Need help over coming Death Wing

[Dewi Sant]

I played my friends DW yesterday and lets just say it was not pretty.

 

1500 points, 3 objectives, pitched battle. He stole first turn.

 

Off the top of my head he had the following....

 

Belial TLC

Apoc

Company Banner

Libarian

1 DW Term with CML

3 TH/SS TDA

 

3 Squads

4x TH/SS TDA

1x CML TDA

 

3x LS Typhoons with MM.

 

Each squad also had a Chain fist.

 

I had the following...

 

HQ

 

Hrolf Ice Wind (Rune Priest)

Melta Bombs.

Jaw’s of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane

 

Ulfar Storm Fist (Rune Priest)

Jaw’s of the World Wolf, Living Lightening

 

 

Elite's

 

Wolf Gurad

Eldgrim = Combi Melta & Power Fist

Ornolf = Combi Melta & Power Fist

Thorfast = Combi Melta & Power Fist

 

 

Troops

 

Hunter Pack Runolf

8 Grey Hunters, Melta gun, Standard, MoW, Rhino. (Hrolf & Ornolf attached)

 

Hunter Pack Orn

8 Grey Hunters, Melta gun, Standard, MoW, Rhino. (Ulfar & Thorfast attached)

 

Hunter Pack Ironmund

8 Grey Hunters, Melta gun, Standard, MoW, Rhino. (Eldgrim attached)

 

 

Fast Attack

 

Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

 

 

Heavy Support

 

Fang Pack Eirik Long Eye

6 Long Fangs, 3 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Connon, Razorback (LC/TLPG).

 

Fang Pack Yarrik One Fang

6 Long Fangs, 3 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Connon, Razorback (LC/TLPG).

 

 

Lets just say 14 Krak missiles coming my way and my transports didn't last long, and as soon as they were gone it turned to frag the long fangs.

 

Jaws ripped the Belial unit to shreds but apart from a pack of GH felling 4TH/SS Terminators in a single round of CC I couldn't do a lot.

 

Trying to kill that much 2+3++ even with the amount of AP 1/2 weapons I had is impossible and once they get into CC you can pretty much say good night.

 

Does anyone have any ideas how I can improve my list to make it more competitive?

[MaveriK]

hope this helps you gain some insight against Deathwing...

 

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011...-deathwing.html

http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011...ng-weekend.html

[Hear da Lamentation]

This all sounds very familar to me. One of my main opponents plays deathwing and he has an army almost exactly the same as the one you mention, but with a Whirlwind instead of the librarian.

 

My army has the same base of RP, GHs and LF but with slightly smaller GH squads, a biker pack, Thunderwolf cavalry pack and Lord and all missile launcher longfangs without RB instead of the extra RP, speeders.

 

I struggle as well.

 

The amount of missile launchers the DW can bring to bear is awesome, and they are in a unit of 2+ 3++ where you have to kill 4 termies before you can take out the ML. Also in combat they are much better than we are ... and the belial unit can take an absolutely ridiculous amount of punishment.

 

My advice (not that I've beaten him since the faq ... but I have been close) is to take advantage of his lack of maneuverability, bring a minimum of 2 GH packs to take one termie squad. Cover is obviously your friend and you need to ensure your LF are in cover at all times, or they will be massacred. You also want to try and protect the rhino's as well, all you can go for is cover and early smoke launchers though. My mate usually deepstrikes his Belial unit right up in my face by one pack of LF - so try to separate them as well.

 

I don't know how my TWC will do against them yet as they are a new addition, but once again I would think they will need backup.

 

Just go for the numbers ... massed dice will do more damage than high str or AP1,2 (unless it is against the FNP Belial unit of course.)

If you can get them to bunch at all - go for Krak's ... more dice = more dead. Jaws can also be very nice of course ... and is MH.

 

Still ... it's certainly an uphill battle for SW vs DW.

[Icewolf]

Now I don't have much battle experience but you could always try long fangs with heavy bolters to get massed dice rolling on his terminators as more saves to take = more failed saves and a squad with 5 heavy bolters - thats 15 shots which hit and wound on a 3.

 

Icewolf

[Thunderhawk3015]

This DW list is one of those that the only really effective way I have seen to beat it is make them roll massed dice and force them to assault into cover and keep a rune priest with whatever the difficult/dangerous terrain for deepstrike etc psychic power is.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I'm not sure what the benefit of making them assault into cover. OK, they dont have grenades, so will go last - but if they all have TH/SS they go last anyway. For me, it is important to deny them the charge in the 1st place. You charge them, they get 5 less TH attacks because they didnt charge. On average this is 2-3 dead Grey Hunters .....

[jjfelber]

Icewolf is correct. Bring mass QUANTITY of firepower. Lots of bolters. Lots of heavy bolters. All you really need to do is stand and fire until he is close. Then charge him so he doesn't get the extra attacks. Use stormcaller for cover. If you kill just 2 or 3 of a five man unit the last two will fall to your close combat attacks.

 

His army has... 21wounds? About. Not hard to roll 21 '1's for SVs in the course of a game.

 

As for psychic powers, I would use Stormcaller, murderous hurricane and LL, murderous hurricane.

 

Once his units are within 18 inches. The hurricane will mop up. You may kill a model or two, but mainly the unit is now in difficult and dangerous terrain. So there is a potential for more wounds when the move, and they may move slower which will allow for more bolter shots against them.

 

The LL is for the units out of range but more for the landspeeders.

 

When in doubt leave the bells and whistles for more bolters. Your wolfguard are 130ish points you could use for almost 10 more grey hunters or a unit of longfangs with 5 HvyBolters.

[Emperors Immortals]

Not sure how useful this will be since im just getting to grips with 5th ed,but personally i take a DP dev squad against my friends Ultrawing with 4 HB and 1 asscan - i land wipe out at least half a unit and usually can have enough models up field to make them a threat again in the next turn.Thats pretty aggressive play thoguh, and may not be appropriate for SW.

[Brother Micky]

wheres ur battle report..?

 

decribe what happerned in this game..

 

and then maybe we will help u out..

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Your list is a good one. I don't think you can bring much more than what you have. I probably wouldn't take PC, as ML are so good against transport AV, but the PC actually work well against Termies, even with 3++ saves.

 

So here is the weakness in the DW list - slow on the ground. He has decent anti-transport shooting for the CML and MM, but not too much anti-infantry shooting.

 

So you have to keep mobile and isolate one unit at a time, and throw everything at it. Then onto the next one. You have to treat each one like a deathstar unit, which means focus of aim.

Once you have killed one, you have more room to faff around in, giving you more time and space to do your thing.

 

If his Speeders are on the table, fire your kraks at them. You will kill them quicker than you will a squad of Terminators. That will make your Rhinos last longer, which will keep you mobile. You can use Rhinos to clog his movement. The point of the Rhinos is to facilitate the Greys. If that means moving them around, then do that. If that means driving in the way [at greater than 6" movement, if possible] then so be it.

 

Fire the PC at the Termies. It might also be worth fragging them when the DS, if they have not run'ed and just try LL on the Speeders instead.

Your homework is to see how many 40mm bases you can fit under a 3" template and report back :P

I don't have any minis handy at the moment.

 

+++

 

I will let you in on some Tau secrets. Tau have to play the layered defense, aka The Onion, against any list with even average melee capability - everyone just seems to want to punch my little blue homies in the face. Boo! Anyway, to give the Tau longer to pewpew those belligerent bullies to death, the Tau general needs to set up intelligently and then enact a carefully choreographed routine. giving maximum time, ideally, to neuter any rushing units.

 

1] You can deploy your firebase, which is your fulcrum, in one place, which works well against slower lists, or in two places, which works well for 'faster' lists. Now DW are not fast, but they can turn up on your doorstep, and early, with DW Assault.

So don't deploy your Fang packs close together. You don't have to deploy them in opposite corners of the table, but a bit more than 24" apart.

If he destroys one section, it will take him at least three turns [6+6+12"] to get to the next one if it is 24" apart. If you are 30" apart, it will take him most of the game....

 

2] Secondly, move-blocking. Tau use Piranhas to fly right up into the face of a LRC+hammernators unit. Whilst I wouldn't do that early in the game [if the DW squad is far away] I would do that with the Speeders if he is within assault range of a Greys pack. If you move-block well, he won't be able to assault the Greys, and will only be able to assault the Speeder, which will be 'behind' or away from where he wants to go [towards the Greys] and have to hit it on 6s.

-> 15 attacks will only be getting 2-3 hits, on average. He then has to pen and then destroy the Speeder. He might not even do that, whereas he'd be scything throw a unit on the charge.

*You don't get to consolidate after fighting a vehicle either, iIrc, so he isn't gaining ground on you.

 

As long as you are clever with positioning the Greys, you can even RF his unit on the turn you move-block him, and all you'll be doing is giving him a cover save - big deal when he already has a 3++ ;)

 

You can do the same with the Rhinos, as long as you can see a model, your Greys can fire on the DW to full effect.

 

3] Kroot walls. With Kroot, you never* [never say never, but you know what I mean?] assault with them. If a unit of, say, Templar Crusaders are about to charge your Kroot. You just move to 1" away from them and RF. Why? Because the Tau behind the Kroot can still fire to near full effect [again, who cares about a 4+ cover save, which they'd likely get anyway, as they already have a 3+ save], the Kroot fire to full effect and none of your Kroot have died in your turn. If you assault with the Kroot, you are allowing your foe to a] kill your men in your turn and b] possibly wipe them out and get an extra d6" for free. In his turn, all he'll be able to do is assault 1" and, if things go well for him, consolidate d6"

1+d6" is better than d6+6+possibly, from an assault, 6"

 

If Belial and friends are about to cream a unit, and you cannot charge him with multiple packs, sacrifice the pack and detach your Runepriest, moving him away from the pack.

 

Good luck and Tau'va. I mean, For the Emperor! ;)

[Dewi Sant]

Thanks Wolf Brothers, your replies are all of sound advice. For those who want it I will give a little more information.

 

I first squad deployed my LF's in cover on the roof of a single story building offering good arcs of fire down the right of the board and to the centre. The second LF squad were deployed on the same horizontal around 24'' away in a 3 story building giving excellent cover to the left and and able to interlock arcs with the pack on the right.

 

The GH Rhinos were deployed in a horse shoe formation (HSF) blocking LOS to the RB's.

 

LS were placed in reserve.

 

He Deployed in the centre of the board keeping his Terminators at the max 2'' spacing (Thought the battle, pretty much making it impossible to hit more than one of his guy with the small blast marker).

His LS were Left/Center/Right, while Belial's squad DW assaulted to the left of the right hand LF squad.

 

He had first turn, this is were things went down hill.

 

DW

a. Rhino on left of HSF exploded buy LS on the left. 1x GH killed in explosion

b. Center Rhino wrecked

c. Rhino on right explodes killing 2x GH

d. 1x RB explodes due to CML fire.

 

SW (first and most effective turn goes like this....)

a. Drop all his Landspeeders (killing one TH/SS Termie in the explosion :D

b. Hit Belials squad with more or less everything I've got as these are the biggest treat at the time. Jaws from both RP's take down Belial, CML, and a TH/SS Termie. Librarian fails Force Barrier save against PC and dies.

 

Turn 2

 

DW

a. Moves his wall of Terminators closer to my lines.

b. CLM's GH packs with frag killing lots.

c. Charges LF on the right flank with remainder of Beliel Squad wiping them out, consolidates 6'' away from my hunters.

 

SW

a. Roll for reserves. 2 6's. Really didn't want my Speeders to tip up till later inorder to contest objectives. Turbo boost 1 down the left flank and hide behind cover. Other finishes of immobilised and stunned enemy Speeder on left flank and stays in cover.

b.RP fails test

c. GH Squad move towards remainder of Beliel Squad and attack in CC. Remain locked.

d. Other RP snipes at one for the other squads CLM's dropping it down a hole.

 

Turn 3

 

DW

a. Frags LF's with remainder of CLM taking squad down to 2 PC.

b. Charges weakened GH in center wiping them and the RP out.

c. Finishes off GH still locked in combat from turn 2.

 

SW

a. Think F**K this if I'm going down i'm going down with a fight!

b. Fire both of my LS at one of his squads doing nothing. :D

c. RP casts MH on Jaws dropping another one.

d. Pop banner, roll 6 for MoW, charge a 4 TH/SS terminators squad wiping them off the face of the earth!

 

Turn 4

 

DW

a. Explodes other RB

b. Explodes both LS

c. Frags GH causing them to flee

 

It went on till the beginning of my turn 6 but we called it quits. I only had a few GH's left and the two PC LF's on top of the building on the left with him holding 2 objectives.

 

I think general consensus is correct, weight of fire is the only thing that will win the day.

 

Im not really into altering a list to combat each opponent but for the Dark Angles I will make an exception. ;)

Beating him is the only way he will take a more balanced list.

A FAQ from GW increasing the cost of TH/SS, removing unlimited range hoods, and increasing the cost of CLM and Typhoons would be nice though. ;)

 

Stand by to have a look at my high model count dakka dakka list.

 

 

Oh and thanks Brother Micky seems there was enough information in the original post for my fellow wolves to offer help. Bloody moody DA ;)

[Thunderhawk3015]

I'm not sure what the benefit of making them assault into cover. OK, they dont have grenades, so will go last - but if they all have TH/SS they go last anyway.

 

Making him roll difficult terrain tests which could potentially give you a second round of shooting at him.

[Darkseer]

oh, I'd love to play an all TH/SS terminator army. All of my squads could get out of the transports without having to worry about storm bolter fire!

 

You can out shoot him. You can out maneuverer him. Do both.

Prioritise all your fire on 1 target at a time and force lots of 2+ saves. Remember he should be failing 1 in 6.

[Simo429]

Murderous Hurricane would be my psychic power of choice against that army.

[Darkseer]

Murderous Hurricane + JAWS :down:

[Simo429]

Murderous Hurricane + JAWS :blink:

Nah Jaws never kills anything bar the odd thunderwolf <_<

[Hear da Lamentation]

Yes, I definitely wouldn't count out Jaws as a decent termie killer. 24" rather than 18" for MH and a 1/3 chance of killing one as opposed to 1 in 6 usually. No FNP either, plus you can snipe hq's or CMLs or apothacries. I love both powers and always have them as they are both so multi-army. Even if you meet a high initiative army, odds on MH is still going to be really good.

 

Last game I managed to catch a termie squad doing a conga to get round a building :D . Hit them all and killed 2, including the CML guy. This equates to about 40 bolter shots or 10 missile launchers.

[MalachiOfRuss]

The amount of missile launchers the DW can bring to bear is awesome, and they are in a unit of 2+ 3++ where you have to kill 4 termies before you can take out the ML.

Sounds like you are not playing with proper Wound Allocation rules. If you cause as many Wounds with 1 squad of shooting as there are units left in the squad, he must make the save roll for that guy with the CML separately.

 

eg. If there are 4 guys left in the Termie squad, and 1 has the CML, if you cause 6 wounds he has to "allocate" those wounds to the various members of the squad. If they are all the same except for the CML, then you can speed things up by just having him roll for the saves on the guy that is different. Read up on Wound Allocation rules - they are there for this specific situation! (the guy with the special weapon is always the last casualty)

 

Also remember that Dangerous Terrain tests are made per model! That means he rolls a die for each specific guy. Again, that means he's got to roll for the guy with the CML separately! It may not seem like much, and it may seem nit-picky, but it could mean the difference of him losing those CML's much earlier!

[Hear da Lamentation]

And in defence of the DW list, I don't think it is unbalanced. It is a good rounded list which will do fairly well against any army I would think. He could do with a small tweak to deal a little better with hoardes, but probably not much