Sword or Hellebarde?

[Inquisitor Fox]

Alright, lets be sure we don't rehash the same subject matter over and over ad naseum... there's been no problems yet and with as much good discussion as we have I'd like to keep it that way ;)

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion I'm paying for a halberd on everyone save the justicar, who gets a daemonhammer, then my two special weapons. This puts the majority before most anything in the game (with the exception of some eldar or something else freaky), gives me my psycannons of awesomesauce, and then some anti-walker protection by the multiple attacks of the justicar.

 

I'm of the opinion I'd rather have that guarenteed init of strike first than additional attacks, but that's just me :) I've lost too many combats against genestealers who only out init me by one to not want that chance of striking first and reducing their numbers by about half *grins*

[Zagman]

Alright, lets be sure we don't rehash the same subject matter over and over ad naseum... there's been no problems yet and with as much good discussion as we have I'd like to keep it that way ;)

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion I'm paying for a halberd on everyone save the justicar, who gets a daemonhammer, then my two special weapons. This puts the majority before most anything in the game (with the exception of some eldar or something else freaky), gives me my psycannons of awesomesauce, and then some anti-walker protection by the multiple attacks of the justicar.

 

I'm of the opinion I'd rather have that guarenteed init of strike first than additional attacks, but that's just me :) I've lost too many combats against genestealers who only out init me by one to not want that chance of striking first and reducing their numbers by about half *grins*

 

The problem is that paying for the halberd is a 25% increase is cost per model. GKSS/GKIS do not have the attacks to warrent this and are short range ranged units. Give them swords, two psycannons, psybolt ammunition, and maybe a MC Daemonhammer.

 

Now purifiers are another story entirely, this is only an 8.3% increase in cost coupled with an extra attack drastically increasing their benefit from halberds. Run with any number of psycannons(depending on role), an MC daemon hammer on the justicar, and halberds on the rest.

 

Terminators should be run with a mix of weaponry as the 4+ invuln save is very helpful. 4 swords, 5 halberds, and a MC Daemonhammer with two Psycannons for example.

 

Paladins should be run to maximize wound allocation and do not require halberds outside of achieving this goal as their multiple wounds and wound allocation are enough increase their survivability. Ie a 5 man squad, with psycannon and daemon hammer, psycannon and falshions, sword, halberd, falshions, would be a solid set up. Falshions are advantageous over halberds as the additional attack is more important than a first strike against most opponents. Nothing that really hurts paladins S8+ is striking before them or cannot be harmed by S5 I6, ie powerfists, thunderhammers, DCCWs.

 

For ICs, the sword is generally the most solid choice as possessing a 3++ in CC drastically increases survival. The weapons that scare a GM, BC, or Librarian are S8+ and striking at I7 S5 is not going to help, but a 3++ will increase your survivability against those high strenght low iniative attacks. You stand and an equal chance swinging at I5 S5 against I1 attacks as you do at I7 S5 off killing the model off before it can swing, but increase your odds of survival by 33%.

 

These are lean efficient squad setups.

[AoC]

The problem is that paying for the halberd is a 25% increase is cost per model. GKSS/GKIS do not have the attacks to warrent this and are short range ranged units. Give them swords, two psycannons, psybolt ammunition, and maybe a MC Daemonhammer.

 

Now purifiers are another story entirely, this is only an 8.3% increase in cost coupled with an extra attack drastically increasing their benefit from halberds. Run with any number of psycannons(depending on role), an MC daemon hammer on the justicar, and halberds on the rest.

 

Terminators should be run with a mix of weaponry as the 4+ invuln save is very helpful. 4 swords, 5 halberds, and a MC Daemonhammer with two Psycannons for example.

 

Paladins should be run to maximize wound allocation and do not require halberds outside of achieving this goal as their multiple wounds and wound allocation are enough increase their survivability. Ie a 5 man squad, with psycannon and daemon hammer, psycannon and falshions, sword, halberd, falshions, would be a solid set up. Falshions are advantageous over halberds as the additional attack is more important than a first strike against most opponents. Nothing that really hurts paladins S8+ is striking before them or cannot be harmed by S5 I6, ie powerfists, thunderhammers, DCCWs.

 

For ICs, the sword is generally the most solid choice as possessing a 3++ in CC drastically increases survival. The weapons that scare a GM, BC, or Librarian are S8+ and striking at I7 S5 is not going to help, but a 3++ will increase your survivability against those high strenght low iniative attacks. You stand and an equal chance swinging at I5 S5 against I1 attacks as you do at I7 S5 off killing the model off before it can swing, but increase your odds of survival by 33%.

 

These are lean efficient squad setups.

 

I would only run 1-2 sword Terminators/Paladins in the squad. Most power fist type of weapon are run in low quantities and they generally don't inflict more than 2 wounds, so keeping just 2 sword terminators/paladins seems optimal.

 

On other points, i agree.

[Zagman]

The problem is that paying for the halberd is a 25% increase is cost per model. GKSS/GKIS do not have the attacks to warrent this and are short range ranged units. Give them swords, two psycannons, psybolt ammunition, and maybe a MC Daemonhammer.

 

Now purifiers are another story entirely, this is only an 8.3% increase in cost coupled with an extra attack drastically increasing their benefit from halberds. Run with any number of psycannons(depending on role), an MC daemon hammer on the justicar, and halberds on the rest.

 

Terminators should be run with a mix of weaponry as the 4+ invuln save is very helpful. 4 swords, 5 halberds, and a MC Daemonhammer with two Psycannons for example.

 

Paladins should be run to maximize wound allocation and do not require halberds outside of achieving this goal as their multiple wounds and wound allocation are enough increase their survivability. Ie a 5 man squad, with psycannon and daemon hammer, psycannon and falshions, sword, halberd, falshions, would be a solid set up. Falshions are advantageous over halberds as the additional attack is more important than a first strike against most opponents. Nothing that really hurts paladins S8+ is striking before them or cannot be harmed by S5 I6, ie powerfists, thunderhammers, DCCWs.

 

For ICs, the sword is generally the most solid choice as possessing a 3++ in CC drastically increases survival. The weapons that scare a GM, BC, or Librarian are S8+ and striking at I7 S5 is not going to help, but a 3++ will increase your survivability against those high strenght low iniative attacks. You stand and an equal chance swinging at I5 S5 against I1 attacks as you do at I7 S5 off killing the model off before it can swing, but increase your odds of survival by 33%.

 

These are lean efficient squad setups.

 

I would only run 1-2 sword Terminators/Paladins in the squad. Most power fist type of weapon are run in low quantities and they generally don't inflict more than 2 wounds, so keeping just 2 sword terminators/paladins seems optimal.

 

On other points, i agree.

 

Only reason that I state a mix for the terminators is that they are extremely vulnerable to power weapon attacks more so than fist attacks. Again, the added invulnerable save is better than striking first, as you are very unlikely to kill a PW sergent first in most cases. There are exceptions, such as incubi, bloodletters, and any other unit consisting of many power weapons. I still think that halberds are very beneficial to terminators and much less so to paladins.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The problem is that paying for the halberd is a 25% increase is cost per model. GKSS/GKIS do not have the attacks to warrent this and are short range ranged units. Give them swords, two psycannons, psybolt ammunition, and maybe a MC Daemonhammer.

 

Now purifiers are another story entirely, this is only an 8.3% increase in cost coupled with an extra attack drastically increasing their benefit from halberds. Run with any number of psycannons(depending on role), an MC daemon hammer on the justicar, and halberds on the rest.

 

Terminators should be run with a mix of weaponry as the 4+ invuln save is very helpful. 4 swords, 5 halberds, and a MC Daemonhammer with two Psycannons for example.

I don't view it as a % cost increase per model...

 

For the same price I was paying, my models trade a bonus to str to init, have all their weapons upgraded to power weapons, have a psychic power to get a +1 to str, and give up 1 attack after the first round.

 

Mathhammer wise, they end up doing more damage than they used to, at a higher init.

 

I fail to see the problem here :)

[Zagman]

I don't view it as a % cost increase per model...

 

For the same price I was paying, my models trade a bonus to str to init, have all their weapons upgraded to power weapons, have a psychic power to get a +1 to str, and give up 1 attack after the first round.

 

Mathhammer wise, they end up doing more damage than they used to, at a higher init.

 

I fail to see the problem here :o

 

I disagree. They are only a single attack. The cost to benefit ratio for halberds on GKSS and GKIS just isn't their. Their role is not as a front line combat unit, but as a short ranged ranged attack unit. Upgrading them to halberds makes them much more expensive, especially where their strengths are concerned. Against most enemies, striking first will be helpful, mainly against powerweapon units like incubi, and bloodletters, but against most others it won't make much of a difference. If you are running them as an assault unit, I think you are going about it wrong. Purifiers on the other hand are vastly more power in CC with their two attacks and extremely inexpensive halberd upgrade.

 

GKSS and GKIS cannot do enough damage to warrant the halberd upgrade, especially across the board; they should do what they are good at, shoot things with psycannons and psybolt stormbolters.. Save the halberds for purifiers.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Except I'm not taking Purifiers.. I'm looking at how to keep my Troop choices survivable. We still think of the Daemon Hunters version of PAGK as semi-assault troops, and mathhammer wise even with a single attack, the new Strike Squad does more casualties against 10 MEQ than the older Daemon Hunters version. I'm not trying to make them assault troops, I'm keeping them versatile. They are a support unit, capable of doing whatever I need them to do relatively well.

 

It's just a different approach and viewpoint is all.

[Ashe Darke]

I disagree. They are only a single attack. The cost to benefit ratio for halberds on GKSS and GKIS just isn't their. Their role is not as a front line combat unit, but as a short ranged ranged attack unit. Upgrading them to halberds makes them much more expensive, especially where their strengths are concerned. Against most enemies, striking first will be helpful, mainly against powerweapon units like incubi, and bloodletters, but against most others it won't make much of a difference. If you are running them as an assault unit, I think you are going about it wrong. Purifiers on the other hand are vastly more power in CC with their two attacks and extremely inexpensive halberd upgrade.

 

GKSS and GKIS cannot do enough damage to warrant the halberd upgrade, especially across the board; they should do what they are good at, shoot things with psycannons and psybolt stormbolters.. Save the halberds for purifiers.

Maybe it's just what my opponents are like but I can totally see GKSS as being a combat unit. Yeah they don't have 2 attacks but Purifiers just seem like overkill from where I'm standing. And as for the cost being an issue I looked at my list and took out the Halberds and put in psybolt and 2 psycannons per squad and the cost was very similar, in fact I had to drop some other stuff. But then again the squads do have a stave each and 2 hammers(1 MC'd) as well.

 

On the plus side if it turns out I'm wrong my list can easily be changed intro Purifiers by dropping the GM and taking Crowe, no problems there :o

[Zagman]

I disagree. They are only a single attack. The cost to benefit ratio for halberds on GKSS and GKIS just isn't their. Their role is not as a front line combat unit, but as a short ranged ranged attack unit. Upgrading them to halberds makes them much more expensive, especially where their strengths are concerned. Against most enemies, striking first will be helpful, mainly against powerweapon units like incubi, and bloodletters, but against most others it won't make much of a difference. If you are running them as an assault unit, I think you are going about it wrong. Purifiers on the other hand are vastly more power in CC with their two attacks and extremely inexpensive halberd upgrade.

 

GKSS and GKIS cannot do enough damage to warrant the halberd upgrade, especially across the board; they should do what they are good at, shoot things with psycannons and psybolt stormbolters.. Save the halberds for purifiers.

Maybe it's just what my opponents are like but I can totally see GKSS as being a combat unit. Yeah they don't have 2 attacks but Purifiers just seem like overkill from where I'm standing. And as for the cost being an issue I looked at my list and took out the Halberds and put in psybolt and 2 psycannons per squad and the cost was very similar, in fact I had to drop some other stuff. But then again the squads do have a stave each and 2 hammers(1 MC'd) as well.

 

On the plus side if it turns out I'm wrong my list can easily be changed intro Purifiers by dropping the GM and taking Crowe, no problems there ;)

I find the psybolt and psycannons to be absolutely devastating, more so than a GKSS assault. Opponents and enemy builds do play a large part in what we take. Drop th stave, and only have a MC daemon hammer on the justicar, not worth it on any other model. You are putting way too many points into that unit to make it combat effective when there are other more specialized choices in the codex.

 

GKSS are a descent combat unit by default, no need to spend a huge amount of points on making them a great CC unit when they are a very good ranged unit to start.

[Zagman]

Except I'm not taking Purifiers.. I'm looking at how to keep my Troop choices survivable. We still think of the Daemon Hunters version of PAGK as semi-assault troops, and mathhammer wise even with a single attack, the new Strike Squad does more casualties against 10 MEQ than the older Daemon Hunters version. I'm not trying to make them assault troops, I'm keeping them versatile. They are a support unit, capable of doing whatever I need them to do relatively well.

 

It's just a different approach and viewpoint is all.

Yes, they are good at taking out MEQ by default with no real need to pay for halberds and will potentially wipe a 10 man unit if they can shoot assault. They are even better ant shooting, with psybolt ammunition and two psycannons they can kill roughly 4 MEQ at 24". Thats a fair bit of shooting. I'd rather shoot my enemy with psybolts and psycannons before assaulting them. Roughly the same cost, and very powerful. If you want versatile, forgo the halberds in favor of Psybolts and Psycannons.

 

Where the new GKSS fall apart is in taking out GEQs, far less effective than their 3E counterparts. The new GKSS only out kill their old selves vs MEQ when they charge, their old incarnation is more killy when charged. Going shooty vs assault with upgrades keeps GKSS more versatlile and increases their overall effectiveness without bloating their cost too much.

[DevianID]

I agree with Zagman. I think GKSS's best role is carrying the psybolt ammo. CC upgrades, while not terrible, are much better on any of the other GK units. The only advantages the GKSS have over purfiers is defalt scoring and slightly lower cost... giving the GKSS a selection of special cc weapons can actually make them more expensive than a purfier squad. Likewise, if the Purfiers are in CC then they are not using psybolt ammo.

 

If you want the GKSS to be better in CC, simply use a libby. Give them +1 str and 2d6 armor pen, init 10, and +1 str from hammerhand. Max your squad size for the strike squad instead of buying cc upgrades, and let your init 10 s6 21 attacks do your work for you for a cool 200 points base, with the libby attached to some termies/palies. Now you have no need for halberds, and much less of a need for hammers.

[Joasht]

Frankly, I'm tempted to not even bother with GKSS's outside of their Warp Quake utility and for those cases where I'm not running Crowe or Coteaz. While I admit that 20 points is very cheap for what you are getting, problem is you are forced to pay all this for something that shoots and assaults well-ish; but not entirely all that well. What you end up with is a very jack-of-all-trades unit that doesn't do anything too properly. If at all anything, they should be played in the same way they were in 3rd ed; a unit thats there mainly to just shoot; close combat for them is optional. Granted they are now better in melee, but I see no reason to pay so many points to make a mediocre close combat unit a semi-effective close combat unit. For a marginal increase in points you can get something that does assault bloody well (Purifiers in assault; I6, 2A each base, with optional Cleansing Flame against hordes, awesome).

[SamaNagol]

If you want devastating assault, GKSS are not the ones.

 

I would include maybe 2 or 3 Halberds to thin down numbers if they do end up getting assaulted, but the GKSS are a mid range fire support unit. Lump of 10 of them with 2 Psycannon and Psybolts is what you will be using them for in a Rhino. Jump out and dakka units only getting into combat when you have to.

[biglou666]

strike squads are rubbish, considering the option to take termies as troops, and all of the more cost effective replacements for them, here is an example.

 

its simple, have grand master, to make 1-2 purifier squads scoring, then, give the purifiers maximum psycannons (4), and max halberds (6, or mabye include a hammer in there somewhere.) then, split both squads of purifiers up into two, one half consisting totally of guns, the other half all of the halberd marines. that way, you have lots of potential to capture objective, lots of ranged firepower, and good close combat capabilities aswell, but you have more guns for a similar cost than if you took strike squads.

 

halberds hands down. <3

[Ashe Darke]

I find the psybolt and psycannons to be absolutely devastating, more so than a GKSS assault. Opponents and enemy builds do play a large part in what we take. Drop th stave, and only have a MC daemon hammer on the justicar, not worth it on any other model. You are putting way too many points into that unit to make it combat effective when there are other more specialized choices in the codex.

 

GKSS are a descent combat unit by default, no need to spend a huge amount of points on making them a great CC unit when they are a very good ranged unit to start.

Well whenever I wanna see how good a squad is I run it though my MEQ test and the first few times I rolled out psybolt and 2 psycannons I was very underwhelmed, sometimes only 2 marines would drop. Now I've been rolling again recently and it's gotten much better results (I think it's the new dice I bought for the army ^_^ ) so I'm a bit 'hmmm' about it all now. But in combat they have always mushed the marines. The stave has been handy against more than just power weapon attacks though and after testing I quite like it. And when your Justicar dies to perils a 2nd hammer is pretty handy. If it was 25pts per hammer, sure I wouldn't run 2 but for the price of a marine one I can get 2 one of which is master-crafted??

 

So what about other units? What about big hordes? No one plays them where I am and anything less than a marine doesn't need S5 storm bolters and 2 psycannons to kill and the other units in my army provide a good solid fire support.

 

As for taking Purifiers, well then I have to take Crowe, well I don't particularly want to take Crowe. He doesn't offer as much flexibility as the GM and all for my 2 main units being made arguably too good in combat, yes a clear win is nice it's not necessary. The other option is Terminators and I've never liked the idea of taking them. Too easy to kill and too hard to transport around reliably and cheaply. Don't get me wrong I do like what these guys are capable of but I like speed and reliability. And you can't have both with them without paying through the teeth for a transport.

[Adir]

It's just a different approach and viewpoint is all.

Pretty much this. Nicole wants to run Strike Squads and not Purifiers... the beauty part of the new book is that this is perfectly feasible.

 

GKSS are awesome all-rounders. The ability to take cheap psycannons and still pack a punch in assault makes them stand head and shoulders above the 4 point cheaper marine brothers.

 

Many lists (including a few of mine) focus on g/strat as a way to make GKP scoring. Consider though that taking GKSS gives you the flexibility to consider Scouting or Counter-attack as alternate abilities. Scouting GKSS in a rhino places those units in mid-field on turn 1... which is exactly where you need them. On the other hand, Counter-attack means you can walk troops down field with less fear of taking a Fleeted charge (especially if you have a good mix of halberds thrown in).

 

The notion that GKSS are rubbish is laughable - at least to me. I see them as one of the most truly effective troop choices in the game right now. Consider a unit that can take a special weapon that is either heavy or assault and more effective than a lascannon, a unit that can deep strike when needed, can deflect deep striking units, can take multiple types of CC weapons (including a bargain priced thunder hammer), can pump out S5 shoots at 30" range, and can score for objectives - this is an amazing set of abilities for just a few points more than our index astartes brothers.

 

Don't get me wrong.... Purifiers are awesome. They will definitely be a cheap death star unit for many lists. But don't get blinded by all the shiny in the other units - GKSS will form the backbone for many successful lists.

[SoulReaver296]

Well said Adir. It's really a matter of preference, play style, and local meta-game. This codex may be one of the most diverse ones yet in terms of army construction ("grey"wing, purifier leet list, base SS, henchmen spam, "Grey"zilla to an extent), and play-style (DS, Mech, Foot-slog/jump, demi-gunline, melee). Personally, I can see myself running up to 4 lists with this codex (basic GK with GM, a purifier list, a pala/termie list, and a henchman non spam list), not necessarily competitively, but definitely for fun.

[Chairman_woo]

Frankly, I'm tempted to not even bother with GKSS's outside of their Warp Quake utility and for those cases where I'm not running Crowe or Coteaz. While I admit that 20 points is very cheap for what you are getting, problem is you are forced to pay all this for something that shoots and assaults well-ish; but not entirely all that well. What you end up with is a very jack-of-all-trades unit that doesn't do anything too properly. If at all anything, they should be played in the same way they were in 3rd ed; a unit thats there mainly to just shoot; close combat for them is optional. Granted they are now better in melee, but I see no reason to pay so many points to make a mediocre close combat unit a semi-effective close combat unit. For a marginal increase in points you can get something that does assault bloody well (Purifiers in assault; I6, 2A each base, with optional Cleansing Flame against hordes, awesome).

 

 

I agree up to a point but if you take enough GKSS squads (and not too many of the more expensive more spcialised units) they will begin to come good again in the same way as spamming tacticals can (assuming were not talking WAAC which I certainly am not). GKSS are indeed jacks of all trades and masters of none but, (as so often happens) the last part of that saying is forgotten... "Often greater than a master of one!", i.e. GKSS are still better in CC and shooting than some armies specialists, and certainy not a pushover for all but the serious ballbusters. If you are the sort of player who likes to have a few general purpose units that can pitch in with shooting or CC as needed GKSS seem a pretty solid choice. Purifiers I will concede can be better for this if spammed in large numbers but that feels rather like specialising somewhat in CC ability to me, and they kindof need a rhino in a way GKSS might not due to having DS. Plus you have the crowe tax and if you are minded that way some fluff issues (not everyone wants a purifier army so much as a general GK army).

 

As such I think it is often going to be prudent to take a simmilarily "jack of all" approach to equiping them, e.g. maybe only 2 to 3 halberds in a full strength squad to make that small difference along with the almost mandatory Hammer. The Halberds arnt there to make them devastating or incredibly hard to assault like when you give them to purifiers, it simply tips most assaults slightly more in their direction, giving them another little edge for relatively little investment (10pts on a 300ish squad dosent feel like much of a sting).

 

GKSS might not be the best but they are a match for most units and kick basic vannila marine troops into the ground, and when supported (as basic troops dammned well should be!) they can contribute meaningfully to even the most vicious shooting and CC matches, and IMHO should be equiped accordingly. They are not specialists at shooting or CC, they simply do both very competently. As such one should probably never spend too many pts on upgrading their weapons, as has been pointed out purifiers work out much more efficient as a CC focused unit and will always make it very very hard to justify spending a fortune giving everyone halberds (unless you desparately need the deepstrike but then paladins seem better for that anyway). A couple of halberds and a hammer seems a pretty solid way to go however if you feel a little edge in CC will come in usefull, afterall its rare one gets to choose exactly where and when combats will happen.

 

GKSS Jacks of all, masters of none BUT often greater than masters of one!

[Inquisitor Fox]

It's just a different approach and viewpoint is all.

Pretty much this. Nicole wants to run Strike Squads and not Purifiers... the beauty part of the new book is that this is perfectly feasible.

 

GKSS are awesome all-rounders. The ability to take cheap psycannons and still pack a punch in assault makes them stand head and shoulders above the 4 point cheaper marine brothers.

 

Many lists (including a few of mine) focus on g/strat as a way to make GKP scoring. Consider though that taking GKSS gives you the flexibility to consider Scouting or Counter-attack as alternate abilities.

Thank you, Adir :)

 

I can also point out my other portion of the master plan...

 

By taking a GKSS, I am free to also take a troop squad of Termies, then take a Dreadnought or Ven. Dreadnought, a Dreadknight, and still have points for a Storm Raven, Land Raider, a Grand Master, give all the models halberds, psybolt ammo where appropriate, pack it full of psycannons and still be less than 1750. This lets me utilize grand strategy on the walkers giving me 4 or 5 scoring units and still have points left to play with things like an Inquisitor, Retinue, a completely seperate unit of whatever, or to play with outflanking or scouting and other options. It also lets me deep strike the Strike Squad, something Purifiers cannot do. Or put them in the Storm Raven, or put another unit in the Storm Raven... so many options :)

 

Purifiers are awesome, yes... but to replace all the GKSS with purifiers in a normal list can be limiting. Also Warp Quake is a pretty useful ability in and of itself, particularly since the Strike Squad is in your own backfield anyway as a second line.

 

However, replying to this is really now trying to change the discussion to Strike Squads versus Purifiers, which is a whole seperate argument ;)