Mordrak + Stormraven

[Gentlemanloser]

I stumbled across this awesome idea by Ioregnak in the army list sub forum.

 

Embarking Mordrak (and his Ghostly Bodyguard) in a Stromraven, and Deepstriking first turn!

 

I double checked the rules (from the leaked PDF test codex), and can't find a problem with it. Mordrak's 'First to the Fray' only states if he is deployed by Deep Strike, and well, a Stormraven *can* Deepstrike. It also works with any 'any unit he accompanies'. Not attached too (which I feel is worded this way as he's not an IC and can't be attached to another unit.

 

And he defeinelty 'accompanies' the Stormraven. ^_^

 

So you get a first turn, Deepstriking with no scatter, Stormraven (so 4+ save woot!), filled with Mordrak and his GhostKnights. And potentially a Dreadnought in the back as well!

 

Genious idea! Totally love it! :ph34r:

 

Edit: Mordrak remains my favorite GK SC. ;)

[muadib02]

Let me be the first one to say that this probably wont work.

 

As he accompanies his unit, he is transported in the Storm Raven.

 

Giant argument to ensue for sure.

[Ozybonza]

The problem is that the Stormraven is a seperate unit to Mordrack/Knights, so he doesn't really accompany it - he occupies it. Also, it's a bad plan.

[Gentlemanloser]

While there sure to be some dicussion over the legality of it, why would it be a bad plan?

 

Your SR is guaranteed to get the Move Fast save (and not be caught flat footed if you don't get/lose first turn), is placed exactly where oyu want it, and can still use PotMS to fire a weapon. All the while protecting up to two units from melta/plasma weapons.

 

Sems like a brilliant tactic to me. :P

 

Edit: And accompanies or not, even embarked upon the Storm Raven, Mordrak is still deployed by Deep Strike, as the Storm Raven deploys by Deep Strike.

[Whitefireinferno]

It would not work due to it is the storm raven deep striking not Mordrak he is just embarked in it so it needs to wait its turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

So units that deploy from Deep Striking vehicles aren't deploying by Deep Strike themselves?

[4RC71C FOXX]

Why would the Raven have a cover save? I thought you needed to move flat out to gain that?

 

FOXX

[Gentlemanloser]

Deep Striking makes you count as moving flat out doesn't it? Or is it just crusing? :/

[Valerian]

Deep Striking makes you count as moving flat out doesn't it? Or is it just crusing? :/

 

Just cruising.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Bah.

 

Can't remember Skimmer moves Fast save, is it only flat out you get it for?

[RedemptionNL]

Aye, it only get is when moving Flat Out. So when you use The Summoning it does get its save, but not on regular deep striking.

 

And yes, your Mordrak + Stormraven tactic doesn't work, as it is the Stormraven that is deepstriking then, not Mordrak. You couldn't suddenly deepstrike a Landraider if you put Mordrak in it either.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not the same. ;)

 

You can't DS Land Raiders, as they can't DS. The SR actually has DS as a rule though, and can DS with or without Mordrak.

 

I suppose it really depends on what 'accompanies' means. It's not 'Attached' or 'Embarked' as they are both definied terms. Does Mordrak 'embarked' in a Transport 'accompany' it? If so, there's nothing I can see to stop his 'First in the fray' from working.

[Chairman_woo]

What I'm struggleing to understand is why you think this would be a good idea even if it was legal (which it almost certainly isn't).

 

Mordrak and his unit can already deepstrike without scatter on turn 1, They cant assault out of the sormraven that turn as the ravens rules prohibit that the same turn as a DS move. Even if the raven got a coversave (which it wont) its still armour 12 and presumably more or less by itself in the midfield or enemy line, was it supposed to provide "cover" for Mordrak? Wouldent you be better just hiding Mordrak behind or in some cover with his DS and run move given he cant shoot out of the raven anyway? I guess keeping it in DS would avoid any attacks if the enemy got turn 1 but Mordrak would achive that by deploying by DS anyway.

 

It seems like the only thing this would possibly facilitate is deepstriking a stormraven on turn 1. Is that what you were going for? I guess it does mean the enemy cant take a pot shot turn 1 before you do anything, but it does mean wasting most of the usefullness of Mordrak and his units special ability (scatter free DS on turn 1 so you dont need (or want) a transport for them) and that raven is probbably going to die after it makes its initial shots, at cruising speed thats like 2 main (inc POTMS) and all defensive I belive, so not a total waste but it dosent seem like anything like enough to warrant such a ludicrous investment of pts.

 

But this is all academic anyway as the rules do not even begin to support this I'm afraid. Maybe if the raven was a dedicated transport you might have something to work with but even then I highly doubt one could make that rules interpretation work. Units do not accompany transports, they occupy them. Units do not deepstrike with transports, they deepstrike in them i.e. the vehicle DS's and the unit is cargo untill disembarked. There is very limited prescident for some dedicated transports to gain a rule (such as white scar rhinos outflanking), but none that confer deepstrike (that I am aware of) and certainly it does not say anywhere in Mordraks rules anything to the effect that it might affect a dedicated transport (as he cant take one anyway).

 

40k rules are "permissive", if it dosent say somewhere that you can do something... then you can't! Otherwize my claim that anything the cat knocks over during a battle counts as being destroyed (provided it dosent belong to my army :lol: ) wouldn't just get ignored like it usualy does.

[Valerian]

40k rules are "permissive", if it dosent say somewhere that you can do something... then you can't!

 

Your terminology is wrong. A permissive rule set is one that permits/allows you do something unless it is specifically restricted. A non-permissive ruleset, like 40k, only allows you to do what is specified.

 

Otherwise, you are on the money. A unit embarks a transport, it does not accompany it.

 

V

[Ioregnak]

According to the wording in the BRB, reserve units and transports they are in are rolled for together, not just the transport itself. That makes me believe this will work, but I'll wait for te FAQ rather then swear by it. As far as why I would want to do this rather then just DSing Mordrak and his Ghost Knights... The thought of bringing a twin-linked LC/MM(which can fire at different targets) and Hurricane Bolters with them along with a Assault Cannon/DCCW Dread(which has no other way to DS in the GK Codex).

[Chairman_woo]

40k rules are "permissive", if it dosent say somewhere that you can do something... then you can't!

 

Your terminology is wrong. A permissive rule set is one that permits/allows you do something unless it is specifically restricted. A non-permissive ruleset, like 40k, only allows you to do what is specified.

 

Otherwise, you are on the money. A unit embarks a transport, it does not accompany it.

 

V

 

See my understanding was that a permissive rule set is one based on permission, i.e. one must be permitted to perform an action. As opposed to a restrictive (proscriptive) rule system which is based on pointing out everything one cannot do and allowing anything not prohibited (e.g. alot of formula 1 rules). I know its a little counter intuitive like oxidation and reduction, or endo/exothermic reactions being the oposite of what they sound like at first glance.

 

I am entirely prepared to be proven wrong on this however, Its just the way I have always understood that to work, and the way I have seen it used in the past. Its just semantics tho so it dosent really matter if one clarifies ones terms when one uses them anyway :D (langauge fails again!).

[Gentlemanloser]

Mordrak and his unit can already deepstrike without scatter on turn 1, They cant assault out of the sormraven that turn as the ravens rules prohibit that the same turn as a DS move. Even if the raven got a coversave (which it wont) its still armour 12 and presumably more or less by itself in the midfield or enemy line, was it supposed to provide "cover" for Mordrak? Wouldent you be better just hiding Mordrak behind or in some cover with his DS and run move given he cant shoot out of the raven anyway? I guess keeping it in DS would avoid any attacks if the enemy got turn 1 but Mordrak would achive that by deploying by DS anyway.

 

Mordrak can't Assault on the turn he DS's anyway, so that a moot point. It won't just provide cover, but will take the Plasma Cannon hit, that Mordrak and his amazing 5++ save won't have to deal with. If you DS Mord into cover, you have to take Dangerous Terrain test. Mord has a Storm Bolter, and his unit can't urchase any Ranged Weapons. The SR can fire one of your choice of weaons due to PotMS.

 

There's no downside.

 

It seems like the only thing this would possibly facilitate is deepstriking a stormraven on turn 1. Is that what you were going for? I guess it does mean the enemy cant take a pot shot turn 1 before you do anything, but it does mean wasting most of the usefullness of Mordrak and his units special ability (scatter free DS on turn 1 so you dont need (or want) a transport for them) and that raven is probbably going to die after it makes its initial shots, at cruising speed thats like 2 main (inc POTMS) and all defensive I belive, so not a total waste but it dosent seem like anything like enough to warrant such a ludicrous investment of pts.

 

You also get to first turn DS with no scatter a Dread. A blessing as we can't have Drop Pods...

 

A unit embarks a transport, it does not accompany it

 

Doesn't it? What does 'Accomapny' mean? A SC is attached to a unit, they don't accompany them.

[Chairman_woo]

1)

Mordrak can't Assault on the turn he DS's anyway, so that a moot point. It won't just provide cover, but will take the Plasma Cannon hit, that Mordrak and his amazing 5++ save won't have to deal with. If you DS Mord into cover, you have to take Dangerous Terrain test. Mord has a Storm Bolter, and his unit can't urchase any Ranged Weapons. The SR can fire one of your choice of weaons due to PotMS.

 

There's no downside.

 

2)

You also get to first turn DS with no scatter a Dread. A blessing as we can't have Drop Pods...

 

3)

 

Doesn't it? What does 'Accomapny' mean? A SC is attached to a unit, they don't accompany them.

 

 

1) You have a no scatter Deep strike and a D6 run move, thats certainly enough to plop behind cover and often enough to run into some woods or something after your (no scatter) deep strike. Mord wouldent get to shoot anyway if he was in the raven so that too is a moot point. Not only can he easily get a 3+ coversave (stealth native on his unit!) he can even get out of LOS entirely which is better than any armour! and no 200+pt transport need be required.

 

There is no downside.....well appart from the downsides, but crikey they are alot smaller than having a 200+pt av12 transport sat near the enemy with no cover save!

 

2) If the rule worked yes you would, tho that is a 200+pt drop pod married to a 400+pt squad and a dread.

 

3) Ooooh semantics I love those :D Basically I more or less wrote my dissertation on why semantics, and language in general are usefull accuarate only insofar as their supporting paradigm, and all such supporting paradigms are both subjective in nature and almost always imperfect. Its not appropriate for me to go into that here save to say that I consider the entire concept of RAW subservient to its pairent paradigm of RAI. Without RAI you have no RAW as RAW is entirely dependant on your understanding of the context and intention of the words used as they are conceptualy incapable of carrying any meaning themselves. Words and sentences are mearly symbols on a page/screen or noises without a shared paradigm between writer/speaker and reader/listener and so when we consider the way the rules are written i.e. without an exhaustive and exacting glossary of all terms used in the rules (like you might get in the pages and pages of small print on legal documents), we are left with little more than our understanding of what the author is attempting to convey with his words (you may feel some terms are game/rule specific but again this is something you have infered from a shared paradigm that has not been exhaustively defined).

 

If you think the word accompanies can be construed to include a non dedicated transport Mordrak and his unit have embarked in, I cant say you are wrong. You are correct insofar as you can persuade an opponent to see things your way (or untill the author specificaly prohibits you by FAQ), but the reverse is also true. And subjectively I feel you will really really struggle to make that one fly with most people. But you are welcome to try, it is your divine right as a child of the universe to do so. Just dont be suprised when people take their ball home...

[Gentlemanloser]

/shrug

 

I feel a DS then run is really a waste of a turn. Just give another unit Scout and Outflank. The old idea was to DS Mord with 2 Incinerator Ghost Knights. You can still get close to this with attached characters.

 

DSing the SR allows you to get a Melta Shot exactly where you need it. Or Hurricane Bolter fire instead of the native SB fire form Mords unit. And another unit to pressure your opponent with, especially if you also have multiple other vehicles scouting close to them first turn. (Edit: and it still allows the second turn charge that Mord and co were aiming for anyway.)

 

As for taking toys home, where we play, we use RAW, as it's the only common ground you can use when playing with others. House rules aside, of course. And usually, we err on the side of fun with RAW. Is it fun to face a first turn DSing SR that takes 240+ points for the priveledge? Or is it an unfun game breaker, where we decide not to use it, ever, again.

 

I'm sure we'll make that call after seeing it used.

 

Or a FAQ comes out.

[Chairman_woo]

/shrug

 

I feel a DS then run is really a waste of a turn. Just give another unit Scout and Outflank. The old idea was to DS Mord with 2 Incinerator Ghost Knights. You can still get close to this with attached characters.

 

DSing the SR allows you to get a Melta Shot exactly where you need it. Or Hurricane Bolter fire instead of the native SB fire form Mords unit. And another unit to pressure your opponent with, especially if you also have multiple other vehicles scouting close to them first turn. (Edit: and it still allows the second turn charge that Mord and co were aiming for anyway.)

 

As for taking toys home, where we play, we use RAW, as it's the only common ground you can use when playing with others. House rules aside, of course. And usually, we err on the side of fun with RAW. Is it fun to face a first turn DSing SR that takes 240+ points for the priveledge? Or is it an unfun game breaker, where we decide not to use it, ever, again.

 

I'm sure we'll make that call after seeing it used.

 

Or a FAQ comes out.

 

 

So a DS then run is a waste of a turn but sitting in a raven for a turn doing nothing isent? I understand that you feel you are getting something you want from Mordraks rule i.e. the turn 1 DS raven & dread but you can't then accuse Mordrak DSing then running into cover sans-raven as wastefull also. Seems like an utterly moot point.

 

Also some how does the huricane bolter have anything to do with Mordraks unit shooting? Ravens dont have fire ports, he has to get out to shoot either way. (did i miss something?) Edit: I did miss something sorry, you were comparing methods of delivery. But I think my point still stands, Mordraks unit would not be shooting storm bolters either way.

 

And way to miss my point entirely on RAW ;) even if we take the existence of a common consensus reality "RAW" for granted (which is almost a conceptual absurdity) there is no RAW here, as we are dealing with an ambiguous term rules wize i.e. "accompanies". What you just described is a consensus of RAI as the words themselves have no exlusive interpretation either way. Your arguement for being able to do what you describe is exactly the same as the counter arguement; i.e. that "accompanies" means one of two contradictory things.

 

House rules are absolutely fine, infact its better than fine its awsome, it means you and your playgroup engage with the rules and use your brains! However that is not RAW, it is quite clearly RAI, or if you want to be long whinded "RAW as defined by common consensus of interpretation of the authors meaning".

 

 

As Witgenstein would say "Meaning is use"

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

It won't just provide cover, but will take the Plasma Cannon hit, that Mordrak and his amazing 5++ save won't have to deal with.

 

Mordrak has a 4++ save. Iron Halo.

 

If you DS Mord into cover, you have to take Dangerous Terrain test. Mord has a Storm Bolter, and his unit can't urchase any Ranged Weapons. The SR can fire one of your choice of weaons due to PotMS.

 

There's no downside.

 

Besides the fact that it cannot happen, the downside is you spend 205 points on a Mordrak and Ghost "delivery" device that is going to get blown up really, really quickly. 205 points is 20 points shy of a 5 man terminator squad with a Psycannon. Or a Vindicare Assassin and 60 points to spend elsewhere. Wouldn't it make more sense to use those points on something else to draw away some fire? Something that won't die instantly?

 

It's one thing to have a Stormraven or a Landraider with a plan to launch an assault, which in some cases can be very helpful, it's quite another to throw away 205 points just to protect a squad from a couple lascannon shots for a turn.

[Chairman_woo]

It won't just provide cover, but will take the Plasma Cannon hit, that Mordrak and his amazing 5++ save won't have to deal with.

 

Mordrak has a 4++ save. Iron Halo.

 

If you DS Mord into cover, you have to take Dangerous Terrain test. Mord has a Storm Bolter, and his unit can't urchase any Ranged Weapons. The SR can fire one of your choice of weaons due to PotMS.

 

There's no downside.

 

Besides the fact that it cannot happen, the downside is you spend 205 points on a Mordrak and Ghost "delivery" device that is going to get blown up really, really quickly. 205 points is 20 points shy of a 5 man terminator squad with a Psycannon. Or a Vindicare Assassin and 60 points to spend elsewhere. Wouldn't it make more sense to use those points on something else to draw away some fire? Something that won't die instantly?

 

It's one thing to have a Stormraven or a Landraider with a plan to launch an assault, which in some cases can be very helpful, it's quite another to throw away 205 points just to protect a squad from a couple lascannon shots for a turn.

 

 

I think his idea is based around getting use out of the raven itself, with mordraks unit as a 2nd turn "sting in the tail". Mostly he seems to be interested in getting the shots out of the raven and pooing out a dreadnaught. Understandible, but highly questionable.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I think his idea is based around getting use out of the raven itself, with mordraks unit as a 2nd turn "sting in the tail". Mostly he seems to be interested in getting the shots out of the raven and pooing out a dreadnaught. Understandible, but highly questionable.

 

Ok, well let's break this down. Mordrak and company can go wherever they want on their own, and DS into or run into cover or get completely out of LOS. So the benefit conferred to them by coming down in a Raven is almost nil. As for "getting use out of the raven", what use, one multi-melta shot? How much is that worth? Not enough to justify the cost. And a dreadnought on turn 2.... isn't so hot for the points either, especially considering all of the options available involving teleportation and/or scouting.

[Chairman_woo]

I think his idea is based around getting use out of the raven itself, with mordraks unit as a 2nd turn "sting in the tail". Mostly he seems to be interested in getting the shots out of the raven and pooing out a dreadnaught. Understandible, but highly questionable.

 

Ok, well let's break this down. Mordrak and company can go wherever they want on their own, and DS into or run into cover or get completely out of LOS. So the benefit conferred to them by coming down in a Raven is almost nil. As for "getting use out of the raven", what use, one multi-melta shot? How much is that worth? Not enough to justify the cost. And a dreadnought on turn 2.... isn't so hot for the points either, especially considering all of the options available involving teleportation and/or scouting.

 

 

Not wishing to sound rude but did you actually read the rest of the thread before you posted that?

 

To clarify its actually 2 Main weapons and the huricane bolters apparantly, as a DS vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed i.e. 1 main all defensive and then 1 POTMS. A raven can do that anyway naturally but not on turn 1 which is what this guy is gunning for (along with a dreadnaught that would not otherwise be there on turn 1 due to no drop pods).

I think its a crazy idea too as the last few posts should testify to, but the least I can do is try to understand his point, and if possible make the idea work (tho I dont think this one is a goer rules wize, if his playgroup is cool with it then I'm happy to talk theory with him).

 

So yes I agree with you but we should try to be clear about what is being said ;)

 

 

EDIT: Thinking on, can the dreadnaught get out of the raven the turn it deepstrikes? Not got my books to hand.....

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Not wishing to sound rude but did you actually read the rest of the thread before you posted that?

 

Well you do sound rude, but not here, further down. ;) I must admit I only skimmed the guy's points because I was of the opinion that it was a terrible idea the first I heard of it. So yeah, I missed the extra weapons part. My point still stands though, in that it isn't worth it (again assuming it is possible, which in all likelihood it isn't).

 

the least I can do is ... if possible make the idea work

 

Good luck trying to make the idea work. The least I can do is give my honest opinion of the situation which is 1) the chance of this being allowed is very very small and 2) it is a bad idea due to the benefit versus the cost. I mean really, whoopie doo, some weapons fired from the Stormraven. You can move flat out, get a sweet cover save and fire one weapon without any Mordrak shenanigans. If a Stormraven is bearing down on them and Mordrak has popped into the backgroundthis IMHO would be far more effective than deepstriking a raven which will almost certainly blow up just so it can get a few more shots off.