is amazing. I don't see it being in competition lists, but it would be fun to have a melee Librarian and not be playing Blood Angels. Actually grand masters do have one so with thier sword they get a 3++. Stern and the Brotherhood champions also have them. But it's not a widespread piece of wargear. I dunno I actually can't see the librarian being in competitive list full stop. Most players are going to abuse the henchmen and take coteaz or want purifiers and take crowe, and since the grand master seems like a no-brainer as well that doesn't leave any space for the librarian. But we shall have to wait and see. Random Guy Well, as Grandmaster already give scoring using his special rule, taking any SC just to alter foc is not requirement. I can totally see people taking 2 squad of grey knights in terminator armor just to meet requirement and then taking other stuff (paladins, elite PA GK with 2a that are cheap, forget their names). GM + Libra is neat combo and i feel it will be played in competitive lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have run a lib in many of my practice games and have described it as 'The glue that holds the army together'. While the grand master is fantastic and a solid choice and the inquisitor as well as corteaz have worked well for me too, I constantly swap and change between them. The constant is the librarian. His mix of offensive and defensive powers is obsurd. A good player will learn how to position him very effectively in the movement phase so he is in an optimal position from countering the enemies turn with his myriad of psychic powers. They walk forward a dread and a hard hitting close combat squad, I10 and +1str +2d6 aromour pen thanks, squad will use force weapons, they both dissapear and the squad breaks with the amount of pens and glances caused on the dread. That combat squad with the dread was actually going to shoot then make a devastating charge make a charge, go to ground in the cover use shrouding and sanctuary, bang 2+ cover save they get pulled up by the close combat only after the enemy looses a few models running in. These are just a few very small examples of his capabilities however I have found them almost limitless. In every list his psychic defence and powers make units that should be destroyed or loose combat dominate the enemy. I cannot praise this unit enough, He will always make my list. Ok side note, I have alwyas loved libs so I may have some bias. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Too expensive. Keeping with a base sword already gives them 4+ in CC. that's good enough considering you're going to be killing most things you enter combat with anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2696974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Well, since my question in Fluff thread was drowned out, and this seems to be the only thread about Librarians now... By the way... since apparently GK use normal (not only 'shoulderless') Terminator Armour, too (Librarians) I went today and bought myself a plastic SW Terminator Lord, unpainted and unglued. SW, because he is more ornate and I don't like SM Librarian model, especially the lack of helmet. So, things to do: GS a hood; cut helmet into GK like one; glue SB to the forearm; arm with GK weapon. But then, I noticed I also have spare lion/wolf skin/cape in the mix. You know, the one that goes over the top of the model. Now I wonder, should I use it on the mini as well, as "trophy" (read - easy indicator who is IC) since new minis are holding 'trophies' now, or is that a bad idea? If it is good, how should I paint it? Daemon? Tiger-like? Exotic colours? If it is bad, where I can use it? On Terminator Inquisitor? Nowhere? Any suggestions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2697027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godhead Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Kind of off topic, but am I correct in thinking a librarian inside a storm raven moving flat out using shrouding would receive a 3 + cover save? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2697322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Too expensive. Keeping with a base sword already gives them 4+ in CC. that's good enough considering you're going to be killing most things you enter combat with anyway. This is most correct. The Warding Stave is a neat trick, but in an army where every single point counts because of such a low model count, I feel that a 4++ in CC is good enough. Kind of off topic, but am I correct in thinking a librarian inside a storm raven moving flat out using shrouding would receive a 3 + cover save? Yes, that is correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2697869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Too expensive. Keeping with a base sword already gives them 4+ in CC. that's good enough considering you're going to be killing most things you enter combat with anyway. Yeah, too bad the Warding Stave doesn't help protect from Perils of the Warp. If it did, I would upgrade to Mastery 3, and go to town. Question, from the BRB, page 50 "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn" and from the BRB FAQ: "Q: What is meant when the term ʻturnʼ is used? (p9) A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn. Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Am I understanding this correctly, that if I did upgrade to Psychic Master 3, that my Librarian could cast 6 powers per game turn (3 in my player turn, and 3 in my opponents)? If so, I really need to reevaluate how I plan on using him. Thanks, Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Too expensive. Keeping with a base sword already gives them 4+ in CC. that's good enough considering you're going to be killing most things you enter combat with anyway. Yeah, too bad the Warding Stave doesn't help protect from Perils of the Warp. If it did, I would upgrade to Mastery 3, and go to town. Question, from the BRB, page 50 "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn" and from the BRB FAQ: "Q: What is meant when the term ʻturnʼ is used? (p9) A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn. Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Am I understanding this correctly, that if I did upgrade to Psychic Master 3, that my Librarian could cast 6 powers per game turn (3 in my player turn, and 3 in my opponents)? If so, I really need to reevaluate how I plan on using him. Thanks, Valerian Yes, psych mastery level 3 librarians can use 6 psychic powers per game turn! However, many of these powers specify as being activated during the librarian's .... phase, so I don't think you can just use any power during your opponents phases. I know you can use HH. You can probably use MoT, Shrouding, Sanctuary, and quicksilver (don't know for sure). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hammer hand, Cleansing Flame, Dark Excommunication I know work on either turn. They say so in the power. Shrouding is during opponent's shooting phase. Quicksilver is during the Librarian's movement phase. Not sure on MOT or Sanctuary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshrug Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 But still my BA would kill for a librarian with anything better than a 5++ TDA. Stormshield. There, you didn't even need to kill anyone. @Valerian: Doesn't a Warding Staff help protect against Perils? IIRC, you get Invul. Saves against Perils, you just need to reroll successful saves. Not too hard, with a 2++. Or does the Warding Staff explicitly not work for this? -Stormshrug Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 But still my BA would kill for a librarian with anything better than a 5++ TDA. Stormshield. There, you didn't even need to kill anyone. @Valerian: Doesn't a Warding Staff help protect against Perils? IIRC, you get Invul. Saves against Perils, you just need to reroll successful saves. Not too hard, with a 2++. Or does the Warding Staff explicitly not work for this? -Stormshrug Says it grants the 2++ against close combat attacks and Perils isn't a close combat attack. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhalyar Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hammer hand, Cleansing Flame, Dark Excommunication I know work on either turn. They say so in the power. Shrouding is during opponent's shooting phase. Quicksilver is during the Librarian's movement phase. Not sure on MOT or Sanctuary. Might of Titan is during the Librarian's assault phase and Sanctuary during the Enemy's assault phase. Mastery 3 doesn't seem that useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshrug Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Says it grants the 2++ against close combat attacks and Perils isn't a close combat attack. Fair enough, I'd just been hearing "2++" bandied about. With that in mind, I'm inclined to say that the Warding Staff is a poor trade for normal Stormshields. -Stormshrug Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2698496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Says it grants the 2++ against close combat attacks and Perils isn't a close combat attack. Fair enough, I'd just been hearing "2++" bandied about. With that in mind, I'm inclined to say that the Warding Staff is a poor trade for normal Stormshields. -Stormshrug Most would probably agree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2699088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToI Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 yeah a 2++ in CC does not equal a 3++ all around...also when it's more expensive it is even less appealing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225322-librarians-with-a-2/#findComment-2699096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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