No Dedicated Transport Land Raiders?

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh and the biggie. Stormshields. (And there's an obvious answer. NFS + SS == 2++ in CC. Not going to happen. So we lose the largest protection to high powered shooting Marines have, and really the *only* reliable Perils Save as well. It's no surprise the only GK unit in the Dex to have a SS is one of two GKs that don't use a NFW...)

 

All GKs are Psychers. OK, where's my save to Perils of the Warp?

 

Fundamental things lackign form the Codex.

 

Sure, all unsaved wounds becoming Force Weapon IDs is overkill. I don't think anyone expected that.

 

But to seemingly half design us is shocking.

 

We have no Drop Pods, and are supposed to DS. But we have no 'Drop Pod Assault' / 'Teleport Assault' equivalent. No locator beacon when we have movement powers (The Summoning + Warp Satbiliastion) or DSing vehicles that *get no use* form a Teleport Homer. Strike Sqauds can DS. How? By Teleportation? By Grav Chute?

 

The list goes on.

[Hackbar]

I have made three attempts to post to this thread. Each, I have deleted after realizing that it became a TL;DR rage rant. Hopefully this bit is less so. Feel free to skip to the bottom.

 

I'd like to join the angry mob frustrated at the inconsistencies plaguing this codex.

<tl:dr>

First, we have the fluff-rules inconsistencies. If all grey knights are trained as terminators, why do the PA grey knights have fewer attacks and lower Ld? They wear their power armor by choice, not because they haven't shown the skill to earn TDA. If skill in combat is not a relevant qualification to become a Purifier, why do they all have veteran stats? etc.

Second, we have the internal rules inconsistencies. We have three psychic powers clearly designed to limit the enemy's options on their turn: Warp Quake, The Shrouding, and Sanctuary. Warp Quake is used on our turn, the other two are used on the opponent's turn right before the action against which they try to protect. Why exactly is this? Why is Psybolt Ammo so much more expensive for a storm raven than anything else? Why do we have so few teleport homers when we have so many units that can teleport? No Locator Beacons when we have so many non-teleport deep strikers? Why no defense against Perils of the Warp in an all-psyker army?

Third, we have the obvious inconsistencies with other Marine codices. Everyone else upgraded from 4++ in close combat storm shields to 3++, but the Grey Knights simply threw all their storm shields away for some reason? All the new marine codices have either a dedicated close combat dreadnought or an upgrade to make their dreads better in CC, but not Grey Knights? Every other codex save possibly Dark Angels has the option for at least one dedicated transport Land Raider, but not the Grey Knights? Every other marine codex has some non-preventable means of running a deep strike focused army. All other marines get Drop Pods, most with the Drop Pod Assault rule. BA get DoA, DA get deathwing, most can take a relative abundance of teleport homers and some even get a number of fast-moving Locator Beacons, neither of which wink out of existence if an enemy is nearby. Grey Knights get psychic communion and servo skulls, both of which can be actively neutralized by the enemy before any deep strikes could happen, and both of which require you to spend additional points beyond merely purchasing a unit capable of deep striking.

And yet, our statline, ATSKNF, and the acquisition of a marine-like force org and many of the mainstay marine vehicles seems to indicate that Grey Knights are moving towards being more like other marines. Why are these few important items missing?

</tl:dr>

 

Summary: The new GK codex seems like it's trying to take GK in a certain direction, but doesn't really understand how or is afraid to do so.

 

More directly on topic, I would agree with Number6's assessment that GW seems to have an unjustified concern that Grey Knights may be too powerful.

 

I see the lack of Dedicated Land Raiders and the disappearance of Storm Shields from our terminators, among other things, as part of a deliberate choice to make Grey Knights susceptible to enemy shooting. If we want to avoid losing our expensive terminators and paladins en masse to the low-AP weapons every sane player has, we have to choose between risking deep strike, using Grand Strategy to Scout and risking arriving late or on the wrong end of the world, or spending a ton of points and giving up heavy support or fast attack slots in order to hitch a ride. All of these are trade-offs with their own costs and risks. GW wants us to have to make this choice.

Note that the new codex is not shy about handing out decent invul saves in close combat, but bonuses against shooting are few and far between. Note that the Shrouding, instead of being improved to the point of actually being a somewhat reliable army-wide protection from shooting, was instead scrapped and rebuilt as a small area cover improvement that is next to useless for units caught in the open. Note that the storm shields Grey Knight Termiators used to be able to use are simply gone. As scary as a storm shield and nemesis force sword sounds, I suspect that they could have balanced it if they wanted to. Hell, they already have a 2++ in close combat item in there, would it be so wrong to let that same model have a 3++ vs shooting at the cost of being unable to shoot back? Leave it at 1-2 per squad, even, just like the current warding staff. Failing that, change the nemesis force sword bonus or word it so as not to stack with a storm shield.

I simply can't imagine that there was absolutely no way to balance it and that they just decided out of frustration to scrap a previously legal piece of wargear that many GK players had gone to great pains to convert minis for. Together with the rest of the book, it smells like a conscious design decision rather than an absentminded oversight in a codex that otherwise seems determined to make Grey Knights as much like codex marines as a demon hunting all-psyker army with universal storm bolters ad force weapons can be.

 

I'm rambling again. Point is, I feel that the little ommissions in the codex that make you wonder "why does everyone else have that and Grey Knights don't even have an equivalent" are indicative that there was a conscious effort to dial back Grey Knights' power level, particularly in terms of being able to get their army across the board in one piece.

[Grey Mage]

*shrugs*.

 

I could as easily ask by Bjorn doesnt have a Lightning claw but the BA furioso does- they were in production at the same time, Im sure the idea came up... so why?

 

But Landraiders as dedicated transports? I think the reasoning is partially Hackbars statement of making the army more susceptible to shooting- since they are godly in the assault phase and very strong in the shooting phase- and partially, I think its to make the PA GKs more appealing.

 

They have dedicated transports. If you want to play mechanized- wich this army certainly doesnt need to- then theyre a very viable option. If TDA also had the option for a useful dedicated transport, I doubt youd see the PA on the board as often.

 

I also feel its likely more of a drawback than people think just to have the LR as a dedicated transport- 450pts for a squad before a single piece of wargear is incredibly steep. If your opponent has decent anti-tank your survivability just dropped to nothing because the tanks will go quickly and then those same guns will be turned on the terminators they carried. That build was already going to be a rock/paper/scissors problem, winning alot against demons, orks, and nidz, and dying alot to Eldar, IG, and Tau. Why set up the game for that, again? Of course, this assumes that the same man who apparently described the GKs as sorcerers had the brains to see this.

[HERO]

Strike Sqauds can DS. How? By Teleportation? By Grav Chute?

 

Just like everything else in the codex, with their mother :cussing minds.

[Liberame]

You might not have descent of angels but you do have servo skulls to help reduce deep strike scatter.

[Doomaflatchi]

No DoA/Teleport Assault? OK, then where's my Drop Pod?

 

Got a Storm Raven? OK, then where's my tasty CC dread to go in the back?

 

All our Dreads are Psychic? Ok, then why can't they be upgraded to Mastery level 2/3? And why can't they use *any of the Librarian powers?*

 

And where's our AV13 Dread? Ironclad, check. Bjorn, check. Furisos, check. GK? Sorry...

Please allow me a moment to point out that, after months of vocal hoping that we don't end up as simply "Grey Marines" and all the jokes about "Marneus Greygar", we are now complaining that we don't have access to the options that normal Marines do.

 

Love it or hate it, I still appreciate the irony. ;)

[Hackbar]

But Landraiders as dedicated transports? I think the reasoning is partially Hackbars statement of making the army more susceptible to shooting- since they are godly in the assault phase and very strong in the shooting phase- and partially, I think its to make the PA GKs more appealing.

 

They have dedicated transports. If you want to play mechanized- wich this army certainly doesnt need to- then theyre a very viable option. If TDA also had the option for a useful dedicated transport, I doubt youd see the PA on the board as often.

 

I can see this being GW's reasoning, but it's just not true. TDA GK have a few glaring weaknesses that will always make PAGK attractive to an extent. First off, PAGK get twice as many wounds and twice as many storm bolters for the same price. One can't argue that TDA Grey Knights versatility makes them too powerful, 5 storm bolters is not that scary. Second, equal points/transport capacity of PAGK gets 33% more attacks on the charge than TDA. Considering GK have to pay a premium for wargear granting extra attacks, and have dangerously few attacks in close combat for their point value to begin with, this can be a pretty meaningful advantage. Third, PAGK can sweeping advance. If you fail to kill off something that has AP2 guns, it can shoot you to death while falling back. I've seen Land Raiders die to a lone melta gunner falling back past them and popping a shot off. Fourth, PAGK have a utility power, Warp Quake, instead of being limited to melee buff a and melee buff B.

 

The lack of sweeping advance coupled with the fact that GKT get a whole 3 ordinary power weapon attacks on the charge means that large units are going to survive, and fall back, and shoot the hell out of you, and even charge you if they're able. And let's face it, if you're fielding grey knight terminators you're going to be outnumbered.

[AoC]

Oh and the biggie. Stormshields. (And there's an obvious answer. NFS + SS == 2++ in CC. Not going to happen. So we lose the largest protection to high powered shooting Marines have, and really the *only* reliable Perils Save as well. It's no surprise the only GK unit in the Dex to have a SS is one of two GKs that don't use a NFW...)

 

All GKs are Psychers. OK, where's my save to Perils of the Warp?

 

Fundamental things lackign form the Codex.

 

Sure, all unsaved wounds becoming Force Weapon IDs is overkill. I don't think anyone expected that.

 

But to seemingly half design us is shocking.

 

We have no Drop Pods, and are supposed to DS. But we have no 'Drop Pod Assault' / 'Teleport Assault' equivalent. No locator beacon when we have movement powers (The Summoning + Warp Satbiliastion) or DSing vehicles that *get no use* form a Teleport Homer. Strike Sqauds can DS. How? By Teleportation? By Grav Chute?

 

The list goes on.

 

Well, GK would use stormshields, but in their current form they are too good, and combination of stormshield and nemesis force sword would be broken (for paladins for example).

 

If storm shields would give just 4++ save to the bearer, we would see it as an option for GK's. I bet.

 

Entire deep strike mechanic, and reserve mechanic in main rulebook need to be changed imo, in current form they suck. Maybe in 6th it's better and this codex is released with 6th in mind ?

[Hackbar]

Please allow me a moment to point out that, after months of vocal hoping that we don't end up as simply "Grey Marines" and all the jokes about "Marneus Greygar", we are now complaining that we don't have access to the options that normal Marines do.

 

Love it or hate it, I still appreciate the irony. ^_^

 

Well, considering how hard they tried to make us "Grey Marines," they could have at least given us full membership in the club. I mean, they took away our storm shields! What is this, hazing the new guy?

 

Well, GK would use stormshields, but in their current form they are too good, and combination of stormshield and nemesis force sword would be broken (for paladins for example).

 

If storm shields would give just 4++ save to the bearer, we would see it as an option for GK's. I bet.

 

Entire deep strike mechanic, and reserve mechanic in main rulebook need to be changed imo, in current form they suck. Maybe in 6th it's better and this codex is released with 6th in mind ?

 

I covered this in my TL:DR block. 1 per squad, 10-20 points, remove the warding staff from the codex. You get a 3++ to soak shooting at the cost of a storm bolter and a few points, and if you really want the 2++ in close combat you take a force sword with it. It's not like we can't already get a 2++ in close combat in the existing codex.

[AoC]

Please allow me a moment to point out that, after months of vocal hoping that we don't end up as simply "Grey Marines" and all the jokes about "Marneus Greygar", we are now complaining that we don't have access to the options that normal Marines do.

 

Love it or hate it, I still appreciate the irony. ^_^

 

Well, considering how hard they tried to make us "Grey Marines," they could have at least given us full membership in the club. I mean, they took away our storm shields! What is this, hazing the new guy?

 

They HATE YOU. And GK's are grey marines on inquisitorial service. Like they always were. Sadly, now they are all psykers.

[Hackbar]

OK, maybe I'm getting a little carried away. Just frustrated at the absolutely unfathomable thought process that produces a new Grey Knight codex without some of the gear that has become the staple and stereotype of space marine armies, while at the same time telling us that grey knights lose some of the things that made them stand out from space marines because "Grey Knights are space marines."

[Gentlemanloser]

Just like everything else in the codex, with their mother :cussing minds.

 

LoL!

 

The point is, as the SS DS isn't stated as being by Teleport, then they get no benefit form the Libby, SR or Purgation Teleport Homers.

 

Win...

 

Why no locator beacons?

[Drachnon]

Actually the entry on teleport homers specifically states it works for strike squads, interceptor squads and models in terminator armour so I don't get your complaint.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not being able to purchase the codex yet, I've not seen the wargear entries.

 

Glad that the Teleport homer is specified to work with those. That makes a little more sense.

[boreas]

I'd like for GW to realease real desing notes (not those astronomican piece of crap!). I'd like to know what they really wanted to do with this or that army. The way I see it, they purposefully made GKs fragile to shooting. If you look at CC, we've got the best termies, hands down. A squad of 5 basic NFS termies can make 6-7 St4 hits before combats even starts (SBs, remember THSS termies don't shoot at all!), then possibly 15 St5 attacks at Ini (with grenades!), then we take 4++ saves (instead of 3++, no much worst, really...).

 

I think GW didn't want GKs hiding in LRs or behind storm shield. You want to "kite" you opponent while gunning him down with St5 Stormbolters (remember, you GKSS trooper is a better shooter by far than those shooty guy... the Tau, while being able to wack head in CC against pretty much everything except dedicated CC units)? Then find cover. I think this codex is meant to have us stop playing "point-and-click" marine (move forward THSS termies, shoot whatever ML you have, assault with THSS termies, rinse, repeat). We're meant to play them like Eldars, where the movement phase become the single most important phase in the game.

 

Phil

[skryeguy1]

I'm not sure what type of tables you kids play on but around these parts we use appropriate 25% coverage; which means my terminators will always be receiving 4+ or 3+ cover when the game calls for it and it matters. I simply don't see a need for mass storm shields.

[Gentlemanloser]

Flamestorm Cannons (Edit: obviously not much of a concern for Termies, but my Purifier fear them! B))? Or Perils of the Warp.

[boreas]

I think peril of the warp is the main concern here (3+ being immensely better than 5+ here). But then again, a GK player should have to think twice before gambling a 20-50 pts model! Most psychic powers can give a decisive advantage, especially in the case of mass force weapons (my best friends Nids Warriors, Ork Nobz and TWC are trempling!). But, hey, sorcery shouldn't be trifled with B)

 

Phil

[Irbis]

Please allow me a moment to point out that, after months of vocal hoping that we don't end up as simply "Grey Marines" and all the jokes about "Marneus Greygar", we are now complaining that we don't have access to the options that normal Marines do.

 

Love it or hate it, I still appreciate the irony.

 

Ah, the internal contradictions in bashing. Who cares if it is justified, it's all right as long as it's against Ward, right? B)

 

Sorry, no offence meant, I just overdosed on fanon.

 

I could have pointed that SW Terminators don't get Storm Shields, either, no dedicated CC Dreadnoughts, no Sternguard ammo, no good deepstrike unit/options... So, really, the question in the thread should be - why GK aren't Codex Chapter like SM or BA? ^_^

[Iron Lord]

Wolf guard in terminator armour do get Storm Shields.

[Irbis]

Wolf guard in terminator armour do get Storm Shields.

 

Yes. But these cost so much no one takes them. No one I ever saw, at least. Not a single list, either, or SW guide features them. The only place I've ever seen SS used in SW Codex was on Lone Wolf or HQ minis, because paying 70 points for Hammernator cripples your army.

 

So, for all intents and purposes, GK have almost as much SS as SW.

 

I think GW didn't want GKs hiding in LRs or behind storm shield. You want to "kite" you opponent while gunning him down with St5 Stormbolters (remember, you GKSS trooper is a better shooter by far than those shooty guy... the Tau, while being able to wack head in CC against pretty much everything except dedicated CC units)? Then find cover. I think this codex is meant to have us stop playing "point-and-click" marine (move forward THSS termies, shoot whatever ML you have, assault with THSS termies, rinse, repeat). We're meant to play them like Eldars, where the movement phase become the single most important phase in the game.

 

That might very well be the case. SM are mechanized infantry, they have time for infiltration/assaults. Using this analogy, GK are true paratroopers - constantly on the move, fragile because of their method of insertion that doesn't allow for taking much heavy equipment, they're outnumbered so they have to be constantly on the move suppressing the enemy with superior firepower, not slowly advancing carefully shielding themselves with Storm Shields... because the enemy they are designed to face might suddenly appear behind their backs, making SS useless.

 

You know, 81st Airborne might complain they don't have so many Abrams tanks or IFVs like 1st Armoured, but all other divisions envy their helicopter support and number of support weapons, making it a nice analogy

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes. But these cost so much no one takes them. No one I ever saw, at least. Not a single list, either, or SW guide features them.

 

But if you had a Wolf Guard Psychic, the cost (for a single mini) would be justified. Especially if said single mini's power/s effect the whole squad.

 

no good deepstrike unit/options...

 

Well, they do get Drop Pods. And you can stick a Relentless Logan in one with a 4 MM Long Fang sqaud.

 

And while he's not CC orientated, at least Bjorn has AV13. ^_^

[Irbis]

But if you had a Wolf Guard Psychic, the cost (for a single mini) would be justified. Especially if said single mini's power/s effect the whole squad.

 

That's why I said HQ units :cuss

 

Still, while having SS on Sergeant would be nice, the only place I can see it on is Terminator/Paladin sergeants... In which case, it does nothing, as all have the same LD. You'd be better off buying 75% of the next Terminator instead for that cost, IMHO.

 

Well, they do get Drop Pods. And you can stick a Relentless Logan in one with a 4 MM Long Fang sqaud. ;)

 

I said good, haven't I? :huh:

 

And while he's not CC orientated, at least Bjorn has AV13. ;)

 

Eh, yes, but he also costs more than 2 normal Dreads, which kills his usefulness. More than Land Raider, while having little of it's firepower, transport capacity or survivability. No, Wolves are just as crippled in SS/CC/Dread department as GK, IMHO, yet, they are not weak army.

[Hackbar]

Hmm. Perhaps my desire for storm shields is skewed by the fact that my most common opponent is Tau. You don't 'kite' a bunch of AP1 and 2 weapons in an army that can turn off your cover save. That doesn't work very well. When faced with overwhelming ranged firepower, you have to close with the enemy and cut them up in assault. Grey Knights TDA units seem to have been deliberately gimped in their ability to do so. I'm fine with the design decision that we don't want 30 2+/++ bodies marching across the field in a line abreast killing everything they touch. That's boring. But I don't like the idea that our big scary units are designed to melt under plasma fire even more readily than many other deathstar units.

[krewl]

No DoA/Teleport Assault? OK, then where's my Drop Pod?

 

Got a Storm Raven? OK, then where's my tasty CC dread to go in the back?

 

All our Dreads are Psychic? Ok, then why can't they be upgraded to Mastery level 2/3? And why can't they use *any of the Librarian powers?*

 

And where's our AV13 Dread? Ironclad, check. Bjorn, check. Furisos, check. GK? Sorry...

Please allow me a moment to point out that, after months of vocal hoping that we don't end up as simply "Grey Marines" and all the jokes about "Marneus Greygar", we are now complaining that we don't have access to the options that normal Marines do.

 

Love it or hate it, I still appreciate the irony. :D

Love this one, thumbs up for you.

 

I for one do not miss the dedicated transport option, in essence it is only usefull for rock type armies as listed, you'd lose hard to severall armies, while others would roll over without a chance. Not the type of game I'd like to play. GK are balanced well (Except for deamons, warp quake kills 90% of deamon armies as they just can not come near you (Where a lot of the usefull deamons need to make their points usefull.))

 

I'm not going for the TL;DR comment, let's just say I find GK refreshingly different form my DA/normal marines. Matters of taste, so lets not debate to hard on who is wrong with this issue. :D