Fighting the hordes of Chaos

[Reichfaust]

Hi, long time lurker at B&C but first time poster. I have recently gotten into the hobby, after much deliberation over which army to use. Obviously I couldn't resist the awesomeness that is the Space Marines. Originally, I intended to start a Black Templars army and thusly purchased the upgrade kit and some Sword Bretheren, but eventually decided to switch to a C:SM army as I wanted to focus on long-range combat over CC. Still, I liked the iconography and look of the BTs, so my army will keep the chained weapons and tabbards, but will for all intents and purposes be a vanilla Space Marine list. But enough about the look of the army; I'm here to pick your collective brains about tactics.

 

There are plenty of wargaming clubs in my area, so I'll be sure to fight many different enemies in time, but my good buddy who has gotten into the game at the same time as me has chosen a Slaaneshi Chaos army, and it constantly boggles my mind! Daemons with horrifying CC ability and Sorcerors who can fling my ICs far from the fight at a whim... So fast! So strong!

 

This is my army so far;

 

HEADQUARTERS:

 

• Chapter Master - 2x Hammers, Termie Armour
  
• Librarian - Storm Shield, Termie Armour
  
• Captain - Bike, Lightning Claw
  
• Chaplain - Plasma Pistol, Jump-pack
  
• Master of the Forge - Bike, Conversion Beamer
  

SPECIAL:

• Honour Guard - Chapter Banner, Champion
  
• Rhino/Razorback/Whirlwind - 1x Rhino chassis with the option to swap to any of the 3
  

 

TROOPS:

• Tactical Squad - 10 strong, 1x Melta, 1x MM
  
• Scout Squad - 6 strong, 4x Snipers, 1x H.Bolter, Sgt. Telion
  

 

FAST ATTACK:

• Assault Squad - 9 strong, Flamer, Sgt w/Pwr Fist, Melta Bombs
  
• Bike Squad - 6 strong, 1x Attack Bike with swappable weapons
  

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

• Devastator Squad 1 - 5 strong, 2x ML, 2x LC
  
• Devastator Squad 2 - 5 strong, 2x HB, 2x PC
  
• Vindicator - Siege shield, option for HK missile
  

 

I know right off the bat that I don't have enough troop choices. Up until now I haven't played the game, just admired the fluff and loved the painting & conversion of models, so my army is not very balanced. I also realise I have far more HQ choices than I need, but I couldn't resist kitbashing myself a few awesome figures like the Biker Captain, MOTF and Assault Chaplain... Even the Librarian is a converted Terminator Chaplain, and my Chapter Master is a heavily converted old metal Brother-Captain Stern model!

 

I plan on getting another Scout Sniper squad, as they are so cheap and I have had a lot of success in objective camping them, especially when I put a HB in the squad with them. And Telion really helps too. I guess I should aim to buy another Tac Squad w/a Rhino, seeing as the general rule around here is "go mech or go home", right?

 

But anyway, I've been having some trouble with Chaos, and to make matters worse my buddy just got some a Land Raider and a Defiler! D: I am hoping my bikes with 2x Meltaguns and a MM Attack Bike will be able to hit-and-run them, or are Assault Marines with Melta-bombs a more effective anti-armour strategy?

 

The MEQ armour save of 3+ makes me want to go and buy a Crusader/Redeemer for those sweet flamestorm cannons, is this a good plan? Also, I eventually want to get myself some Dreadnoughts, I love the models and really look forward to the idea of having the arms easily swapped out depending on the situation. And with my MOTF, I could take 6 of them! *drools*

 

Anywho, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how I should equip my army, and what the next additions to it should be. Thanks a lot! :D

[DarkGuard]

Hi, welcome to the forums.

 

Now, Chaos can be a tricky force, but like a lot of forces these days they do really need to mechanise, so you need a good firebase unit that can take out transports. For now that looks like it'll be a Dev squad. What I'd do, is instead of having 4 weapons in 5 man squads, go for 2 weapons in 5 man squads, or 4 in 10. The reason being is that if you put 4 in a 5 man squad every member is a 'special' or upgrade model. You're risking your Sergeant and heavy weapons everytime you get shot at. Having a couple of normal guys means they can take a couple of wounds first before the rest of your squad, protecting your weapons.

 

About troop choices, I wouldn't get another Scout sniper squad. The only thing that would make it good is Tellion, and you can only have one of him. Furthermore, it's task to sit on an objective and secure it, not kill things. If you want a troop choice that can kill things then you're looking at a Tactical squad or a full strength Scout combat squad. So if I were you, I'd get another Tactical squad and give both of them Rhinos, for protection and mobility.

 

Your bike squadron with melta would be much more effective at taking out Land Raiders than one set of meltabombs. I'd also try and get a 10th Assault Marine there, to let you take the second flamer. Plus, with a power fist you don't really need meltabombs, these guys shouldn't be hunting Land Raiders, so I'd give those meltabombs to the bike Sergeant.

 

A Vindicator is brilliant for Chaos, as it will go right through their armour and kill loads if it hits and they're not in cover. For HQ I'd choose a bike or jump pack character, preferably the bike Captain as he gives you a 3rd scoring unit reducing the immediate need to take another Tactical squad. The Vindicator would then give you a big gun, the Devs give you long range support and the Assault squad give you short range support. That to me sounds like a solid army. What you've got to remember with Chaos is to use low AP weapons like plasma and melta, or tons of shots like heavy bolters, massed bolter fire and flamers. I'd probably put two plasma cannons and two missile launchers in your Dev squad, or if you have the points have a big one with lascannons and missile launchers and a small one with plasma cannons.

 

Now, for more tips on fighting Chaos here's a short guide to their army that Shadowstalker Grim made http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=214889, just scroll down a little. And if you're starting out I'd shamelessly recommend both that and the Space Marine 101 in my sig, it could give you some ideas on force composition and unit composition respectively.

 

Hope you have a good stay here.

[MagicMan]

About troop choices, I wouldn't get another Scout sniper squad. The only thing that would make it good is Tellion, and you can only have one of him. Furthermore, it's task to sit on an objective and secure it, not kill things.

 

 

 

Not so my friend, Daemon princes no likey 4+ to wound.

[Reichfaust]

Not so my friend, Daemon princes no likey 4+ to wound.

 

I love the Sniper Rifles for this very rule. Also, the first time I fielded them I exploded a Rhino with a single sniper shot. Ever since then they've had a place in my heart!

 

Recently when we had a match I managed to trundle my Chapter Master and his Honour Guard into battle and they fared very well; 31 Power Weapon attacks and 6 Thunderhammer attacks made mincemeat of his marines, even though they came in at a costly 480~ points. But now he's fielding his Sorceror/Prince with Lash of Submission. By the God-Emperor, I have never encounted a more agitating power. He flicks my Chapter Master away one turn, then my standard bearer the next, and cuts down the isolated Honour Guard with ease. Is there any way to deal with a Sorceror using Lash, other than just not taking many ICs?

[MagicMan]

Not so my friend, Daemon princes no likey 4+ to wound.

 

I love the Sniper Rifles for this very rule. Also, the first time I fielded them I exploded a Rhino with a single sniper shot. Ever since then they've had a place in my heart!

 

 

 

 

Same. :wub:

 

Mine have popped a couple of rhinos now, and my opponents Daemon Prince fears them.

[nurglez]

lash moves squads, not individual models, so if your chapter master is attached to a squad, the whole squad would move.

The best defence against lash is to be in a vehicle (as it cant affect vehicles), or to use a psychic hood to nullify it.

 

Daemon prince's are nasty, but not that great on their own, a few salvos of krak missiles and they should go down pretty quickly B)]#

 

Against chaos, or any marines, ap 3 or lower weapons are great. melta are great at popping vehicles at short range too.

[Borinar]

You could take your Bike captain so you can have a third troop option ready made.

 

Here is an idea for a list:

 

•Captain - Bike, Lightning Claw

•Bike Squad - 6 strong, 1x Attack Bike with swappable weapons

•Tactical Squad - 10 strong, 1x Melta, 1x MM

•Rhino

•Devastator Squad 1 - 5 strong, 2x ML

•Vindicator

 

Thats about 750 points, plenty of room to grow.

[DarkGuard]

About troop choices, I wouldn't get another Scout sniper squad. The only thing that would make it good is Tellion, and you can only have one of him. Furthermore, it's task to sit on an objective and secure it, not kill things.

 

 

 

Not so my friend, Daemon princes no likey 4+ to wound.

 

4+ to wound on a high toughness model is brilliant. Unfortunately it doesn't apply to Tellion, and normal Scouts are hitting on a 4+. And then the Prince has a 3+ save. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances with melta, plasma, Null Zone, and hellfire rounds, which are a 2+ to wound with a more durable, accurate and mobile unit.

 

I'll also mention that Borinar's base 750pts is a solid list to start with and use to grow.

[MagicMan]

4+ to wound on a high toughness model is brilliant. Unfortunately it doesn't apply to Tellion, and normal Scouts are hitting on a 4+. And then the Prince has a 3+ save. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances with melta, plasma, Null Zone, and hellfire rounds, which are a 2+ to wound with a more durable, accurate and mobile unit.

 

I'll also mention that Borinar's base 750pts is a solid list to start with and use to grow.

 

 

Oh they're definitely not the best, but they're cheap, long range, and fulfill a troop selection. Can't be bad.

[DarkGuard]

4+ to wound on a high toughness model is brilliant. Unfortunately it doesn't apply to Tellion, and normal Scouts are hitting on a 4+. And then the Prince has a 3+ save. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances with melta, plasma, Null Zone, and hellfire rounds, which are a 2+ to wound with a more durable, accurate and mobile unit.

 

I'll also mention that Borinar's base 750pts is a solid list to start with and use to grow.

 

 

Oh they're definitely not the best, but they're cheap, long range, and fulfill a troop selection. Can't be bad.

 

I agree, I do like them, and if I have the spare points I will put them in. 100pts for a durable unit (in cover) that can hold objectives is pretty good, especially as it'll win you 2/3 games. And with a heavy bolter they aren't too bad in the damage department. I just don't have high expectations for damage they can put out, but results may have been better for you which is good :P.

[Reichfaust]

I agree, I do like them, and if I have the spare points I will put them in. 100pts for a durable unit (in cover) that can hold objectives is pretty good, especially as it'll win you 2/3 games. And with a heavy bolter they aren't too bad in the damage department. I just don't have high expectations for damage they can put out, but results may have been better for you which is good :P.

 

My favourite thing about them is the cost. As I have limited troop choices, I can take the mandatory 2 troops for less than 200 points, then spend the remainder of my points on hard-hitting support units. Of course the trade-off for this is a lack of scoring units...

[DarkGuard]

The problem wouldn't be the lack of scoring units, it'd be the fragility of your scoring units. I only take two scoring units in my 1500pts list, but it works for reasons that have been described in the "scoring unit" thread. My scoring units are two 10 man Tactical squads in Rhinos in a mech army, surprisingly survivable. However, with Scouts I think you should be looking at at least three scoring units, so more around 300pts, due to their inherent fragility.

[Reichfaust]

The problem wouldn't be the lack of scoring units, it'd be the fragility of your scoring units. I only take two scoring units in my 1500pts list, but it works for reasons that have been described in the "scoring unit" thread. My scoring units are two 10 man Tactical squads in Rhinos in a mech army, surprisingly survivable. However, with Scouts I think you should be looking at at least three scoring units, so more around 300pts, due to their inherent fragility.

 

Understandable. I will make getting another Tac Squad and Rhino my priority. Now that I have the Devastator weapons I can really outfit my Tactical Marines with a different variety of Heavy weapons in every game depending on the situation, which I'm looking forward to.

 

What are your thoughts on Combat Scout Squads? Personally I don't like the sound of them, if I'm taking Scouts I feel like they should be out of harms way, hence why I got the Snipers. I feel if I'm sending in Combat Scouts, I'd be doing it wrong and I should really just be sending in Marines. Granted, this is all hypothetically vs. a MEQ army. Are Scouts more viable when you're fighting a non-MEQ army? And is the Land Speeder Storm a good choice for Scouts?

[DarkGuard]

I personally love the idea of Scouts. Of all flavours. Shotgun squads, outflanking bolter squads, combat squads, sniper squads. It just depends on the use. Shotgun squads and small combat squads are perfect for Land Speeder Storms. Snipers are best as small squads sitting on objectives. Scout combat squads, take 10 men and give either all CCW/BP or 50:50 CCW/BP and shotguns. Give the Sergeant something like a power fist and a combi-flamer, and then hit things on the charge. I haven't used it myself due to money reasons, but I'd love to use a unit like that, able to outflank and assault or assault from the start and hit hard, while also being scoring. Of course, like all things they work best in support with other units, so consider reducing an enemy unit's numbers through rapid fire and then assault with your combat Scouts.

 

In the end, if you like it get it, it's your game. If you like it enough you'll find a good way to put it to use and continue using it no matter what others say.

[Reichfaust]

I personally love the idea of Scouts. Of all flavours. Shotgun squads, outflanking bolter squads, combat squads, sniper squads. It just depends on the use. Shotgun squads and small combat squads are perfect for Land Speeder Storms. Snipers are best as small squads sitting on objectives. Scout combat squads, take 10 men and give either all CCW/BP or 50:50 CCW/BP and shotguns. Give the Sergeant something like a power fist and a combi-flamer, and then hit things on the charge. I haven't used it myself due to money reasons, but I'd love to use a unit like that, able to outflank and assault or assault from the start and hit hard, while also being scoring. Of course, like all things they work best in support with other units, so consider reducing an enemy unit's numbers through rapid fire and then assault with your combat Scouts.

 

In the end, if you like it get it, it's your game. If you like it enough you'll find a good way to put it to use and continue using it no matter what others say.

 

I fear that taking Scouts into close-combat with Chaos Marines is a recipie for disaster though... Did I mention that this particular Chaos Army has mark of Slaanesh for +1 Initiative? Seems like my squad would be half dead before I could even try and get any hits off... And even then they would have to punch through a 3+ armour save...

 

Also--Razorbacks. Worth it for cheap fire support? I have the option of fielding one, and am intruiged by the prospect of putting an Assault Cannon on it. Granted, ACs are a little hard to come by, but they're just so darned awesome. It currently has a TL-Lascannon, but I hear you guys are big fans of the LasPlas Razorback?

[MagicMan]

Is it a rhino rush list?

 

 

Can't stress the importance of Twin linked Auto-cannon dreads enough...

 

 

If its a friendly game, you might be able to proxy them.

[DarkGuard]

I fear that taking Scouts into close-combat with Chaos Marines is a recipie for disaster though... Did I mention that this particular Chaos Army has mark of Slaanesh for +1 Initiative? Seems like my squad would be half dead before I could even try and get any hits off... And even then they would have to punch through a 3+ armour save...

 

Also--Razorbacks. Worth it for cheap fire support? I have the option of fielding one, and am intruiged by the prospect of putting an Assault Cannon on it. Granted, ACs are a little hard to come by, but they're just so darned awesome. It currently has a TL-Lascannon, but I hear you guys are big fans of the LasPlas Razorback?

 

No, you didn't mention the mark of Slaanesh, so if I were you I'd focus on shooting him dead, with combat units being something like TH/SS Terminators which are going last anyway and have great survivability.

 

Depending on the list Razorbacks can be worth it for the fire support. I personally like putting a 5 man Tactical squad into a las plas Razorback. Gives me a scoring unit at 165pts that it meched up and can contribute to the game at range better than a sniper squad. Is more expensive though. Personally I'd say the best weapons for the Razorback are heavy bolters, assault cannons, and las plas. First because it's cheap, second because it's awesome and hard hitting, and last because it is versatile, has range, and has two weapons to be knocked off. Quite simply though, if you're paying for a weapon it's a choice between assault cannon and las plas, not lascannon as las plas is the same points and better, and heavy flamers are too short ranged. Against Chaos, I'd go las plas. You've got the lascannon to take out transports, and the plasma gun to take out people. However, it does have a low rate of fire, so you might feel tempted to take assault cannons.

[Reichfaust]

At present he only has one Rhino. I think I will swap my Razorback turret to LasPlas, as it is currently TL-Las so the conversion will be easy.

 

I want a Rifleman Ven Dread sooooo badly, but I need to focus on expanding my Troops choices and getting some more transport first. And also, It's really hard to get those Autocannons! I've been checking my local online sources and stuff but Autocannons are few and far between... Why oh why do GW insist on letting us take awesome wargear choices as per the codex but then not supplying those awesome choices in the box? ;_; It's the same with the Razorback--Where am I supposed to get a TL-Assault Cannon turret, short of buying a Land Raider Crusader?? :S

[DarkGuard]

At present he only has one Rhino. I think I will swap my Razorback turret to LasPlas, as it is currently TL-Las so the conversion will be easy.

 

I want a Rifleman Ven Dread sooooo badly, but I need to focus on expanding my Troops choices and getting some more transport first. And also, It's really hard to get those Autocannons! I've been checking my local online sources and stuff but Autocannons are few and far between... Why oh why do GW insist on letting us take awesome wargear choices as per the codex but then not supplying those awesome choices in the box? ;_; It's the same with the Razorback--Where am I supposed to get a TL-Assault Cannon turret, short of buying a Land Raider Crusader?? :S

 

Well one Rifleman Dread will make that one Rhino look very silly. And the las plas conversion is easy, I used this from our very own Myxx, although I didn't cut the rail under the lascannon, only the plasma gun. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=843

 

As for Rifleman Dreads, I used the autocannons from the Aegis Line set, which is also thoughtful enough to provide you with terrain for your troubles. Simple conversion which involved cutting the pegs off the Dread's body and cutting down the pegs on the autocannons, making them sit flush with each and using plastic glue. Unfortunately I now cannot swap weapons out, so will look to go back and redo with magnets at some points.

 

As for the TL-AC, you can buy a weapons upgrade pack from Games Workshop: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...otCatGameStyle=

 

Alternatively, you can use the assault cannons that come with Land Speeders, especially if you've got the Ravenwing Battleforce lying around. Use the heavy bolters, cut the barrels off each weapons, and stick the assault cannon barrels onto the heavy bolter body, that's what my brother did.

[Reichfaust]

Okay, got a 1500 pts game coming up and I want to field my Chapter Master & Librarian in an Honour Guard squad to make a Close-Combat super-unit. It's gonna be pricey but I wanna see how it performs.

 

Got a couple of questions regarding the Libby;

 

Firstly, can I use psychic powers when locked in close combat? I'm not talking about psychic shooting attacks like Smite or Vortex of Doom, I mean things like Null Zone and Force Dome that are used in either his moving or shooting phase. I can't see anything in the rules saying that they can't be used, it only explicity prohibits psychic shooting attacks while in close combat.

 

Secondly, I am planning on taking him as an Epistolary with Null Zone and Force Dome so he can bestow some really useful abilities every turn that are going to help my Honour Guard go from being super-killy to hyper-killy. Is this a good idea? The Librarian's in Termie armour so I was considering taking Vortex of Doom to soften up the enemy before assaulting, but I don't want to risk having him fail a psychic test and place that S10 AP1 template in the middle of my squad... What do you reckon? The Librarian also has a Storm Shield, btw.

[MagicMan]

Secondly, I am planning on taking him as an Epistolary with Null Zone and Force Dome so he can bestow some really useful abilities every turn that are going to help my Honour Guard go from being super-killy to hyper-killy. Is this a good idea? The Librarian's in Termie armour so I was considering taking Vortex of Doom to soften up the enemy before assaulting, but I don't want to risk having him fail a psychic test and place that S10 AP1 template in the middle of my squad... What do you reckon? The Librarian also has a Storm Shield, btw.

 

 

Null Zone is pretty good against Chaos, especially if he takes Thousand Sons/Oblits/Daemon princes, which all have Invulnerable to save them from AP 3 (AP 2 in the case of Obliterator's) weapons.

 

Whether you can use them once you're in combat? I don't think you can, since you use them in the movement phase, and if you're in combat you can't move. Maybe consider taking one of the combat powers that gives him an extra D3 attacks or I 10 or something? If you plan to have him stuck in combat for a while then you want a power he can use.

 

 

As for VoD.... Its good, but also pretty frustrating. The last game i played against Chaos i rolled double 1 the second time i used it and it sucked up 4 Thunder Hammer terminators, and more or less lost me the game. Its up to you though... I find smites good enough as a shooting power, and not as risky. You dont want a S10 AP1 template catching your Honour Guard/Chapter master from your own team. Say goodbye to all of them.

 

Storm Shield is a good investment to keeping him alive.

 

Why'd you choose Chapter Master over Captain? If hes in combat you won't get much chance to use the bombardment.

[DarkGuard]

Null Zone is pretty good against Chaos, especially if he takes Thousand Sons/Oblits/Daemon princes, which all have Invulnerable to save them from AP 3 (AP 2 in the case of Obliterator's) weapons.

 

Whether you can use them once you're in combat? I don't think you can, since you use them in the movement phase, and if you're in combat you can't move. Maybe consider taking one of the combat powers that gives him an extra D3 attacks or I 10 or something? If you plan to have him stuck in combat for a while then you want a power he can use.

 

 

As for VoD.... Its good, but also pretty frustrating. The last game i played against Chaos i rolled double 1 the second time i used it and it sucked up 4 Thunder Hammer terminators, and more or less lost me the game. Its up to you though... I find smites good enough as a shooting power, and not as risky. You dont want a S10 AP1 template catching your Honour Guard/Chapter master from your own team. Say goodbye to all of them.

 

Storm Shield is a good investment to keeping him alive.

 

Why'd you choose Chapter Master over Captain? If hes in combat you won't get much chance to use the bombardment.

 

Actually MagicMan, Null Zone is used at the start of the shooting phase. It's also one of those powers that you could use in combat, you just need to check with your opponent and discuss it.

 

As for Vortex of Doom, it's up to you. I wouldn't take Force Dome as that's a primary power and you don't want it competing with the ever amazing Null Zone. The only way you're using both is if you're using him as an Epistolary and I'm not sure if that's worth it. That being said, you should probably be using Null Zone most of the time if he has invulnerable saves, so having something like VoD or Avenger would be handy when attacking those units with invulnerables. Also, VoD will only land on you on a double 6, I don't know the odds for that, but it's slim.

 

And MagicMan, he's taking a Chapter Master to take Honour Guard, Captain's can only take Command Squads. You rarely take Chapter Masters for Orbital Bombardment, it's a stationary lottery ticket. You do take them for Honour Guard, which Reichfaust appears to be doing.

[Reichfaust]

And MagicMan, he's taking a Chapter Master to take Honour Guard, Captain's can only take Command Squads. You rarely take Chapter Masters for Orbital Bombardment, it's a stationary lottery ticket. You do take them for Honour Guard, which Reichfaust appears to be doing.

 

Yeah, fluffiness aside I took him for the Honour Guard to make a close-combat unit that can actually go toe-to-toe with his I5 Slaaneshi army... even though I'm hitting second, I'm hitting hardest with over 30 power weapon attacks on the charge from my 6-man guard, and then my Chapter Master comes in for the final blow with those dual hammers. Awesome! And even though the orbital bombardment is a bit of a gamble, it's awesome and can wipe out an entire squad when it hits. Really handy for mopping up late-game . :)

 

As for my libby, I am taking him as an Epsitolary because I wanted him to be buffing the squad with those powers every turn... But if I can't use them in close-combat, I'm having second thoughts... My interpretation of the rulebook is that they are used at the start of the listed phases regardless of what the Librarian is doing. Say he is locked in close-combat already; I would use Force Dome at the start of his movement phase, then forgo movement because he's in CC; then use Null Zone at the start of the shooting phase, and forgo shooting; then start calculating the close-combat. The rulebook only explicity denies the use of Psychic shooting attacks during close-combat, otherwise all it says are "Psykers may use one power per player turn, unless specified otherwise"..

[Reichfaust]

Update! I just nabbed 10 Terminators off of a local online auction sight for an absolute steal. They're just regular shooty Terminators, and sadly they didn't come with any special weapons, but I'm sure I'll be able to rustle up some bits easily enough. I've heard Cyclone missile launchers are the way to go, but I have to admit, I have a soft spot for Assault cannons. Or maybe I could buy a box of assault termies and have a 10-man 5 LC/5 THSS squad! :D Ahh, the possibilities..

[DarkGuard]

Awesome, well done there! Cyclones are generally considered the way to go, but assault cannons and heavy flamers are equally viable, it just depends on the situation. Personally I think that the latter two are best suited for 5 man squads, while cyclones are better for 10 man squads, so if you have a 10 man squad stick the cyclones on them and use them as a firebase unit with counter-attacking duties.