Mordrak + Stormraven

[Ioregnak]

EDIT: Thinking on, can the dreadnaught get out of the raven the turn it deepstrikes? Not got my books to hand.....

 

Yes, the Dreadnought can disembark and fire all weapons or run the turn the raven DSs.

[Chairman_woo]

Not wishing to sound rude but did you actually read the rest of the thread before you posted that?

 

Well you do sound rude, but not here, further down. :P I must admit I only skimmed the guy's points because I was of the opinion that it was a terrible idea the first I heard of it. So yeah, I missed the extra weapons part. My point still stands though, in that it isn't worth it (again assuming it is possible, which in all likelihood it isn't).

 

the least I can do is ... if possible make the idea work

 

Good luck trying to make the idea work. The least I can do is give my honest opinion of the situation which is 1) the chance of this being allowed is very very small and 2) it is a bad idea due to the benefit versus the cost. I mean really, whoopie doo, some weapons fired from the Stormraven. You can move flat out, get a sweet cover save and fire one weapon without any Mordrak shenanigans. If a Stormraven is bearing down on them and Mordrak has popped into the backgroundthis IMHO would be far more effective than deepstriking a raven which will almost certainly blow up just so it can get a few more shots off.

 

I completely agree and that is what I have been agueing for several posts now! ;) ;)

 

I was just saying that we shoudl atleast be clear and take the idea to its logical conclusion, which by and large I think we have. Please dont get me wrong I dont for a moment think that this is A.) going to fly rules wize with most people and B.) a good idea in the first place at all. I just wanted to make shure his idea got a fair account.

[Gentlemanloser]

Skimmer Moves Fast from Deepstriking would have been a bonus. If you're really worried about it's survivability, attach a Libby to Mordrak, stick them in the Raven and use Shrouding on it.

 

You then also have the option to use The Summoning next turn, with the Ravens (or Libby's) Teleport Homer. And you DS within the much larger footprint of the Raven.

 

Edit: That's a good point about disembarkment. I hadn't considered that. Still caught up on DSing moving flat out. :P

 

As it's only Cruising Speed, you could DS the Raven, as said above, Fire 1 main, 1 PotMS, and any defensive weapons. Mord, his unit and the Dread can disembark, and fire all thier Ranged weapons as well (Or Run into cover. ;) ).

 

And with a Libby all could get Shrouding. And DSing the Raven limits the potential for it to get imobilised/destroyed on Turn 1, without delivering its cargo, if you go second. Sure, it could still get popped turn two after it's DS, but by then it's deployed a Squad and Dread.

 

Still sounds like a bad idea?

[Chairman_woo]

Skimmer Moves Fast from Deepstriking would have been a bonus. If you're really worried about it's survivability, attach a Libby to Mordrak, stick them in the Raven and use Shrouding on it.

 

You then also have the option to use The Summoning next turn, with the Ravens (or Libby's) Teleport Homer. And you DS within the much larger footprint of the Raven.

 

Edit: That's a good point about disembarkment. I hadn't considered that. Still caught up on DSing moving flat out. :D

 

As it's only Cruising Speed, you could DS the Raven, as said above, Fire 1 main, 1 PotMS, and any defensive weapons. Mord, his unit and the Dread can disembark, and fire all thier Ranged weapons as well (Or Run into cover. ;) ).

 

And with a Libby all could get Shrouding. And DSing the Raven limits the potential for it to get imobilised/destroyed on Turn 1, without delivering its cargo, if you go second. Sure, it could still get popped turn two after it's DS, but by then it's deployed a Squad and Dread.

 

Still sounds like a bad idea?

 

Shrouding will only net you a 6+ cover in the open I'm afraid, the raven is always going to be at the enemys mercy once it makes its initial attacks (unless you have some terrain that you can hide it behind which seems unlikely in most games). Its only chance is to destroy or supress its main threats before they get to shoot with the help of its little dreadnaught friend. Perhaps if you had a couple of psyfleman dreads pitching in with support fire from your baseline and a few vehicles with scary contents moving up as fast as possible to try and split priority (tooled up purifiers might do the trick) the enemy might not throw everything at the raven. But still AV12 with no cover isent likely to take a great deal of shooting and unless something substantially more scary is in range of the same weapons they are always going to go for the raven as its an easy and valuble/disruptive kill.

 

Personaly I feel that all the units in question can be employed more efficiently on their own, the dread never needs to get close to the enemy if its a psyfleman (Tho if you are determined to have a MM or assault cannon and fist then fair enough, tho the psyfleman is likely to outperform them in a vaccumb.) Mordrak can perform his own task better without the raven so its all down to what you are allowing the ravent to do i.e. dump a spearhead without fear of being shot first whilst still pumping out a respectable volume of fire. Thing is other than more ravens there arnt really any vehicles that are fast enough to start splitting fire priority with the raven consistently. Rhinos etc. arnt fast like with bloodangels (for who'm this concept would work much better as a result) so realisticly you only have a 12" move unless you use the GM for some scouting, but that is going to be unreliable at best. It might come off sometimes, but I cant see it being very consistent.

 

Still if you do try this anyway please do let us know how it goes.

 

 

EDIT: also wouldn't leaving a summoning librarian inside just give the enemy more reason to destroy your already easy to kill 200+pt thunderduck?

[Gentlemanloser]

Technically the SR would have a 5+ save, as it gets Stealth in addition to the 6+ form open ground. :huh:

 

Not as good as moves fast, but at least still on par to flickerfields (is it?).

 

I'd never advocate putting a Rifleman in a SR. Ravens are design to supply Cc dread, which really we don't have any specialised type of (a failing I feel with the new Dex.). But you could use a MM/Psy Cannon Doomfist Dread in that roll.

 

Mordrak can perform his own task better without the raven

 

The same, sure. But how better?

 

But I agree, if it's the only vehicle you use, and you leave it in front of the enemy, it's getting damage. But I always plan to use Scouting Rhinos, and this will give the enemy another problematic close vehicle to deal with. Do you try to down the Raven, with it's immunity to Melta and a potential 5++ save? Or the mutliple Rhinos carrying Purifiers/Psycannons? Or the Rifleman sitting on my home objective bombarding you with S8 Twin Linked shots? Or the Doomfist Dread that just jumped out of the Raven itself?

 

Vehicle saturation ftw! :lol:

[RedemptionNL]

Not the same. :)

 

You can't DS Land Raiders, as they can't DS. The SR actually has DS as a rule though, and can DS with or without Mordrak.

 

I suppose it really depends on what 'accompanies' means. It's not 'Attached' or 'Embarked' as they are both definied terms. Does Mordrak 'embarked' in a Transport 'accompany' it? If so, there's nothing I can see to stop his 'First in the fray' from working.

 

That's what I meant. It's not Mordrak doing the Deep Striking in that case, it's the transport he's embarked on. Mordrak is just along for the ride. As his First to the Fray rule specifically states it only works when Mordrak himself is deployed via Deep Strike, and not deployed in another way, like say, embarked in a transport.

[Gentlemanloser]

So a unit in a Transport where the Transport is being deployed by Outflanking isn't itself being deployed by Outflanking?

 

Is a unit in a Transport not being deployed at all, and only deploys when it disembarks, regardless of how the Transport deployed?

[RedemptionNL]

They are being deployed, they're being deployed as embarked on a transport. If they were deployed as Deep Striking, they've arrive seperatly. The Transport is then doing the Deep Striking or Outflanking, not the embarked unit. Special rules don't suddenly exchange between the units.

For the same reason Deep Striking Blood Angel Stormravens don't suddenly gain Descent of Angels if an Assault Squad is embarked.

[Gentlemanloser]

At work, so not sure this is the correct rules from the BRB, but under reserves the only relevant things I can find are;

 

Preparing Reserves

 

The player must specify if any transport vehicles in Reserve is carrying any of the infantry units <snip> (If they do, they will be rolled for and arrive together) <snip> If units in Reserve have the Deep Strike <snip> special rule, the player must declare to the opponent whether <snip> they are going to use thier special rules to Deep Strike

 

Deep Strike

 

Models arriving via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain and may not move further in that Movement phase other than to disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle. <snip> being disrupted by thier Deep Strike move, however, they may not mount any Assault in the turn they arrive

 

From here, it seem to me that units inside a transport that deep strike are also classed as deep striking (otherwise the models embarked *aren't* arriving via DS, and can move and Assault as normal). And can use any Deep Striking special rules they might have, regardless of being embarked or not.

 

But I'm happy to be shown where this is wrong. ;)

[RedemptionNL]

He arrives via Deep Strike, yes, however he is not deployed as Deep Striking.

[KnowThyEnemy]

interesting point about the DoA argument. I guess my question as to this being a valid tactic or not would be the wording of Mordrack's rule. I believe it says something along the lines of Mordrack and any unit he accompanies, if deployed via deepstrike, can enter 1st turn without scattering. DoA is a squad rule (like ATSKNF correct?) that says that squad only scatters 1d6" when deployed by DS. I think the distinction between the two would be Mordrack's rule implies, and i stress that word, that it is conveyed to any unit hes joined to. when you are embarked inside of a transport, i would say your joined to it (you move with it, it restricts your firing, it limits what and when you can assault, etc). if you werent joined to it, youd be able to do things regardless of what the transport was doing. i guess what im saying is i view "joined to" as 2 units (IC and a squad for example) existing together within a certain set of rules that influences both units together at the same time. i think the argument that the transport is doing the DSing and not his squad is wrong, due to the fact any squad arriving in a transport that has deepstriked follows all the rules for deepstriking (counting as having moved, no assaulting). so to say hes not deepstiking but follows all the rules for deepstriking seems a little bit of a twist on wording. they're either deepstriking and following those rules or not and are following the rules for disembarking from a transport that moved at cruising speed. cant have it both ways imo. either way the wording is ambiguous at best (typical but impossible to avoid, people will always try to find those loopholes i dont care how well the rules are written) and id reserve my judgement until i see some FAQ. as it stands now id allow it if someone pulled it on me (or i tried to do the pulling) or would be willing to do the ole roll-a-d6 solution. plus, even if your opponent agrees with you or you win that all important dice roll, its still a big gamble...but its tempting to me nontheless ;)

[KnowThyEnemy]

deployment happens before game turn 1. he is being placed in the transport (stormraven) with the intent to be deployed via deepstrike (stormraven has this rule, so hes not conveying any special rule to it). turn 1 happens and he arrives via deepstrike. 2 words that are easily interchangeable in this scenario. (placed in the sotrmraven with the intent to arrive via deepstrike. 1st turn happens and he is deployed via deepstrike.)

[Gentlemanloser]

He arrives via Deep Strike, yes, however he is not deployed as Deep Striking.

 

There's no difference.

 

His arrival is his deployment. Disembarkation isn't a deployment, as then every unit embarking then disembarking during the game would also be deploying itself...

 

Also, from the main rulebook FAQ; (should have checked this first! ;))

 

Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has

arrived by Deep Stike that turn also count as having

arrived by Deep Strike? (p95)

A: Yes.

 

Mordrak in a SR deploying by DS is also deploying by DS.

[RedemptionNL]

when you are embarked inside of a transport, i would say your joined to it (you move with it, it restricts your firing, it limits what and when you can assault, etc). if you werent joined to it, youd be able to do things regardless of what the transport was doing. i guess what im saying is i view "joined to" as 2 units (IC and a squad for example) existing together within a certain set of rules that influences both units together at the same time.

No, joining and embarking are two very different things. For example, only Independent Characters can join units, and embarked units can shoot at a different target then the vehicle they're embarked on. That's also probably why Mordrak's rule mentions 'accompany' instead of 'join', as he is not an Independent Character. Which does create ambiguity, I agree.

 

i think the argument that the transport is doing the DSing and not his squad is wrong, due to the fact any squad arriving in a transport that has deepstriked follows all the rules for deepstriking (counting as having moved, no assaulting). so to say hes not deepstiking but follows all the rules for deepstriking seems a little bit of a twist on wording. they're either deepstriking and following those rules or not and are following the rules for disembarking from a transport that moved at cruising speed. cant have it both ways imo.

Not all rules for deep striking, such as the placing in a circle, mishaps and such.

 

PS.: please use paragraphs in the future for some readability. Walls of text are eye-straining to read.

[RedemptionNL]

He arrives via Deep Strike, yes, however he is not deployed as Deep Striking.

 

There's no difference.

 

His arrival is his deployment. Disembarkation isn't a deployment, as then every unit embarking then disembarking during the game would also be deploying itself...

 

Also, from the main rulebook FAQ; (should have checked this first! :P)

 

Q: Does a unit being transported by a vehicle that has

arrived by Deep Stike that turn also count as having

arrived by Deep Strike? (p95)

A: Yes.

 

Mordrak in a SR deploying by DS is also deploying by DS.

 

Well, that says arriving again, not deploying. He is arriving by Deep Strike, yes. He is deployed as 'embarked on a transport that is deep striking'. You're not using the Deep Strike special rule of Mordrak, you're using the Deep Strike special rule of the Stormraven. Which is also why can Deep Strike units without the rule in a tranport with the rule, but can't Deep Strike a transport with the rule, even if the units embarked on it have it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Arriving and deploying are the same thing. There's no difference.

 

The second point is also covered in the FAQ. You can't DS in mixed units with/without the DS rule.

 

Again, if he's not being deployed by DS, then he can move and assault after disembarking the SR.

 

Edit: Again, these might not be 100% official but from;

 

Reserves

 

Preparing Reserves

When deploying thier army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in thier army and instead leave them in Reserve.

 

<snip>

 

The player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it

 

Arriving from Reserve

Deep Striking units arrive from Reserve

 

Arriving by DS is deploying those units held in Reserve.

[KnowThyEnemy]

lol sorry about the wall-o-texts. i always get carried away with my response

 

as for the difference between IC + squad and squad + transport, i was basing my statement on the thought that there is a core rule (an IC who joins a squad has to do whatever the squad is doing unless he leaves it) and then an exception to the core rule (units inside a transport may fire at a different target than the transport), though i understand that those rules are independant from each other.

 

GWs rules do tend to be of the line that "here is what this squad can do because of rule X" followed by somewhere much later in the rule book "some exceptions to rule X are..."

 

i understand not all rules apply, but you do have the ones that can actually be applied happening. if they are inside the transport, they are all technically touching each others bases :P. and if a vehicle scatters onto another unit, they still suffer mishaps correct? so does the unit inside, and not a separate result but the same one

[RedemptionNL]

Arriving and deploying are the same thing. There's no difference.

Just repeating it over and over doesn't make it any more true. :down: Deploying as Deep Striking is done during the Deployment phase (BRB, page 94, the 'preparing reserves' section). If a unit has the Deep Strike rule like the Stormraven or Valkyrie, you declare whether or not you want to Deep Strike it. You also declare whether or not you have a unit on board. That unit is just held in Reserve, it does not actually Deep Strike itself.

 

Arriving from Reserves, or in this case Deep Strike specifically, is done during the Movement Phase (BRB, page 94, the 'arriving from reserves' section).. As you noted earlier from the FAQ quote, embarked units count as arriving from Deep Strike. 'Counts as' makes a large difference in W40k rules. Counts as moving do not actually have to move. Counts as Troops are not actually Troops, etc.

 

So deploying and arriving can't be the same thing, it's not even done in the same game phase.

 

The second point is also covered in the FAQ. You can't DS in mixed units with/without the DS rule.

What does that have to do with this issue? That's about attaching an IC without Deep Strike capabilities to a Deep Strike capable unit. The unit cannot Deep Strike then. Transports with the Deep Strike rule can Deep Strike just fine if the embarked unit does not have the rule, because the embarked unit doesn't Deep Strike itself.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just repeating it over and over doesn't make it any more true. Deploying as Deep Striking is done during the Deployment phase (BRB, page 94, the 'preparing reserves' section). If a unit has the Deep Strike rule like the Stormraven or Valkyrie, you declare whether or not you want to Deep Strike it. You also declare whether or not you have a unit on board. That unit is just held in Reserve, it does not actually Deep Strike itself.

 

Yup, quoted that to the effect above.

 

Arriving from Reserves, or in this case Deep Strike specifically, is done during the Movement Phase (BRB, page 94, the 'arriving from reserves' section).. As you noted earlier from the FAQ quote, embarked units count as arriving from Deep Strike. 'Counts as' makes a large difference in W40k rules. Counts as moving do not actually have to move. Counts as Troops are not actually Troops, etc.

 

So deploying and arriving can't be the same thing, it's not even done in the same game phase.

 

There's a quote above from the Reserve section.

 

"The player picks one of the units arriving, and deploys it".

 

You *cannot* Deploy by Deep Strike during the Deployment Phase. You can only do that once the unit arives, and is deployed during the relevant Movement Phase. Deploying is the physical act of placing a unit on the board. But a unit DSing has to 'arrive' first, before it can be placed on the board.

 

If it arrives using the DS rules, it deploys using the DS rules. There should be no question on this.

 

Transports with the Deep Strike rule can Deep Strike just fine if the embarked unit does not have the rule, because the embarked unit doesn't Deep Strike itself.

 

Now that is a very pertinent point! Something I can't counter atm. :lol:

 

I could point back to the main book FAQ and how mixed units can't DS, but then that doesn't explain Drop Pods. Not sure I can counter this. :down:

 

Edit: on second thoughts, if we don't allow the Transport to be the unit Deep Striking, and refer back tot he main book FAQ on mixed units DSing, then our SR can't DS if it has a Dread embarked.

 

Edit 2: More thoughts.

 

I think it's still possible, just becuase of the 'counts as' FAQ. Sure, counts as isn't the same as, but in relation to 40k, the recepient acts exactly like, restrictions and all, they had actually done the thing they 'count as'. So if Mordrak Counts As deepstriking, then in all intent, he has. He can't move, assault, etc, and his stipulation of deploying by DS is fulfilled. Then we're back to accompanying. Personally, as mentioned above, I think it's wored this way as he's not an IC that can attach/join another unit, and if it was to only specify his Ghost Knights (including any attached ICs), then it would/should have been specified as such. There are distinct names used to relate to the specific. Join/Attach/Embark. None were used, so the ability has to be more generally applied.

 

Does Mordrak accompany a Transport? Sure. He's inside it, restricted by all it's restriction (fire points, assault ramps, etc) can use his powers from within (Hammerhand and PC). They're chosen as a single 'unit' when coming in from Reserves, and all suffer any potential Mishaps from such.

 

I think it would be pedantic at best to try to claim he wasn't accompanying a Transport. And a Transport certainly qualifies as a Unit.

 

So that's satisfied as well.

 

But, I'm sure we'll need an offical FAQ (like the long list we already have!) on this. :lol:

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

He arrives via Deep Strike, yes, You're not using the Deep Strike special rule of Mordrak, you're using the Deep Strike special rule of the Stormraven. Which is also why [you] can Deep Strike units without the rule in a transport with the rule, but can't Deep Strike a transport with[out] the rule, even if the units embarked on it have it.

 

I agree with this edited message. :)

 

But let us not forget that even it could work within the rules, it is a fairly poor idea, considering the alternatives.

[Gentlemanloser]

But let us not forget that even it could work within the rules, it is a fairly poor idea, considering the alternatives.

 

Why?

 

And equally, what alternatives?

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

But let us not forget that even it could work within the rules, it is a fairly poor idea, considering the alternatives.

 

Why?

 

And equally, what alternatives?

 

I point you to all my earlier posts in the thread. And any other posts which explains the cost versus benefit analysis of this (almost certainly non-legal) idea.

[Gentlemanloser]

And I in turn point you back to my rebuttals...

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Don't ask why when I already explained my point. Don't ask me about alternatives when I already listed alternatives.

 

And I in turn point you back to my rebuttals...

 

Which are less than convincing to me. Sorry dude.

[number6]

Immovable object, allow me to introduce you to unstoppable force. ;)

 

In the end, FWIW, I happen to agree with FJ3jr's "it isn't worth it" sentiment. Tactically, I don't think you're getting much bang for your buck.

 

And just as importantly, anything that causes this much argument grief probably isn't worth attempting during a game anyway. :)