Bjorn

[Grimfoe]

I was looking at my army and different options. Thinking of using a couple of Long Fang squads. Then I thought of using Bjorn to sit back with them and fire away while providing the CC protection for the squads. He is a bit of a beast after all. Then I noticed that his whopping point cost doesn't even include extra armor!

 

 

So, is he even worth considering? He was one of my favorite models back in the day, but without the armor I'm not sure I like him very much. How many of you have used him? Did his higher front armor compensate for the lack of extra armor?

[Growler67]

He was once more viable when he was truly "Venerable'. Since the redistribution of "Venerable" he is merely a shadow of his once glorious self. I haven't played him since 3rd Edition so how he fairs these days I cannot answer, but if it were up to me tomodel him, he would be truly magnificent and awe inspiring.

 

 

It's on the list BTW.

[Grimfoe]

Sorry. "on the list?"

[MaveriK]

I'm gonna assume that the "list" is models to build and do.

--EDIT--

the only thing that bothers me with Bjorn is the lack of a drop pod for the guy.

[Grimfoe]

LOL. Sorry. Thought I had missed something in my reading. That list. Should have known. Mine is quite large. I don't want to get into comparing, though. :D

[MaveriK]

nothing to be sorry about, happens to the best of us! Bjorn is on my to-do list also hahaha.

[Kanis]

I've wondered this same thing lately, and having that extra armor is a big deal on Dreadnoughts, I feel. Bjorn's a powerful character, but with one of the biggest price tag's around, and not having the armor of extraness, I am finding it hard to include him in my lists even though I'd love to sometime.

[Logan230]

I personally love Bjorn and use him quite frequently. Between the AV13, the 5+ invul, and the venerable rule, he is quite difficult to bring down. While he is a point sink, I believe he is worth the "Aww frak" factor that he brings to the table. I hold him in on my back line with my other dreadnoughts as a deployment zone defense but once I let him wade into combat, things start dieing. Its especially satisfying to let him wonder into a squad of marines without a fist and he just kills them. 4 Attacks even at I3 is still 4 S10 attacks from a Dreadnought. I arm him with a Plasma cannon considering his BS6 allows for very little deviation in most places.

 

Its a lot about play style because you cant let him just advance forward, if he dies, it kinda sucks considering he either gives up more kill points or is another objective. So, if you are like me and play a more shooting style of list, then I think he is awesome because he can help support your firebase, then in the last couple of turns, wade forward and help with the clean up.

 

Edit: missed the original bit: yeah it does suck that he doesnt have extra armor, and that is my primary reason for not just letting him wade forward because a result of a 2 on the die leaves him still for a turn and easier to maneuver around. A drop pod would be fraking epic for both the action and the thematic visuals :blush: I have awoken!

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I've found him to be quite horrible when I used him in a tournament.

 

A plasma cannon look fabulous at first glance (just about no scattering in most cases). But then the real world hits you like a ton of bricks when you actually play him, and with that comes the secong glance and second thoughts. It won't kill anywhere near as much as you'd like. Against any decent opponent (by that I mean someone who's learned the lesson that infantry is under no circumstances to be left bunched up), you'll score 4 hits at best. Assuming that 5/6 of those wound and then 1/2 of them actually go through the cover save, you're left with 1.67 kills. And that's quite pitiful.

 

Bjorn sitting back and shooting, therefore, is not an option if you don't want to be playing at a constant disadvantage (you're basically spending land raider type points on a plasma cannon that can be had for much less on long fangs, and all you lose is 2" of accuracy, and let's face it - that makes just about no difference if you place it properly).

 

You therefore want Bjorn in combat, and that's where his lack of extra armour comes knocking. Loudly. It means he's very easy to stop. Add to that the fact that most people will stay well clear of the guy because they know what he's capable of (with 6" movement and no fleet, he has to get lucky to catch anything that doesn't want to be caught), and you're paying through the nose for a CC monster that won't get into melee, and if it does it will most likely be with something that'll destroy him.

 

Armour 13, venerable and that 5+ ward also seems tougher than it is. Mine still died to krak missiles. Frequently. Or meltas. They don't much care about having to re-roll the damage result. Mostly it just means the guy will explode rather than just be wrecked.

 

As you can see, I'm not very fond of him because he's just not designed very well. He can't shoot properly, yet has BS6. And he's a CC monster yet can't get there. Someone in GW wasn't thinking straight when they didn't give him the option to get at least a drop pod. Or extra armour. And he doesn't have a searchlight either... I guess the accountants have finally taken over the fang as well and decided what's really needed is some budget cuts so they don't miss out on their christmas bonus and five-star cruise in the winter holidays. I guess that's fair...

 

The thing is - GW has shown they can make a coherent army. Just look at the grey knights. They need to get into combat quickly because they'll get shot to pieces if they don't, so they have storm ravens. Units with invul saves like termies with storm shields will ruin their day... and whopdedoo and fiddeledee, in comes that blasted assassin that steals invul saves. For fun. That's why I don't understand how Bjorn made it into the list the way he is. The rest of our codex is (mostly) beautifully done. Why that brain fart?

[Decoy]

Honestly, I use Bjorn the way I use my Lone Wolves; Damned if you kill him, damned if you don't. I keep 'em back amidst my Long Fangs, pouring firepower downrange and making a general nuisance of himself. If he dies, he's with my Fangs and isn't worth KP, and if he dies in an Objective mission, boom, I have a free objective right in my DZ. (I'm often keen to have him guard a backpost objective.)

 

I can't begin to tell you how many people -don't- shoot at him simply because if they do kill him, he becomes an objective lodged so far in my rear lines that it's a guaranteed capture on my part. That means that if he's not getting shot, he continues to pour firepower at the enemy. Thanks to the aforementioned survivability, a fair bit of firepower that blasts at him abruptly finds itself wasted, and if I really want him to die, I can always Venerable-rule a reroll in the hopes that he blows up, granting me the objective that I need. (Let's not even begin discussing the Fearless benefits.)

 

Bjorn isn't designed well on the combat role, and I think that suits him, fitting of his degrading mental status over the course of millennia. However, he is absolutely perfect for a tactical role; if he lives, he keeps firing until the game is over. If he dies, I get Fearless and a free objective. Seems pretty win-win to me.

[Logan230]

I've found him to be quite horrible when I used him in a tournament.

 

A plasma cannon look fabulous at first glance (just about no scattering in most cases). But then the real world hits you like a ton of bricks when you actually play him, and with that comes the secong glance and second thoughts. It won't kill anywhere near as much as you'd like. Against any decent opponent (by that I mean someone who's learned the lesson that infantry is under no circumstances to be left bunched up), you'll score 4 hits at best. Assuming that 5/6 of those wound and then 1/2 of them actually go through the cover save, you're left with 1.67 kills. And that's quite pitiful.

 

Bjorn sitting back and shooting, therefore, is not an option if you don't want to be playing at a constant disadvantage (you're basically spending land raider type points on a plasma cannon that can be had for much less on long fangs, and all you lose is 2" of accuracy, and let's face it - that makes just about no difference if you place it properly).

 

You therefore want Bjorn in combat, and that's where his lack of extra armour comes knocking. Loudly. It means he's very easy to stop. Add to that the fact that most people will stay well clear of the guy because they know what he's capable of (with 6" movement and no fleet, he has to get lucky to catch anything that doesn't want to be caught), and you're paying through the nose for a CC monster that won't get into melee, and if it does it will most likely be with something that'll destroy him.

 

Armour 13, venerable and that 5+ ward also seems tougher than it is. Mine still died to krak missiles. Frequently. Or meltas. They don't much care about having to re-roll the damage result. Mostly it just means the guy will explode rather than just be wrecked.

 

As you can see, I'm not very fond of him because he's just not designed very well. He can't shoot properly, yet has BS6. And he's a CC monster yet can't get there. Someone in GW wasn't thinking straight when they didn't give him the option to get at least a drop pod. Or extra armour. And he doesn't have a searchlight either... I guess the accountants have finally taken over the fang as well and decided what's really needed is some budget cuts so they don't miss out on their christmas bonus and five-star cruise in the winter holidays. I guess that's fair...

 

The thing is - GW has shown they can make a coherent army. Just look at the grey knights. They need to get into combat quickly because they'll get shot to pieces if they don't, so they have storm ravens. Units with invul saves like termies with storm shields will ruin their day... and whopdedoo and fiddeledee, in comes that blasted assassin that steals invul saves. For fun. That's why I don't understand how Bjorn made it into the list the way he is. The rest of our codex is (mostly) beautifully done. Why that brain fart?

 

I'm going to disagree, people always go on about mathhammer and dont think about the psychological effects of units. What will you do when you are opposite of Bjorn? Avoid him, thats the smart thing to do. This gives you (as his general) the opportunity to drive your opponents army around board potentially, nobody wants to be in range of a plasma cannon, regardless of how spread out, and nobody wants to be anywhere near assault range. Bjorn isn't a monster you just drive up the board with your rhinos (if he had extra armor I might), he is more of a rear echelon/ late game clean up unit in my opinion. If you just drive him forward, then yes he will die. Thats what they invented hills and cover for.

 

Bjorn is the kind of character that does not get his points back by driving him up the center, thats a good way to kill anything with an AV, if he is killed by a melta shot, then you did something wrong early. He is a tie-breaker. You know that combat of marine on marine action thats been stalling out for two turns and its turn 4? Send Bjorn there. The outflanked (insert here) that are threatening your Long Fangs? Send Bjorn. That furioso with blood talons that eating through your marines and the Long Fangs cant shoot it? Send Bjorn.

 

Yeah it makes for good story to have him in the center, but you have to treat him like a expensive Dreadnought, cause he is one. If you are measuring how useful something is by the points it kills, then you are not playing him for the right reasons. Is he the most competitive thing out there on legs? No, not really. Does he do his job of adding a voice in your opponents head and placing a targeting reticle on his sarcophagus? Yes, he does, so keep him back so your opponent only throws the lascannons and long range junk at him, and let your grey hunters do all the work as is proper.

 

Want a hammer HQ? Then go get a ThunderLord. Want something not quite as straight forward? Take Bjorn.

[dragon950]

Thing that bugs me is that he only has I3, but he can get into combat against some named characters and tear them to pieces. Might use him if I play against a dark eldar that likes to use webway portals.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I'm going to disagree, people always go on about mathhammer and dont think about the psychological effects of units. What will you do when you are opposite of Bjorn? Avoid him, thats the smart thing to do.

 

Errr... what makes you think I haven't thought about the psychological effect of Bjorn?

The fact of the matter is, any general worth his salt will know what the guy can do, and therefore the psychological effect is limited because they all know that plasma cannons, unless used en masse aren't particularly impressive. You can't say something that doesn't do very much damage (not even potentially) has much psychological effect on people who know what it can do. Demon princes have psychological effect. Avatars do (sort of) and hundreds of termagaunts coming at you have psychological effect. A geriatric in a metal box who left his weapons at home... not so much.

 

This gives you (as his general) the opportunity to drive your opponents army around board potentially, nobody wants to be in range of a plasma cannon, regardless of how spread out, and nobody wants to be anywhere near assault range.

 

Few people care about a single plasma cannon. If you're spread out and in cover, they don't matter. And people who are scared of plasma cannons for no reason at all obviously haven't been playing for very long. Psychological effect is what you get from a leman russ exterminator throwing out 5 plasma templates of that. Of that I am scared. With good reason.

 

Bjorn is the kind of character that does not get his points back by driving him up the center, thats a good way to kill anything with an AV, if he is killed by a melta shot, then you did something wrong early.

 

What makes you think I drove him straight up the center? I didn't, and that's the mistake I made. He should have supported my rhinos moving forward because then at least he's got some sort of chance of drawing fire away from them and getting into combat one day. As for making a mistake early... Really? ever heard of vendettas dropping 10-man suicide veterans wherever they fancy on the board? not a whole lot you can do about that.

 

Yeah it makes for good story to have him in the center, but you have to treat him like a expensive Dreadnought, cause he is one. If you are measuring how useful something is by the points it kills, then you are not playing him for the right reasons. Is he the most competitive thing out there on legs? No, not really. Does he do his job of adding a voice in your opponents head and placing a targeting reticle on his sarcophagus? Yes, he does, so keep him back so your opponent only throws the lascannons and long range junk at him, and let your grey hunters do all the work as is proper.

 

I don't measure how useful he is by the points he kills. But quite frankly, suggesting to use a HQ that kills 1.67 models per turn at range and costs a fortune does not qualify as good advice. Yes, in a fun game you can have a blast with him, running up the board trying to rack up a kill count (because that's what he likes to do, judging by his 4 attacks and WS6).

 

The simple truth is - most opponents don't get that voice in their head that tells them to kill it. Most of them are glad you brought something horrendously costly that doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Your opponent will quite happily take those 2 or 3 losses at turn and point his lascannons at your rhinos until they're all dead. Then, when he runs out of armoured targets he'll probably point them at Bjorn. Because he can.

[Kanis]

I think limiting his armaments to just the Plasma cannon isn't a good debate. While he does cost a lot, and his BS6 makes a blast template near "unscatterable", the few times I've used him, I used the standard Assault Cannon, and it shredded a good deal of things (since I see lots of Rhino's/4+ save targets), since it never missed, and for some reason Assault Cannons do more to tanks than most things in my group.

 

I think it's a scary unit for sure, but it comes down to the player your facing, I don't think it's "anyone worth salt", just how they deal with things. My best friend and I have played for over nine years, and we can still scare one another with units if we use them right, or just plain take units we never normally do, because we don't know what to expect right away.

 

If he had extra armor, I think Bjorn would be over powered, after thinking about it, much like the Librarian Dreadnoughts of the Blood Angels, it need to be there as a balance with all the other abilities, or he'd really be hard to stop from eating units.

[Grimfoe]

Extra Armor would make him very powerful, indeed. But for almost 300 points, he should be.

 

 

I can't see where I would field Bjorn in the place of a Ven dread. I think the Ven Dread is more survivable, and for fewer points. I'm not sure until I try, but it sure seems that way.

[Aeddon]

I can't see where I would field Bjorn in the place of a Ven dread. I think the Ven Dread is more survivable, and for fewer points. I'm not sure until I try, but it sure seems that way.

More survivable based on what? Bjorn has an extra point of armor on the front, a 5++ invulnerable save and he is venerable to boot! I just don't understand what you're trying to point out here.

[Grimfoe]

In the purest mathmatical sense, Bjorn can survive more hits. But every time you penetrate his armor, he's going to sit around for the next turn with his lightning claw up his arse. I think this lack of firepower will ultimately make him more easy to kill than a Ven Dread. I think he'll end up being shot more and will be killed sooner in the game.

 

If you manage to pen him before combat weapon before the battle even starts. Like I said, though, I'm not sure this analysis is correct. I want to try them both and see.

[MalachiOfRuss]

The thing is - GW has shown they can make a coherent army. Just look at the grey knights. They need to get into combat quickly because they'll get shot to pieces if they don't, so they have storm ravens. Units with invul saves like termies with storm shields will ruin their day... and whopdedoo and fiddeledee, in comes that blasted assassin that steals invul saves. For fun. That's why I don't understand how Bjorn made it into the list the way he is. The rest of our codex is (mostly) beautifully done. Why that brain fart?

Bjorn not having Extra Armor is not the only "brain fart:"

"Hey, Arjac has Stubborn! That means I can put him in a squad and keep their Leadership at.... oh wait, it only works when he's alone."

"Lukas the Trickster has this cool 'can't hit me ability', that I means I can... oh wait, that only works when no one else is in the squad."

"Wow, Njal Stormcaller has all these cool abilities that just happen for free! I'll take him and... oh wait, half of them only work when I'm going first?"

[Grey Mage]

I love Bjeorn- I usually field him with a Plasmacannon or Assault Cannon.

 

Plasmacannon tends to go after high priority targets- enemy HQs are a favorite, and especially things like battlesuit commanders and monstrous creatures.

 

Hes tough, but the lack of extra armor is a kick in the groin some games.... and the sad part, theres some games where the tactically sound thing is to have him moon the enemy army and hope they wreck him for the extra objective- particularly in capture and control ;)

 

Its truely sad that the most beloved hero of my chapter is sometimes worth more as a corpse. I feel dirty even thinkin about it.

[Sarapham]

Bjorn not having Extra Armor is not the only "brain fart:"

"Hey, Arjac has Stubborn! That means I can put him in a squad and keep their Leadership at.... oh wait, it only works when he's alone."

 

That actually fits in rather nicely with his fluff, being the last man standing he will damn well hold the line! ;)

[Simo429]

I like him, I use him in big games, always does well and even if he dies he's an extra objective.

[RipherChost]

It is very nice to see a few tactics listed for Bjorn as I would love to feild him with three other dreads at some point. Maybe Bjorn back field, two in pods and the other walking along side a couple rhinos. Anyhow, he seems over priced just like any other special character so the points cost is almost expected when a named unit is chosen, o well. No one has mentioned his Ancient Tactician ability much, maybe it is not worth mentioning? Still I am sure the ability counts towards the beastly cost... O yeah, he has Smoke Launchers, a Wolf Tail Talisman and Saga of the Majesty to boot.

I doubt I would use him in a tournement though, due to the need/want to spend the points elsewhere.

 

PS. Bjorn = coolest dread ever, I think he was my third purchase for my wolves back in 2nd ed.

[Skarvald the Troll-faced]

I love how you guys say he is overpriced for what he does in the game, completely ignoring his special rules and getting in the argument that he'll never make his points... despite like 90% of named HQ's having the same problem. How about the tactical advantage?

 

Re-rolling the dice to see who pics their deployment zone first? HUGE. We all know that sometimes terrain decides games, especially if you are packing a lot of Long Fangs and you really need the side with the tall buildings in the middle.

 

Besides, in some cases you want him to die and his death can win you games. Giving your entire army Fearless? Yeah, I'll take it. You mean my TWC is now immune to some psychic power shenanigans and random lucky shots won't send my Long Fangs running away with tails between their legs?

In objective games his death counts as an extra objective? Cool, now every time your opponent is shooting at him they have to decide if it's worth it.. because you know, if he died you get an objective in your deployment zone. Throughout the game you move him slowly to an objective you hold that is pretty secure and far away from the enemy and if a lucky lascannon blows him to pieces.. well then you control two objectives at the same time. With one Troops choice.

 

Also, the thing about his Plasma Cannon being useless is bull. It is ALWAYS nice to have, especially since you're never going to give your Long Fangs one. A single plasma cannon that's pretty tough to kill will make your opponents think twice before they deep strike anything near him, because of the melta fails the squad is gone.. Plus it can't overheat on a Dreadnought, right?

 

Not to mention that he is probably one of the best Saga of Majesty characters in the codex. Position him between your Long Fangs and they'll thin twice before they flee from enemy shooting.

 

That being, I've never fielded him... ;D

[Valerian]

Extra Armor would make him very powerful, indeed. But for almost 300 points, he should be.

 

 

I can't see where I would field Bjorn in the place of a Ven dread. I think the Ven Dread is more survivable, and for fewer points. I'm not sure until I try, but it sure seems that way.

 

Yeah, I agree. Bjorn misses out on three important things: 1. No Extra Armour, 2. Initiative 3, and 3. No Drop Pod Access.

 

At the price that you are paying for the guy, having what they didn't give him would be fully justified. None of this makes him useless, of course, and others have pointed out how they have successfully incorporated him into games. He's got some capabilities that are very useful. However, for those points I just can't justify paying for Bjorn when I can spend half the points for a regular Venerable Dread, who can do almost as much, and is actually more flexible (since I can transport him in a Drop Pod, if need be).

 

It is unfortunate for me, as I'd really like to be able to take advantage of our ability to take more HQ selections, and to free up an Elite slot, and would love to include Bjorn in games again (haven't gotten to since 2nd Edition). I've used my Bjorn model in every game I've played in this edition, but he's always just been a regular Dread or Venerable Dread, depending on the points I had available.

 

Valerian

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

I love how you guys say he is overpriced for what he does in the game, completely ignoring his special rules and getting in the argument that he'll never make his points... despite like 90% of named HQ's having the same problem. How about the tactical advantage?

 

I've never once mentioned him not making his points back. I don't think that way, ever. I've been arguing that he doesn't cause enough damage (directly of indirectly) to be worth his points.

 

Re-rolling the dice to see who pics their deployment zone first? HUGE. We all know that sometimes terrain decides games, especially if you are packing a lot of Long Fangs and you really need the side with the tall buildings in the middle.

 

If one side has more cover available than the other, you're doing something wrong. Setting up a battlefield like that is letting the dice decide who gets an unfair advantage to begin with... not exactly the best thing to do in a tournament or otherwise (unless you're playing a siege scenario or something). You said you've never fielded him, yet you call his ability to reroll that dice huge? err, let me tell you that it isn't. I've fielded him in 6 or 7 tournament games, and never once did that ability make much of a difference. The terrain was very balanced so deployment zones didn't matter much. And thanks to seizing the initiative you have to plan your army set up in a way that doesn't mean you're screwed if you're going second, therefore makes you less able to capitalize on the fact that most likely you'll be going first.

 

Besides, in some cases you want him to die and his death can win you games. Giving your entire army Fearless? Yeah, I'll take it. You mean my TWC is now immune to some psychic power shenanigans and random lucky shots won't send my Long Fangs running away with tails between their legs?

In objective games his death counts as an extra objective? Cool, now every time your opponent is shooting at him they have to decide if it's worth it.. because you know, if he died you get an objective in your deployment zone. Throughout the game you move him slowly to an objective you hold that is pretty secure and far away from the enemy and if a lucky lascannon blows him to pieces.. well then you control two objectives at the same time. With one Troops choice.

 

And that's another thing that bugs me... the only time that guy actually won me a game is when he died. a 10 000 year old relic who has seen Leman Russ walk the stars blown up because a measly wolf lord couldn't be bothered using proper tactics to win the battle... yeah, I see how that makes sense.

 

"We didn't storm the fortress m'lord, but Skalf sneakily blew up bjorn with his melta, and they haven't pushed us out of the landing zone just yet, so technically we won this battle..."

"Try telling that to the chaos scum, you idiot! I'm sure they'll see your point and vacate the premises without a fuss..."

 

Also, the thing about his Plasma Cannon being useless is bull. It is ALWAYS nice to have, especially since you're never going to give your Long Fangs one. A single plasma cannon that's pretty tough to kill will make your opponents think twice before they deep strike anything near him

 

Oh, it's bull is it? In the same sentence you say that plasma cannos are great and that you'd never give your long fangs one... they can't be that great then. Yeah your opponent will think twice before landing anywhere near, then do it anyway because on second thought he remembers that the squad was meant to be a suicide squad anyway. And blows bjorn sky high with 4 BS4 melta shots (mind you, even IG forego deepstrikign melta squads these days - landing veterans in valkyries is just so much more precise and reliably, and they won't think twice about that).

 

The only time a plasma cannon really pays off is when someone without an invul save does deepstrike somewhere in range (and that's also the only time you'll be glad to have BS6 so you most likely will go spot on). Thing is, in the current metagame (at least where I play), that doesn't matter much because few people deepstrike their units. Deepstriking is too random for most to accept because mostly it will be a small suicide squad whose arrival or otherwise is of little consequence, so there wasn't much point in the first place. You can't rely on deepstriking squads to blow up anything because for starters you won't know when they'll show up, and then you also don't really know where they'll show up. So you have to plan your battle without them and then you might as well not have taken them in the first place.