Bjorn

[Orphus]

Bjorn isn't too bad...solid fire magnet though. Last game ages ago vs Necron he took out quite a few with the plasma cannon but then become immobilised and lost the cannon. Charged by Necron Lord, he killed it, but it got back up and finished Bjorn off. Havn't played since then really and to top it off the dog got him :tu: little bugger :D.

[Korhal Ragingspirit]

There are a lot of valid statements here. It seems like they attempted to make Bjorn "Fluffy" but I think they fell a little short. I was really excited when our new codex was announced (overall I am happy with it) and was looking forward to Bjorn being the big box of awesome that he should be. His 13AV front, 5 Invuln, and Venerable makes him tough nut to crack but definitely not impossible. As it has been said his lack of Extra Armor is disappointing. His overall combat abilities are good but I feel they could have been a little creative. Bjorn has always been depicted with his signature dreadnought lightning claw, how about a Wolf Claw type weapon with his Str 7 or 8. Maybe master crafted assault cannon? It just seems like 10,000 year old Dread who walked alongside Leman Russ himself that is probably more venerated than Logan Grimnar would be given the best equipment available in the armory.

[Grey Mage]

The only time a plasma cannon really pays off is when someone without an invul save does deepstrike somewhere in range (and that's also the only time you'll be glad to have BS6 so you most likely will go spot on). Thing is, in the current metagame (at least where I play), that doesn't matter much because few people deepstrike their units. Deepstriking is too random for most to accept because mostly it will be a small suicide squad whose arrival or otherwise is of little consequence, so there wasn't much point in the first place. You can't rely on deepstriking squads to blow up anything because for starters you won't know when they'll show up, and then you also don't really know where they'll show up. So you have to plan your battle without them and then you might as well not have taken them in the first place.

I think thats silly. I can think of a dozen other times I want a plasmacannon shot with high accuracy off the top of my head:

1) Poping transports. If it scattered I might not get my pen roll at all.

2) Tau Battlesuits- its not uncommon for them to run around with a pair of drones for bodygaurds, particularly the 2+ save broadsides. Sniping these monstrosities and their drones with high accuracy is a godsend.

3) Finishing off devastated units- after the artillery is done, after the grey hunters have rapid fired, its not horribly uncommon for one or two men to be left standing- why take the chance, just killem now.

4) Its AP 2. FNP is increasingly common, and the more plasma in my army, the better. Putting a wound on mephiston each turn is worth the shot to me- especially since bjeorn is still mobile.

5) Skill shots- I want to hit that transport, and the squad that disembarked out of it- so Ill place it as such, confident in its relative lack of drift. Etc.

6) Epic. Having Bjorn on the field is epic- wich raises my Morale, and in turn increases the fun Im having- wich, believe it or not, helps my dice rolls immensely. Almost as much as mead.

 

As for deepstriking units, Im sorry that theres not a gifted person in your area who can show people the viability of deepstrike- and your right, that means in your meta that the chances of that particular sort of shot are low. Why are their deepstriking units so unpredictable?

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

While they are all things that a plasma cannon can do, I don't think it's worth getting Bjorn for that. I wasn't as much bashing plasma cannons (I know they can be good - if nothing else, they stop opponents moving out into the open), what I meant to say was that taking Bjorn just because he's got a BS6 plasma cannon is not worth it.

 

I think thats silly.

 

Good. I like silly a lot better than calling what I say bull :)

 

I can think of a dozen other times I want a plasmacannon shot with high accuracy off the top of my head:

1) Poping transports. If it scattered I might not get my pen roll at all.

2) Tau Battlesuits- its not uncommon for them to run around with a pair of drones for bodygaurds, particularly the 2+ save broadsides. Sniping these monstrosities and their drones with high accuracy is a godsend.

3) Finishing off devastated units- after the artillery is done, after the grey hunters have rapid fired, its not horribly uncommon for one or two men to be left standing- why take the chance, just killem now.

4) Its AP 2. FNP is increasingly common, and the more plasma in my army, the better. Putting a wound on mephiston each turn is worth the shot to me- especially since bjeorn is still mobile.

5) Skill shots- I want to hit that transport, and the squad that disembarked out of it- so Ill place it as such, confident in its relative lack of drift. Etc.

6) Epic. Having Bjorn on the field is epic- wich raises my Morale, and in turn increases the fun Im having- wich, believe it or not, helps my dice rolls immensely. Almost as much as mead.

 

Hmm... that's only half a dozen :D

 

1) Yes, of course it can be (ab)used for this - but I'd rather point a lascannon or an autocannon, or plasma gun at a transport. It does the job just as well or better and won't scatter.

2) True, but then you don't see a lot of Tau around these days. Against tau they are quite useful. Although broadsides wouldn't be my first target because their pesky shield drones will still hold up two turns of shooting, and by then I'm going to have my bikes in position.

3) There's better things for doing that. I have my predators take over that job. They also do the popping transports thing quite well, so plasmas aren't filling an otherwise empty niche.

4) True, can't argue that. Although how you put a wound on mephiston if he's in assault marines I don't understand. He'll just allocate those 3 or 4 hits to normal marines until they're all gone or he's all over you. I like to take normal plasma guns for that, though because they're more readily available.

5) Again, can't argue that but seeing as the squad will have usually disembarked behind the vehicle, they'll get a cover save. And even 1" scatter means you can't damage the vehicle any more so that's kind of problematic.

6) Really can't argue with that...

 

As for deepstriking units, Im sorry that theres not a gifted person in your area who can show people the viability of deepstrike- and your right, that means in your meta that the chances of that particular sort of shot are low. Why are their deepstriking units so unpredictable?

 

Ah, well they're just not heavily relied on. I know they can be effective. But the effective ones are usually the ones that can drop dead set next to me (teleport homers) and then I don't really want plasma shots flying their way. I know that drop pod armies and such can be devastating, but the problem is that most people have learned to deal with those.

Why are they that unreliable? well, I don't like how they randomly arrive so that I can't really play as if they'd show up when I want them to because if I do, that means I'm screwed if they don't (and thanks to the dice, they usually don't). What's to stop my wolf lord using his eye-phone-thing to call in the reserves when they're needed? He can even use skype, it's free then so the accountants won't complain (I wonder what space wolves call their accountants...). The other problem is that they scatter. And usually I would want them somewhere they can't really scatter. And I don't like how they're stuck on foot, out in the open (because it'd be foolish to deepstrike into cover). The lack of mobility is what gets me most of all. All my units either have rhinos, are tanks or are on a bike. Or wolf scouts because at least they don't scatter, although I find even them too unreliable.

[Grey Mage]

You seem a very pessimistic person.

 

Hmm... that's only half a dozen ^_^

 

1) Yes, of course it can be (ab)used for this - but I'd rather point a lascannon or an autocannon, or plasma gun at a transport. It does the job just as well or better and won't scatter.

True, but every shot counts- the versatility is in and of itself a bonus.

 

And yes, I know its half a dozen :ph34r:, with is also what I meant to say earlier... my bad. If you like I could think up another six reasons though?

 

2) True, but then you don't see a lot of Tau around these days. Against tau they are quite useful. Although broadsides wouldn't be my first target because their pesky shield drones will still hold up two turns of shooting, and by then I'm going to have my bikes in position.

Ah, and theres a meta-difference. About 1/10 players here runs tau, fairly popular for a xenos army.

 

 

3) There's better things for doing that. I have my predators take over that job. They also do the popping transports thing quite well, so plasmas aren't filling an otherwise empty niche.

I dont run predators, as I find that long fangs do the same job, more efficiently, and are harder to kill.

 

My poor sad annihilators- sitting and gathering dust for a while now.... 4 years almost.

 

 

4) True, can't argue that. Although how you put a wound on mephiston if he's in assault marines I don't understand. He'll just allocate those 3 or 4 hits to normal marines until they're all gone or he's all over you. I like to take normal plasma guns for that, though because they're more readily available.

He cant be in a unit of assault marines- hes not an independant character. No wound allocation games for him- hell get a cover save, if hes obscured, and possibly FNP- wich is why hitting him with AP 2 and so ignoring armor and FNP is so important.

 

5) Again, can't argue that but seeing as the squad will have usually disembarked behind the vehicle, they'll get a cover save. And even 1" scatter means you can't damage the vehicle any more so that's kind of problematic.

Cover saves still end up in casualties as often as not- and if theyre hiding behind the transport theyre nicely packed. Better to have the ability to hit them that not at all.

 

6) Really can't argue with that...

Im glad. Epicness is always a valid argument.

 

As for deepstriking units, Im sorry that theres not a gifted person in your area who can show people the viability of deepstrike- and your right, that means in your meta that the chances of that particular sort of shot are low. Why are their deepstriking units so unpredictable?

 

Ah, well they're just not heavily relied on. I know they can be effective. But the effective ones are usually the ones that can drop dead set next to me (teleport homers) and then I don't really want plasma shots flying their way. I know that drop pod armies and such can be devastating, but the problem is that most people have learned to deal with those.

Im curious- as I play a heavily drop podding army- how do they tend to deal with those in your area? In mine theyve yet to find reliable counters I cant counter-counter... except those darn IG executioners, curse their black hearts.

 

Why are they that unreliable? well, I don't like how they randomly arrive so that I can't really play as if they'd show up when I want them to because if I do, that means I'm screwed if they don't (and thanks to the dice, they usually don't). What's to stop my wolf lord using his eye-phone-thing to call in the reserves when they're needed? He can even use skype, it's free then so the accountants won't complain (I wonder what space wolves call their accountants...). The other problem is that they scatter. And usually I would want them somewhere they can't really scatter. And I don't like how they're stuck on foot, out in the open (because it'd be foolish to deepstrike into cover). The lack of mobility is what gets me most of all. All my units either have rhinos, are tanks or are on a bike. Or wolf scouts because at least they don't scatter, although I find even them too unreliable.

I see- well the reason he cant would be that theyre deployed using very long distances- exact time to impact is affected by alot of things, and depending on how long we think of a turn as being, theyre relatively precise. I suppose the real idea though is to make the unit tough enough that no matter when it comes in- as itll always come sooner or later- itll make a dramatic entrance and a solid impact *no pun intended* on the game.

 

Accountants are called, for the record, Silver Smiths- and when theyre not bondsmen they tend to be Wolf Priests ;).

 

So... using drop pods, wich reduce scatter tell you dont misshap, I find its actually easier to get precision landings close to enemy units- I have to end up 1" away from the enemy, and then I can deploy 2" out from the pods base.... get my specials a clear line of sight, and as many bolters as i feel needed, if its an ordnance heavy table Ill deploy to grant myself a cover save against all LOS I can manage..... its pretty darn reliable. I end up with a misshap maybe every two dozen games? From scattering off the table edge like a dumby.

 

While they are all things that a plasma cannon can do, I don't think it's worth getting Bjorn for that. I wasn't as much bashing plasma cannons (I know they can be good - if nothing else, they stop opponents moving out into the open), what I meant to say was that taking Bjorn just because he's got a BS6 plasma cannon is not worth it.

Well of course- just like it would be silly to take a Land Raider just because it has a pair of TLLC- its not a bad reason, but if your ever adding anything to your list for a single reason you should probly rethink its inclusion- therell always be something better.

[Sigmund Hammerhand]

You seem a very pessimistic person.

 

Not generally, only in 40k... I've learned to plan for things not going my way when dice are involved. So I compensate wherever I can and it seems to work.

 

He cant be in a unit of assault marines- hes not an independant character. No wound allocation games for him- hell get a cover save, if hes obscured, and possibly FNP- wich is why hitting him with AP 2 and so ignoring armor and FNP is so important.

 

Ok. I've never actually played against blood angels. None of my friends play them, and somehow I got lucky in the past couple of tournaments so I never faced them. I guess they can teach me a thing or two about effectively deepstriking...

 

Im curious- as I play a heavily drop podding army- how do they tend to deal with those in your area? In mine theyve yet to find reliable counters I cant counter-counter... except those darn IG executioners, curse their black hearts.

 

It's hard to say because I've only seen drop pod lists in tourneys end up way down the bottom ranking. They seem to have an awful lot of trouble against armies that are fully mechanized becayse they capitalize so much on that turn of shooting when they arrive, so if everything is mechanized they'll have a tough time dealing with the transports. Meltas just don't always end up in range (and knowing what's coming, I pop smoke on everything, naturally). And then the turn after they're just sitting there with no protection. Add to that that you'll start turn one with only half your army on the board, they seem to always fight an uphill battle unless things arrive when and where they're needed.

 

The other trick some people use is after seeing the list (we play very much with open lists here - everyone always offers theri opponent a copy before the game), they'll elect to go second (of course they can only do that half the time, but half the time is enough) and then not deploy anything on the field. Mostly they're eldar with 2 autarchs so they know that all their wave serpents, falcons and jetbikes will show up in turn 2 after you've committed most of your army, and then use superior movement to take you apart piecemeal.

 

So... using drop pods, wich reduce scatter tell you dont misshap, I find its actually easier to get precision landings close to enemy units- I have to end up 1" away from the enemy, and then I can deploy 2" out from the pods base.... get my specials a clear line of sight, and as many bolters as i feel needed, if its an ordnance heavy table Ill deploy to grant myself a cover save against all LOS I can manage..... its pretty darn reliable. I end up with a misshap maybe every two dozen games? From scattering off the table edge like a dumby.

 

mihaps for scattering off the board are the least of my concerns. Mostly what bothers me is getting out of the pod and staring down the barrels of a million billion guns ponited at me by people with nervous treigger fingers. Needless to say that I've never managed to make drop pod armies work...

And like I said, the biggest flaw seems to be their lack of mobility. If you're mobile yourself, and scatter all the objectives as far as possible from each other, a drop podding army needs to be spread very thin and with no mobility there's little support available, so they can be picked off at will. I'd like to play my eldar against a well-played drop pod army (although I'll probably be polishing armour and not getting any booze for the next decade for mentioning filthy xenos in these hallowed halls :P )...