Sword or Hellebarde?

[Hinti]

Hi Folks!!

 

Since it is only one week left..........I'm wondering about the Wargear for my GK's (Termies in special).

Everyone knows about the benefits Sword and Hellebard give. BUT how to equip Squads with them??

Give the whole Squad Sword/Hellebards ore mix them up?

 

+St is allways good......but that awesome Ini-Boost is also good.

 

How do you "fix" that Problem.......I prefer to NOT mix them up.....

 

Hinti

[Ashe Darke]

+1S comes from Hammer Hand which you can use with either weapon. The sword only adds +1 to any invulnerable save you might have and only in combat not +1S.

 

Personally I think Halberds are best.

[JamesI]

To me the best seems to be halberds, with 1 Hammer thrown in. Maybe 1-2 swords in a large squad.

[Hinti]

+1S comes from Hammer Hand which you can use with either weapon. The sword only adds +1 to any invulnerable save you might have and only in combat not +1S.

Ah yes my fault......

then it's all fine...

[Astorath the Grim]

However adding the swords to a Termie squad could make the squad hard as nails to get rid of....increasing the invulnerable save from 4++ to 3++ effectively gives them a stormshield for no extra points....not a bad idea in my opinion

[hmk17]

However adding the swords to a Termie squad could make the squad hard as nails to get rid of....increasing the invulnerable save from 4++ to 3++ effectively gives them a stormshield for no extra points....not a bad idea in my opinion

 

TDA has a 5++, sword makes it 4++

 

Only models with an Iron Halo are going to have that 3++ in CC.

[yowsaman]

However adding the swords to a Termie squad could make the squad hard as nails to get rid of....increasing the invulnerable save from 4++ to 3++ effectively gives them a stormshield for no extra points....not a bad idea in my opinion

 

TDA has a 5++, sword makes it 4++

 

Only models with an Iron Halo are going to have that 3++ in CC.

 

that's wy i find it worthwile giving the sword to my HQ models and letting the rest have halberds in the squad.

 

depending on the wounds the opponent causes (instant death not in that case) he can soake some maybe. let the other ones attack first

[Joasht]

For Paladins its just a matter of mixing around the wargear for wound allocation purposes so both the sword and halberd has its place. For normal Terminators I guess it depends what exactly you want to accomplish with them. For example, if you are using them as an assault unit then Halberds are awesome, simply because against MEQs you'd be able to reduce their numbers, and since there aren't too many power weapon-totting units out there with I6 and above, remember that each power weapon-totting figure you kill is one less power weapon attack (or sometimes 2++ attacks less) to your face. On the other hand if you are going to use them as some sort of anvil/shooty squad (e.g. ten of them, two Psycannons, psybolts, just sitting there to tie up a ton of firepower) then maybe the swords are good, since such units tend to get shot in the face a lot by things like melta.

[yowsaman]

For Paladins its just a matter of mixing around the wargear for wound allocation purposes so both the sword and halberd has its place. For normal Terminators I guess it depends what exactly you want to accomplish with them. For example, if you are using them as an assault unit then Halberds are awesome, simply because against MEQs you'd be able to reduce their numbers, and since there aren't too many power weapon-totting units out there with I6 and above, remember that each power weapon-totting figure you kill is one less power weapon attack (or sometimes 2++ attacks less) to your face. On the other hand if you are going to use them as some sort of anvil/shooty squad (e.g. ten of them, two Psycannons, psybolts, just sitting there to tie up a ton of firepower) then maybe the swords are good, since such units tend to get shot in the face a lot by things like melta.

 

aint the extra ++1 from the sword only in CC?

 

if so i wont let my termies just stand around and geth shot at to much :)

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Halberds hands down. You may get less attacks, but if your killing most things off the bat before they can even hit you, I'm sure you won't need the 4+ save. I would probably give swords to any chars or special weapons perhaps, but not regular guys. I6 for the win, with +1 str, will just destroy multi wound mobs.

 

The downside I can see would be dealing with 1 wound mobs, since the extra attack is lost, but thats why you bring in them templates

[HERO]

What? You don't get +1 CCW from having a Sword.

 

How do you guys not know this yet? :)

[Hinti]

I see that Point.......well then it's all clear......

This "Idea" with Sword for spec. Chars./Weapons ist VERY good......even if the +1 Inv is only in CC....

Got to Remind that......

[Chairman_woo]

I think a warding stave and a couple of swords is handy for GKT to soak PW wounds in CC, otherwize halberds are pretty hard to pass up. Grandmasters however seems like they are always best of with a sword for the 3++ in CC.

[Brother Xeones]

Swords granting the 4++ can still be handy, but also keep in mind that Striking at I6 is it's own form of defense too. If you can kill off a good chunk of the enemy before they can swing, you'll have fewer attacks to worry about. Granted, against units with I3 or lower, Halberds are wasted.

 

When choosing what load-out to take, you need to decide what sort of a role your terminators will play. Against MEQ units, I'd say, generally, Halberds would be better --especially if you've got a larger squad of termies because you've got enough attacks to annihilate a the enemy before they've got a chance to do anything about it.

 

OK Mathhammer time:

 

• 5 terminators all with Halberds charge a tactical squad with a powerfist. Assuming Hammerhand is successful, Halberds statistically kill 5 marines before any return hits are taken. If one of those hits kills the sarge, you're golden and you only lose 0.2 terminators. If the PF sarge remains, you'll lose 0.72 terminators

• Now, 5 terminators with Swords charge the same tactical squad. Again with Hammerhand, Swords kill 5 marines, but since both marines and terminators strike simultaneously, your terminators have more saves to make. If you manage to kill the sarge before he swings, you'll lose. 0.38 terminators. If the sarge lives, you'll lose 0.79 terminators.

 

In the above comparison, Halberds win out, but by quite a small margin.

 

Now if you were going up against TH/SS terminators, you're in for some hurting either way, but the Halberds do you no good at all (since you're already swinging first) and the 1+ Invulnerable becomes more necessary. Don't go up against TH/SS terminators though. They are likely to be cheaper and certainly tougher than GK termies so the match-up is a poor one. A full squad of Purifiers with falchions could take them all out in 1 round of combat (even if falchions only grant 1+), but that's another story...

 

Personally, I'd go with either all 4 Halberds and a Hammer in a five-man squad, or in larger squads of up to 10 men, I might mix in a few of the swords or a staff to soak powerweapon wounds.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

For termies, since picking between NFW, HALBERD (took me awhile to realize I was spelling it wrong, I still don't like how it looks now), and hammer is free, I figure almost all Halberds, with maybe one hammer thrown in. That way they work well against other marines, and other nasty fast stuff.

[Joasht]

aint the extra ++1 from the sword only in CC?

 

if so i wont let my termies just stand around and geth shot at to much :P

*Facepalm*

Yes you are right, my mistake. Just goes to show I've actually sold myself to Halberds except for things like wound allocation :X

[ValourousHeart]

I still really like the falchions... Planning on arming some of my TDA with the nf sword in one hand and a falchion in the other... Samurai stle. Sure it will just count as a pair of falchions, but it will look cool.

 

But i am also leading the camp that says falchions are 2ccw w/ a special rule for a +2A bonus.

It works just like a pair of lightning claws, weapon bonus + bonus attack for 2ccw.

Hoards won't be a problem with everyone of your TDA getting 5A on the charge.

[Whitefireinferno]

Can you ever only take one falchion?

[Zagman]

Halberds are great, except their cost fro GKSS and varients. Its a steep price, in upwards of 50pts per squad. A mixed squad is fine for multirole squads, swords for a primarily shooting unit.

 

For termies, it is a viable option, nothing wrong with halberds and a hammer, though I feel that having a couple of swords can help defend against PW wounds.

 

For paladins, you should NEVER have a duplicate model type in a squad, not even in a ten man unit. The benefit of halberds for Paladins is less than the benefit for standard terminators. Since each Paladin has multiple wounds and can allocate wounds to seperate models, it is quite feasible to take 5 wounds and still fight at full combat effectiveness for a 5 man squad. Swords granting the 4++ in CC is huge and extremely important for protecting against that lone powerfist wound without resorting to the warding stave. Try and take in a 5 man squad with two psycannons\ and maximum unit diversity.

[ValourousHeart]

Can you ever only take one falchion?

 

You should re-read the wargear section and every unit entry where Falchions are an option.

Every single one of them says "pair of Nemesis falchions."

A pair isn't 1 falchion... it is 2 falchions.

 

This is no different than a model armed with a PAIR of lightning claws... they get a bonus attack because the BRB says they do because they are armed with 2 single handed weapons... but they also get what ever the bonus is that the weapon itself gives.

In the case of the Lightning Claw it is re-roll wounds.

In the case of the pair of falchions it is +1A.

 

Since the Codex does not define the falchions as being a 2 handed weapon... we have to rely on WYSIWYG, and the models are armed with 2 one handed swords... which is 2 single handed weapons.

 

Where people are getting confused is because this weapon's special rule is also a bonus attack, and in that confusion they think I am trying to gain a bonus attack from both falchions... which is not the case.

The first bonus attack is from the weapon's special rule... a pair of falchions grants +1A.

The second bonus attack is from the fact that the model is armed with 2 single handed weapons, which according to the BRB grants +1A.

Both of those rules together result in a +2A bonus for models armed with a pair of Nemesis Falchions.

 

You still have to apply the BRB rules, you can't just skip over them.

[yowsaman]

Can you ever only take one falchion?

 

You should re-read the wargear section and every unit entry where Falchions are an option.

Every single one of them says "pair of Nemesis falchions."

A pair isn't 1 falchion... it is 2 falchions.

 

This is no different than a model armed with a PAIR of lightning claws... they get a bonus attack because the BRB says they do because they are armed with 2 single handed weapons... but they also get what ever the bonus is that the weapon itself gives.

In the case of the Lightning Claw it is re-roll wounds.

In the case of the pair of falchions it is +1A.

 

Since the Codex does not define the falchions as being a 2 handed weapon... we have to rely on WYSIWYG, and the models are armed with 2 one handed swords... which is 2 single handed weapons.

 

Where people are getting confused is because this weapon's special rule is also a bonus attack, and in that confusion they think I am trying to gain a bonus attack from both falchions... which is not the case.

The first bonus attack is from the weapon's special rule... a pair of falchions grants +1A.

The second bonus attack is from the fact that the model is armed with 2 single handed weapons, which according to the BRB grants +1A.

Both of those rules together result in a +2A bonus for models armed with a pair of Nemesis Falchions.

 

You still have to apply the BRB rules, you can't just skip over them.

 

i agree! it was the same as i was thinking.

[SamaNagol]

Just because the name is plural, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons. Just because it looks like 2 weapons, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons.

 

Falchions will only ever give you +1 A for equipping them.

[ChaosPhoenix]

Just because the name is plural, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons. Just because it looks like 2 weapons, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons.

 

Falchions will only ever give you +1 A for equipping them.

 

I agree and I think Falchions are pretty bad option.

[Validar]

Just because the name is plural, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons. Just because it looks like 2 weapons, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons.

 

Falchions will only ever give you +1 A for equipping them.

 

Following that logic "a pair of lightning claws" does NOT refer to TWO lightning claws, but a single lightning claw "rulewise" - since: The name is plural, but not does not mean it is 2 weapons.

 

That means those assault terminators that weild "Lightning Claws" (entry, pp 136 C:SM) do not get an extra attack from weilding 2 weapons, nor should Shrike get an extra attack from his Raven's Talons, which are "a pair of master-crafted lightning claws" (pp 92, C: SM).

 

Wait a minute, that can't be right! A pair of xxxxxx-weapon clearly refers to TWO of the mentioned weapon, IE the two you need to get the +1A. As soon as you read "a pair of..." you go 'yay, extra attack' and then look at the special rules for falchions and go 'yay, extra attack' - that makes up for 2 extra attacks :ph34r:

[Joasht]

Just because the name is plural, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons. Just because it looks like 2 weapons, does not mean ruleswise it is 2 weapons.

 

Falchions will only ever give you +1 A for equipping them.

 

Following that logic "a pair of lightning claws" does NOT refer to TWO lightning claws, but a single lightning claw "rulewise" - since: The name is plural, but not does not mean it is 2 weapons.

 

That means those assault terminators that weild "Lightning Claws" (entry, pp 136 C:SM) do not get an extra attack from weilding 2 weapons, nor should Shrike get an extra attack from his Raven's Talons, which are "a pair of master-crafted lightning claws" (pp 92, C: SM).

 

Wait a minute, that can't be right! A pair of xxxxxx-weapon clearly refers to TWO of the mentioned weapon, IE the two you need to get the +1A. As soon as you read "a pair of..." you go 'yay, extra attack' and then look at the special rules for falchions and go 'yay, extra attack' - that makes up for 2 extra attacks :lol:

 

No, I believe you are wrong.

This was somewhat mentioned earlier, but:

 

In the rulebook, it says "A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound". Notice; "A lighting claw". Singular.

 

On the other hand in the GK codex the entry is called Nemesis Falchions (notice, plural), and its rule states "The wielder of A PAIR of Nemesis Falchions has +1A". It means that the +1A is already taking into account the pair.

 

There is no way you are going to lawyer this rule to squeeze a +2A, because unless GW releases an errata to the rules, almost no opponent who has read the rules word-for-word would agree to your opinion.