Fresh Blood, help needed

[AGPO]

Greetings all,

 

As a long time WFB player, I've made a couple of attempts at 40k in the past, the last of which was just before the Eye of Terror campaign way back in 2003. Anyway having got back into the hobby with the release of 8th ed Warhammer, I decided the time was ripe for another shot at some gothic sci-fi goodness.

 

Bearing in mind the only advice you ever seem to get from Redshirts is "BI MOAR MODELZ!" I was wondering if anyone could offer some advice on where to start? I'm much more of a modeller tha a gamer and don't play any power games, but even so I'd like not to get my ass handed to me every time I play. My previous stab at 40k was back in 3rd ed when everything was min-maxed towards shooting or combat. I therefore built myself a very firepower heavy Imperial Fists army without much in the way of assault troops or diversity. This time I'd like to do something different, so I'd like to go for an Angels Sanguine army with a bit of a blend of everything. A combination of game worthyness with a sprinkling of cool stuff. I have a very shaky grasp on the rules at present, but I do have a few questions already:

 

- What is a good points level to aim for initially?

- How many troops should I look at compared to other stuff and are tactical or assault squads a better early option?

- Are small elite units like death company and sanguinary guard worth having from a gaming perspective?

- Which is generally the best starting HQ - Captain, Reclusiarch or Librarian?

 

Many thanks in advance, and apologies if this topic has been done to death,

AGPO

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

Hey,

 

I do not know much about points but the best start (IMHO) are some Assault Marines backed up by Tactical Marines. Both the Death Company and the Sanguinary Guard can be very cost-effective if used properly.. They do tend to focus on assault though...

Finally, Captains aren't that good with Blood Angels, a Relusiarch is almost a must when using Death Company (and otherwise they are great as well) and the Librarian is also a very usefull HQ...

 

It all depends on playing-style and opponents of course :(

 

Greetings

[Taranis]

I prefer jump marines all the way. If you need to then buy spare backpacks and use magnets to switch between jump and foot/mech. Dc box is good. They can be used as any inf BA model. Reclusiarch and librarian are both good choicer. Reclusiarch model can also as heck chaplain elite choice. Sanguinary priests are vital to infantry heavy BA. 1500 points are a good level.

[Red Fury]

1500 points is good. You'll eventually want a good 2000 point army, but start at 1000 then 1500 and on to 2000. A lot of tournaments are in between 1500 -2000, like 1750 or 1850. The only tourneys bigger than 2000 are "Hard Boys" (2500) or Apocalypse games. For friendly play, 1500 points is a nice <2hr game.

 

Model count for marines, and especially BA, is difficult. As a BA player be prepared to be outnumbered all the time, even by other marines.

 

Small Elite squads are the BAs specialty, hence being outnumbered all the time. They are very valuable, and deliver the real punch to support your Assault squads. Assault squads (either with JPs or mounted in a razorback) are typically better than the Tactical squad option.

 

To start, the Reclusiarch is best. The Librarian does't have the stats, or an invulnerable save, and requires Psychic tests to do well. The Chaplain you can just point and shoot and expect good results, the Libby requires a bit more planning to use and care to protect him.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Hello AGPO & welcome to the B&C & 40K for that matter. AND, wise choice when it comes to the Angels Sanguine. Easily the finest Chapter every to grace the Emperor’s armed forces.

 

You’ve asked some very subjective questions and already gotten some very subjective answers. That’s fine, just realize that everyone (like WHFB) has a playing style and find their own game-winning options that work for them. Here’s some answers from the vantage of how the game mechanics work. From there, we can draw some conclusions about how that can translate into an army you’ll enjoy playing.

 

- What is a good points level to aim for initially?

This is as much a question of $ cost as environment. With some exceptions, smaller games start around 1,500 pts or so. In the US, 1,850 is a standard tourney level. ‘Ard Boyz tourneys go all the way up to 2,500. Do you have some local gamers for target practice? Maybe build some list at x points and then ramp-up to take on bigger games when you can.

 

- How many troops should I look at compared to other stuff and are tactical or assault squads a better early option?

Two of the 3 standard missions types rely on Troop units to capture objectives. They are unique in this regard. All other units can contest objectives (deny them to the other player) but cannot capture them for your own victory. That’s not the only criteria; a “Scoring Unit” is one from the Troops section that isn’t a vehicle, a swarm or doesn’t specify that it isn’t scoring. As with the Death Company. They qualify as a non-vehicle Troop unit but specify in their description that they are never scoring. So to take Death company = 1/6 scoring unit slots occupied by a non-scoring unit. Take a DC Dread and that’s 2/6 Troop slots that can’t score, etc.

 

Loyal Space Marines have a special rule called Combat Squads whereby they can split a 10-man unit into 2, 5-man units at the start of each game. This way, you can make a last min. change to increase the number of “Scoring Units.” So take 6, 10-man squads of either Tacticals or Assault marines you could start the game with 12 total scoring units.

 

- Are small elite units like death company and sanguinary guard worth having from a gaming perspective?

What you’ll find in all armies is there there’s a, “hammer to anvil” point of diversity. Some units are just capable of doing a lot of damage but may have an Achilles heel of some sort. In other words, despite their killing power they are vulnerable to a certain kind of attack. The “Meta Game” behind 40k list building is to have a counter to all the basic strengths possessed by your potential opponent.

 

For example:

Bug and/or Dameon-Zilla armies: Ones reliant on high Toughness, Monstrous Creatures

Mech armies: Ones reliant on lots of vehicles

Hoard armies: Ones reliant on lots of cheap infantry

Etc., etc.

 

Many elite units are perfect at countering one of the attributes listed above. A balanced army is one that is somewhat able to take on “all comers” or no matter what the strength of that army might be.

 

- Which is generally the best starting HQ - Captain, Reclusiarch or Librarian?

BA have a number of very outstanding unique characters and some of their generic HQ choices aren’t too bad either. For marines, I find that the right combination of HQ’s is more important that picking just one. If you take a Death Company, a Chaplain/Reclusiarch is almost mandatory; given the rerolled to-hits & wounds on the charge. Librarians are handy for a number of reasons like keeping a psychic hood around to counter enemy psychic powers. Again, combat role is more important than “which is best.” Think about how the HQ fits into the tactic of the army and go from there.

 

Sorry for the long winded response but you asked!

 

-OMG

[Angel of the Emperor]

- What is a good points level to aim for initially? 1500 or so is about the minimum most games will allow

 

- How many troops should I look at compared to other stuff and are tactical or assault squads a better early option? I usually take RAS (Regular Assault Squads) with jump packs, and at least 10 of those, to claim objectives and sniper scouts with cloaks and a missile laucher to hold

 

- Are small elite units like death company and sanguinary guard worth having from a gaming perspective? They are definately the only way BA work. Vanguard Vets with jump packs are the best of the small elites as they can assault from deep strike, i would generally support them with heavy bolter/multi melta land speeders and vindicators.

 

- Which is generally the best starting HQ - Captain, Reclusiarch or Librarian? The Libby is best by far, it can add a 5+ invul cover save if in the open and still gives rerolls to hit on each assault phase. The Reclusiarch is the 2nd best unfortunately the captain is nerfed in the worst way.

 

Hope this helps!!!

[AGPO]

Wow thanks for the responses guys. Definitely some food for thought in there. I think from what you've said I'm going to aquire/convert a chaplain and a box of tactical marines to start with and work from there, maybe picking up the death company box for bits purposes.

 

@Owlandmoonguy: Thanks for the epic response. It was actually your army that inspired me to go with Angels Sanguine. As far as local target practice goes, I live two roads down from a certain Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham. Don't know if you know the address :)

[JamesI]

Welcome AGPO!

 

As OMG said, everything is subjective. What works well for me might not work for you due to either metagame issues or just personal style of play.

 

I'd try to start playing around 1000 points, then work up to whatever the the norm for your local area (which will probably be between 1500 and 2000).

 

Personally, I think the Reclusiarch is the best HQ ignoring the special characters (I'm a huge Astorath fan). But the librarian offers a lot, just from his psychic defense. The poor captain just sits at home all the time.

 

The small elite units like HG, Vanguard, DC, SG can be worth it, again it depends on your style. DC don't work well for me, but I've had lots of success with Vanguard and am now giving SG a test run. No matter what I wouldn't use too many of these squads, unless you want a pure SG or pure DC army.

 

As for Troops, it depends on what you use. I use pretty much exclusively assault squads as troops. At 1850-2k, I'll run 3 10 man assault squads and be done with troops. If I were to run Scouts or SG as troops, I would probably have 5 or so units since the units tend to be smaller.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

@Owlandmoonguy: Thanks for the epic response. It was actually your army that inspired me to go with Angels Sanguine. As far as local target practice goes, I live two roads down from a certain Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham. Don't know if you know the address :huh:

Nottingham? Sheesh, those guys know nothing of the finer aspects of the game. :(

 

Have fun with us and keep us informed of your progress.

 

-OMG

[AGPO]

Well I've done a quick draft of a 1,500 points list I quite like the look of. It's a combination of stuff which should be effective and stuff I'd just like to paint.

 

HQ: Reclusiarch with jump pack and plasma pistol

 

Troops 1: 6 man Death Company with jump packs, power fist and hand flamer

 

Troops 2: 10 man assault squad with meltagun, and sergeant with power fist

 

Troops 3: 10 man tactical squad with plasma gun and plasma cannon

 

Troops 4: 10 man tactical squad with meltagun and missile launcher

 

Elites 1: 5 man terminator squad with two chainfists and assault cannon

 

Elites 2.1: Sanguinary priest with jump pack and hand flamer

 

Elites 2.2: Sanguinary priest with jump pack and inferno pistol

 

Elites 2.3: Sanguinary priest in terminator armour with power sword

 

The idea is to have the reclusiarch and the priest with the inferno pistol join the death company (I know points sink) whilst the second priest joins the assault squad and the one in termi armour joins my terminators. I figure this army has a nice blend of troops for objective taking and fire support, a fast, flexible unit in the assault squad and two heavy hitters in the terminators and death company. I chose termis over Sanguinary Guard or vanguard becasue a) I love the terminator models and B) I figure they should be slightly more forgiving whilst I'm learning.

 

I daresay this list will now get torn apart. Any suggestions?

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Here are some thoughts but I’m not expecting to be agreed with in many cases:

 

Plasma & special characters: I’m not a big fan of plasma (with the exception of las/pas Razorback turrets). The risk of failing an armor save and harming a high point character isn’t worth it to me. Besides, you want your Reclusiarch killing things in close combat, not shooting them.

 

All infantry BA armies use to be my favorite builds but they don’t fare well on the fields of 5th Edition 40K. A good number of armies can fire weapons that negate the marines’ 3+ armor save (AP 3 weapons) and even drop large templates (the larger circles often called pie plates) at AP3. You can still take cover saves but it’s inevitable that your troops will be exposed and potentially swept off the table.

 

This army is weak in the anti-tank department. The Jump Infantry can power fist them but give them 2 melta guns and you’ll have much better odds being successful in a tank hunting role. Let the Reclusiarch/DC squad be your heavy hitting, close combat squad and your jump assault the counter attack & tank hunting unit. Lascannons in your tactical squads would help that out as well.

 

Inferno pistols & hand flamers are novel but are difficult to justify based on their point cost. Meltaguns & flamers do the same jobs, are better, cheaper and just cost you a bonus attack in close combat. So I prefer the larger weapons in all cases.

 

With the lack of transports it will be difficult for this army to mount a sizable assault down-table. As with the Secure & Control mission, a portion of your army needs to hang back and defend your objective while an excursion force goes off to claim your opponent’s objective. The army can “castle up” very effectively but will have to foot slog to take objectives down table. BA have the unique advantage of Fast tanks. They are extremely effective at taking last min. objectives & redeploying your army quickly throughout the game.

 

Just some thoughts to consider.

 

Cheers, -OMG

[AGPO]

Once again thanks for the in depth response. I've made a few modifications to the list:

 

Out: The Reclusiarch's plasma pistol, one sanguinary priest with jump pack, all hand flamers and inferno pistols, one death company marine

 

In: Two rhinos for the tactical squad with extra armour and two storm bolters, extra meltagun for the assault squad, changed the tactical squad's loadout to melta and lascannon and melta and missile launcher respectively.

 

That gives me the extra tank killing and speed you mentioned. When I bump the army up a bit I can maybe fit in some MM attack bikes/speeders, a vindicator and maybe a swap the reclusiarch for a librarian and Lemartes?