Grandmaster Anaziel Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Dan Abnett suggested a while back that there may be more to The Emperor than just being a benevolent benefactor of humanity. Which begs the question of his motives. Why is the Emperor intent on the ultimate victory of mankind? Is it just to battle Chaos? If so, why does he want to battle Chaos at all? If he is reincarnated shamans, why do the shamans want to battle Chaos? If he desires god-hood than he sure puts on a good show of hating power for power's sake at Nikea. During the Great Crusade, Mankind(including Astartes and Primarchs) seemed to think of him as basically the god of atheism, so to speak. The avatar and creator of The Imperial Truth which was effectively the 10 commandments of the Emperor. Why did the Emperor go through all this trouble? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I think even Dan Abnett does not know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 What makes me wonder is if he cut a deal with the chaos gods to create the Primarchs how did he think he was going to get away scott free? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 My guess is he didnt think he was going to get away scott free. Since reading the HH i have started thinking that the Emperor is on the path of God-Hood, plus i think he needed the heresy to happen, to be put on the Golden Throne for it all to be achieved. As to why he is doing it, my guess is the Emperor realised it was the only way mankind would defeat Chaos/Xenos and rule the galaxy unmoleseted Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'm not at all convinced that the Emperor did in fact strike a deal with Chaos. Don't forget that we only have the word of Erebus and a daemon that this is what happened - hardly the most trustworthy of sources! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Yeah, that's a part of the story I'm choosing to regard as biased and unreliable. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I am gonna roll with the Emperor's goal as "create a human utopia free of the influence of warp entities that will bring Mankind into dominance of the galaxy....with the Big E sitting at the top of the heap." Good motives with a dash of ego and selfishness thrown in. As for the "godhood" thing...I doubt it. Ignoring the words of half falsified visions and lying traitors, it seems the Emperor went through the trouble of abolishing worship in order to" A) Cut off the Chaos Gods from potential weakwilled supplicants as much as possible B ) Honestly believed it would help mankind to rule through a rationalist society. It was religious demagogues (unless that gets retconned) that fragged Terra. Living through several millenia, one tends to see a pattern of religious inspired atrocities throughout time. Not that the Emperor is unwilling to commit such atrocities himself or under his orders, but it seems to be for a controllable greater good rather the the "divine" visions of a madman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 If like me you do believe the Emperor was after god-hood there is a reason why to do things the way he did. First off he would want to weaken the power of other Gods, so he does things the way he did. Second is his own denial, the Emperors powers were near god like and people would no doubt worship him with out Lorgar. By denying it constantly people start believing it, after all there are plenty of people who believe in UFO crashing in Roswell New Mexico despite the denials of the US Government. Thirdly he would need to die a Martyr. The best strength in religeon is Martyr's after all Rome's persecution of Christianity did not stop the religeon only it increased it and with all the martyrs it created it focussed belief onto these martyrs. Now if the Emperor were to die, but yet also some how live where his psychic might good be used that would be one hell of a martyrdom. Fourth is with every good guy you need a villain. Nine of the Primarchs did this well, after all if it was not for Lorgar, Horus and the others then the Emperor would never be worshipped the way he was. Resulting factor. The Emperor defeats evil but saccrifices himself and entombes himself on the golden throne where his essence will continue to aid mankind. With a religeon already set up by Lorgar (and rival religeons destroyed) this self sacrificing action causes the religeon to sky rocket with its believers. Then we come to the final part, in the Warp gods require belief, worship, thougths and emotions to live, funnel all that into the most powerful psyker ever and what you get is the God-Emperor of Mankind. Of course all of this is if the Emperor wanted to become a god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Ultimately, I don't think that "benevolent" is a word that can go within a galaxy of the Emperor. He sees the dark future of his race, and is dedicated to do whatever he can, by whatever means are necessary, to ensure that it does not come to pass. Only the Emperor has the clarity of thought and purpose, coupled with the willpower and crystal clear understanding of the price of failure, to ensure the continued existence of humanity can even come within the bounds of reality. It is his sole purpose: he is fighting for the survival of the entire human race, on levels both physical and spiritual, in a galaxy beset by hostile aliens and the hellspawn of warpspace. His mission is the reason that it is the Imperium of Man, and not just the Imperium. Of course, in the end, the Emperor is still a man, himself: a near-immortal, genetically superior post-human who mainlines the undiluted power of the Empyrean, perhaps, but a man nevertheless, with the desires, savagery and hubris that being a man encompasses. When you are the most powerful man in the galaxy, both temporally and spiritually, one could imagine a certain amount of arrogance is entailed. Anybody with that kind of power is bound to become a bit on the uncompromising side, especially when such a man knows that he is the only one who can stay on the path laid out before him without straying. He did not wish to become a god. If that were his intent, he would have lauded the Word Bearers, rather than censuring them and humiliating them before the Ultramarines. Instead, he decried religion and denied divinity, in hopes to shut out the gods that he knew existed in the warp and deny them influence. In the most delicious of ironies, he is deified upon his "ascension" to the Golden Throne, with the Lecticio Divinatus, penned by his heretic son Lorgar, forming the basis of the Imperial Creed. Not that the Ecclesiarchy would ever admit that.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2698974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 A huge chunk of your text i agree with and put it down to my reasons as to why he is trying to become a god. Though with another part i see a slight flaw in your logic. Which is saying that there are no gods will not fully deny the chaos gods there power. In fact as stated in many sources the main focus of the Chaos Gods power is not from worship but from emotions and thoughts. Khorne = Anger & Honour Tzeentch = Ambition & Manipulation Nurgle = Fear & Despair Slaanesh = Pleasure and Pain. Now even if no one believes in the four gods every human will experience most of the thoughts and feelings stated above within a month. So therefore unless you destroy mankind Chaos would always exist. Afterall when Khornate followers go to war with the Imperium no matter which side is victorious Khorne is still the ultimate victor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan79 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 From what i can gather the Big guy wanted to put magnus on the throne and use a webway to safely travel through the warp. From the last church as i understand it his hatred of religion is clear due to the atrocities committed in the previous 35 thousand years also in this story im sure he states his goal is the survival of humanity no matter the cost . I believe the primarchs were created from parts of the emperor a little of his power in each one and he was hiding this from the warp gods. I think the end result of the heresy with him basically being dead and the rise of the imperial cult is basically the swasnsong of mankind slowly circling the drain as it is beset on all sides by enemies. Chaos has won the emperor has failed man is pissin into the wind we are doomed which is where all the grimdark stuff comes from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'm not at all convinced that the Emperor did in fact strike a deal with Chaos. Don't forget that we only have the word of Erebus and a daemon that this is what happened - hardly the most trustworthy of sources! Eldrad Ulthran hints that the primarchs were created using dark forces in Fulgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 A huge chunk of your text i agree with and put it down to my reasons as to why he is trying to become a god. Though with another part i see a slight flaw in your logic. Which is saying that there are no gods will not fully deny the chaos gods there power. In fact as stated in many sources the main focus of the Chaos Gods power is not from worship but from emotions and thoughts. Khorne = Anger & Honour Tzeentch = Ambition & Manipulation Nurgle = Fear & Despair Slaanesh = Pleasure and Pain. Now even if no one believes in the four gods every human will experience most of the thoughts and feelings stated above within a month. So therefore unless you destroy mankind Chaos would always exist. Afterall when Khornate followers go to war with the Imperium no matter which side is victorious Khorne is still the ultimate victor. I absolutely disagree. Getting angry is not the same as offering skulls in tribute. While anger, as an example, may give Khorne the barest sustenance in his existance as an entity comprised of pure, emotional rage, it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the same as the blood worship of a very violent, alien god. Unless you are killing people in your god's name every time something bothers you, you are not even in the same hemisphere as worshipping one of the gods of Chaos. By acknowledging them as gods, you grant them power. Denying them anything more than tacit acknowledgement, insofar as you realize that each of the four represent a fundamental universal aspect viewed through the prism of sentience, eliminates the possibility of any one of the Chaos gods from getting too powerful. This, I think, was the Emperor's primary drive in the eradication and abolishment of religion: as the Word Bearers proved, people will always try to find gods to worship, if the god they have is denied them. Emotion may have given the Chaos gods form, but worship gives them their power. To put it a different way: eating an Oreo doesn't make me a worshipper of Slaanesh. I enjoy them, but I am not shackled body and soul to the enjoyment they give me. But if I know that Slaanesh is out there, and he promises me as many Oreos as I could possibly want, as long as I provide him worship, then I give him power... and he gives me Oreos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 To put it a different way: eating an Oreo doesn't make me a worshipper of Slaanesh. I enjoy them, but I am not shackled body and soul to the enjoyment they give me. But if I know that Slaanesh is out there, and he promises me as many Oreos as I could possibly want, as long as I provide him worship, then I give him power... and he gives me Oreos. Ahhh Oreos...the one true path to Chaos worship. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Thought for the day: A stomach without Oreos will wander in dark places. Blessed is the stomach too small for Oreos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Thought for the day: A stomach without Oreos will wander in dark places. Blessed is the stomach too small for Oreos. Hahaha! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 From all the hints and suggestions from the Heresy novels, I think the Emperor has indeed made a pact with the Chaos Gods as Magnus himself confirmed as much in a Thousand Sons. It would explain a darker motive to his internment into the Golden Throne, if he fully dies his soul would be a play thing for the dark gods... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Unfortunately there are many sources out there that all state that the Chaos gods power comes from Emotions and thoughts. Where as the HH is the one place that seems to hint that they required worship to exist. I personally recommend the Liber Chaotica as a source material where it fully explains the emotions and thoughts that power each of the gods. E.g Khorne and Anger. Now worshipping a god always puts you at the more extreme ends as your God's will starts dominating peoples focus so they end up on the extremes. However, as stated even in rule books and Codecies of the armies the Gods of Chaos get there power from the simple human feelings and thoughts. Now destroying belief in Gods might have weakened them it certainly would of got rid of all those raving psychopaths that chant their names, but the Chaos Gods would still be about, waiting in the dark. Plus the Emperor's tactics do not help against other Gods like Gork and Mork, or the Ctan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Think presumably eliminating the worship was only one part of the plan, as was the planned move to the Webway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Indeed, perhaps the Emperor was after the Black Library. As even travelling in the web way does not save your soul (poor, poor Dark Eldar). That is the only other explanation in his motives i can come up with is that he was after something in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Eldrad Ulthran hints that the primarchs were created using dark forces in Fulgrim It looks more like speculation to me: "I do not know for sure, but I believe that whatever dark forces his Emperor employed in the creation of these primarchs renders many of them as little more than spectres in the warp." From all the hints and suggestions from the Heresy novels, I think the Emperor has indeed made a pact with the Chaos Gods as Magnus himself confirmed as much in a Thousand Sons. Actually, Magnus just says the Emperor bargained with warp entities before, not that he bargained with them to create the Primarchs. While there is the possibility that the Big E made a pact with the Gods, the "evidence" in favour of it have IMO been unconvincing so far. Perhaps some later book will shed more light on the issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2699981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Now destroying belief in Gods might have weakened them it certainly would of got rid of all those raving psychopaths that chant their names, but the Chaos Gods would still be about, waiting in the dark. Plus the Emperor's tactics do not help against other Gods like Gork and Mork, or the Ctan. Gork and Mork can be taken care of by destroying all the Orks though, ive never personally heard of anyone other than the orks being corrupted by/worshipping Gork and Mork. The C'tan are really the only physical gods if you count the Emperor as a super-powered psyker, and i cant think up anyway to kill them apart from Blackstone Fortresses. The Emperors skill in engineering alien tech (The Golden Throne, expansion into the Webway) makes me think that he would have been able to turn the Blackstone Fortresses to his side and maybe even recreate them. Then all he would have to do is wait a few thousand years for the C'tan to come out of statis, find them amongst the millions of Imperial worlds and the almost infinite number of imperial citizens they could be posing as and zap them back to hell :confused: I think that the Emperor, if he knew about them, would have eventually tried to recreate the necron pylons that are on Cadia (i think, might be wrong though) because dont they null the warp around them? If he could mass produce them and stick them on every planet then the Chaos gods would have an even harder time of corrupting people if what i see chaos influence like is correct. There would still need to be a building on every planet away from the pylons to house astropaths etc, and marine librarians and Inquisitors would have a hard time without their powers but i guess pylons could be turned off if the situation demanded it. This is all assuming the Emperor isnt interuppted by his pesky sons squabbling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2700414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 And he'd have got away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2700839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 From all the hints and suggestions from the Heresy novels, I think the Emperor has indeed made a pact with the Chaos Gods as Magnus himself confirmed as much in a Thousand Sons. It would explain a darker motive to his internment into the Golden Throne, if he fully dies his soul would be a play thing for the dark gods... It's certainly an interesting possibility but it's a little too grimdark for me. The thing I always loved about 40K was that even though humanity appeared to be circling the drain, as one poster put it so well above, there was always a flicker of hope that came from that wonderful cadaver on Terra who selflessly put the needs of his species ahead of his own. If it turns out he was just some power-mad git out to save his own ass that would be a tad too depressing I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2719636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Adam Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 The Emperor could let himself die in the golden throne, he's not so much a prisoner than a tennant. In the Lexicannum it says the Emperor's body is being kept alive by the golden throne, but his life, or presense or essence is being kept alive by pure unflinching will power. Pretty selfless if you ask me. He's giving humanity the best shot he can in the alloted time he has left before the last cell in his body dies, then humanity is basically on their own... No astronominican, no divine power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225468-the-emperors-motives/#findComment-2719650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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