Aidoneus Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 It seems like every single other codex that includes Terminators gives them the option to take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. Why, when Grey Knights have such an emphasis on Terminators, do they not have this option? It can't just be an oversight. For some reason, GW has made the conscious decision that Grey Knights need to use precious Heavy Support slots to buy transports for half the units in the army. Why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Joseph Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 to prevent Grand strategy abuse. namely scouting LR filled with terms Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyking Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 to prevent Grand strategy abuse. namely scouting LR filled with terms Yeah, or Stormravens. Scouting Stormravens would get ugly fast. Especially when filled with GKT and Dreads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 to prevent Grand strategy abuse. namely scouting LR filled with terms Fair enough, but what about the other 90% of the time, when you just want a transport without having to sacrifice slots for Dread-things? Couldn't they have just said GKT can take a dedicated LR transport, but may not then be given Scouts from Grand Strategy? I don't mean to simply whine, but I can't help but feel like this is either a deliberate snub by GW, or incredibly lazy design. Given how long we've all waited for the new codex, and how enviously we've seen all the consistent advances in the other codices, it just pains me that GW wouldn't give us something that we need so badly, and that it makes so much sense for us to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 As far as I know only blood angels have dedicated landraiders, I don't think that you should use that as the norm instead they are the exception. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomaflatchi Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I can't help but feel that this choice was made, at least in part, to prevent Land Raider Spam. AR 14 is powerful. Like, really powerful. And for all the Mathammer that says it can be beaten, its actual impact on the game is incredible. But more than that, from a design perspective, its presence restricts the way the game can be played. There are plenty of army building options available to everyone that skew the way your opponent views and reacts to the table - that's part of what makes the game fun - but seeing nothing but AR 14 on the table doesn't skew your opponent's tactical options, it obliterates them. Things either work against AR 14 and only really work against AR 14, or they can't scratch the thing. This not only brings an incredible dualism to the combat style of the game, but it also invalidates large portions of your opponent's list... and there's no quicker way to strip the fun out of a game than by invalidating the player's choices. Ultimately, I feel this is also why Fearless has been removed from the entire army. I think it's about keeping us viable, but preventing us from circumventing our opponent's options. Having played a tri-Raider list for 20+ games, I will firmly attest that in many cases it feels more like Solitaire than Warhammer. I prefer a system in which, though one side might be preternaturally tough, that toughness comes from ablation rather than negation. This, I think, is why the Land Raider has been moved from a "staple" roll in our lists to a, well, "heavy" role in our lists. ;) Just my two cents, anyway... so I might be completely wrong! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Can't storm ravens scout??? I thought that scout passes onto the vehicle?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 @Justcar: Scout only passes to dedicated transports. Thus, Purifiers in a Rhino can apply Scout to that Rhino, but the same squad who happens to begin the game embarked in a HS Land Raider or FA Storm Raven cannot apply Scout to those vehicles. @Drachnon: I know for a fact that the basic Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine codices allow it, as do Space Wolves. I can't speak to Black Templar or Dark Angels, but I seem to recall that at least one of those allows it too. The point is, it's the near-universal standard now. @Doomaflatchi: I agree with everything you say. However, that doesn't explain why all the other marine codices allow Raiders as transport, while ours does not. Our land raiders are no more powerful than anyone else's, so why should they be more restricted? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomaflatchi Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 @Doomaflatchi: I agree with everything you say. However, that doesn't explain why all the other marine codices allow Raiders as transport, while ours does not. Our land raiders are no more powerful than anyone else's, so why should they be more restricted? They should be more restricted because our models cost more, and we get fewer squads. Because we can still be effective with fewer squads (because our squads are individually more powerful), we tactically sacrifice less by fielding fewer bodies in order to put our entire force in Land Raiders. Our comparative ability to spread out, feint, pincer attack, or blitz is hurt less than when cheaper, weaker marines try to do the same thing. I apologize if that's not clear, since it's kind of a round-about concept. I'll try to come up with a better way of explaining it, but until then, I'll let this stand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 As far as I know only blood angels have dedicated landraiders, I don't think that you should use that as the norm instead they are the exception. Black Templars still rock raiders as transports...indeed they may have been the first chapter to do so and when their codex gets a revamp my guess is that they will still have this option. In regards to terminators most marine armies have the choice of selecting a raider as a dedicated transport for their termies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
krewl Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 BT - LR Crusader transports for termies BA - Any type of raider for termies DA - Only non dedicated raiders SM - 1 of each type of termie squad can take a dedicated LR. SW - One unit of Wolfguard may select a landraider as a dedicated transport Now GK just have some raiders :) but only non dedicated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I find it strange that we lack Dedicated LR and Drop Pods, as *obviously* our Focus is on Deep Striking. Yet we can't fit Personal Teleporters on Terminators (yet the NDK isn't too large...) and don't have anything like the DA Teleport Assault. The only small nod towards mobility of this type is 'The Summoning', and 'First in the Fray'. I think we're missing a few Special Characters, missing some Mobility and missing a CC orientated Dread. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo1701 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Don't also forget the other things in our FOC that allow heavy slots to be freed up. Purgation squads can easily be substituted by purifiers, who are elites and can be troops. Dreadnoughts have the same options as the more expensive vendreads, who are elites. Stormravens are fast rather than heavy like the BA dex. This really only leaves dreadknights and land raiders in the heavy slot, so more than enough to be spread around seeing as 3 of either kitted out will cost half your points in a 1500pt game. As for the whole dedicated transport thing, I believe that only one of each type of terminator unit can take a land raider in the marine and chaos codices (in addition to heavy support), with the BAs the only ones having it as a generic DT for anyone to use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Because they Teleport Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IraSummers Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The only small nod towards mobility of this type is 'The Summoning', and 'First in the Fray'. Don't forget about Servo Skulls. Most any of our HQs (and one Elite) can take up to 3 for quite cheap. One of their things is that if you aim to deepstrike within 6" of them, then you scatter d6 less. You don't have to worry about landing on them as they do not count as a model for that case, just a marker. This is like a "Homing" DOA attack almost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiemnex Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Something else to consider... GK can take Terminators as troops and then buy the land raider from the heavy support option. If it was dedicated this could potentially count as your 2nd troops choice for dawn of war.. Allowing you an AR 14 tank with assault ramp with scoring terminators inside of it the ability to drive almost all the way to the other players table edge on turn one? This would give a GIANT advantage against some armies... Tau, i am looking at you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2703953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I don't think there is a fluff justification for not having dedicated land raider transports. At least for terminator units. The previous DH codex explicitly stated that GKs love and use land raiders all the time. The new GK codex seems to have taken a deliberate step away from that stance. I too was disappointed to see the lack of it. :P I can only assume that GW thought it would be too powerful to have Troop terminators with dedicated land raider transports. I don't think it's overpowering at all. You're talking about around 500 pts tied up into one basket. I'm not saying it can't work in the context of an army list, but it's also clearly a risky thing to do. Even in a big army like 2000 pts. So color me confused as well. No libby dreadnoughts? No dedicated land raiders? No "descent of angels" equivalent for deep striking? Definitely a few odd decisions in this codex. I don't miss drop pods, but since GKs are the masters of teleportation, the fact that you have to use servo skulls -- which are easily destroyed -- to get accuracy kinda bugs me, too. GW really thinks GKs are dangerously powerful. That's the only reasonable conclusion, even though I can find no reasonable justification behind that assumption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Number 6 hits nail on head agian. :lol: Glad to see you're posting more! :down: Edit: Got bored of /seconded! lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Glad to see you're posting more! <_< "Real life" has been very ... insistent ever since the new year rolled around. It's still greatly hindering my ability to post on this board. I have army list ideas and want to post in every topic! But "real life" combined with trying just to moderate this forum -- which for some reason is very very busy all of a sudden -- prevents me from posting as much as I would like. Will still probably be that way for a few weeks. So I'm just poking in where I am able for now. But I'm still around and still devoted to the cause! :blink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Vain Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I don't think there is a fluff justification for not having dedicated land raider transports. At least for terminator units. The previous DH codex explicitly stated that GKs love and use land raiders all the time. The new GK codex seems to have taken a deliberate step away from that stance. I too was disappointed to see the lack of it. :D I can only assume that GW thought it would be too powerful to have Troop terminators with dedicated land raider transports. I don't think it's overpowering at all. You're talking about around 500 pts tied up into one basket. I'm not saying it can't work in the context of an army list, but it's also clearly a risky thing to do. Even in a big army like 2000 pts. So color me confused as well. No libby dreadnoughts? No dedicated land raiders? No "descent of angels" equivalent for deep striking? Definitely a few odd decisions in this codex. I don't miss drop pods, but since GKs are the masters of teleportation, the fact that you have to use servo skulls -- which are easily destroyed -- to get accuracy kinda bugs me, too. GW really thinks GKs are dangerously powerful. That's the only reasonable conclusion, even though I can find no reasonable justification behind that assumption. Seconded Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Game balance is the answer. Afterall, the entire army already has force/power weapons, psychic powers, flyers, insane weapons/upgrades, and monstrous creatures. I think the lack of a dedicated land raider is peachy keen :D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Are number6 and those who agree with him serious? Especially about the decent of angels part you really want to complain about not having enough special rules even with Aegis, preferred enemy, psychic brotherhoods and deep strike on all GK squads? Combine that with psyk-out grenades, force weapons and storm bolters as standard equipment for all. While the strike squad GK marines are only 4 or 5 points more then tactical marines of other space marine armies? Just wondering you know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo1701 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think this is where we get into the territory of 'game vs fluff', and that if you try to adhere to the fluff too closely you either end up with an army that's under or overpowered. I think the new GK dex does enough to be competitve while not being too overpowered. On first impressions, it may seem that they're marines on steroids and only 25% more pts for all the juicy upgrades they have even for a basic squad. Then you remember that they still die as easily as any other marines (highlighted by the purifiers demise in the new WD) and that some units, such as terminators, would be lucky to come out better off Vs their vanilla cousins (with TH/SS of course) for the same price. I thought at first Daemons would be shafted with all the anti-daemon stuff, but then when I considered that the price hike GKs pay over vanillas is mainly for a power/force weapon, which makes no difference at all against one army in particular - daemons. (Hence the daemonbane and preferred enemy to compensate) I think the daemon player in the WD article suffered extreme bad luck with fateweaver dying and Khorne/tzeentch heavy armies will do well Vs GKs. (Sorry for the off-topic) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Are number6 and those who agree with him serious? Yes. No DoA/Teleport Assault? OK, then where's my Drop Pod? Got a Storm Raven? OK, then where's my tasty CC dread to go in the back? All our Dreads are Psychic? Ok, then why can't they be upgraded to Mastery level 2/3? And why can't they use *any of the Librarian powers?* And where's our AV13 Dread? Ironclad, check. Bjorn, check. Furisos, check. GK? Sorry... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Are number6 and those who agree with him serious? Yes. No DoA/Teleport Assault? OK, then where's my Drop Pod? Got a Storm Raven? OK, then where's my tasty CC dread to go in the back? All our Dreads are Psychic? Ok, then why can't they be upgraded to Mastery level 2/3? And why can't they use *any of the Librarian powers?* And where's our AV13 Dread? Ironclad, check. Bjorn, check. Furisos, check. GK? Sorry... Exactly! It's the fact that these are changes that have been universal across all the new marine codices, and we have watched as every one of them gets the same (or equivalent) goodies, and we get so excited to finally have access to some of this stuff we've been coveting for years... only to find that GW still doesn't want us to have ANY of it. And as for the assertion that we have so many special bonuses already: maybe it's because I'm used to the old codex, but I don't think we have all that many. They replaced our army-wide Fearlessness with the standard ATSKNF (better in some cases, worse in others), they took away True Grit, they took away S6 weapons across the board (and there's way too much anti-psyker stuff to make even S5 reliable vs some armies), they took away Shrouding... Keep in mind, I'm not complaining about these changes (not here, anyway). I'm just baffled by your assertion that we shouldn't complain because we've been "given" in the new 'dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225829-no-dedicated-transport-land-raiders/#findComment-2704435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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