How are you playing out the force weapons?

[Liberame]

So after reading over the rulebook with some friends, a psyker can take a psychic test and use his force weapon to inflict instant death to ONE model. Brotherhood of Psykers rule states that if the first one passes, then everyone else passes. So are you just saying that out of the 10 man squad, they inflict 10 instant deaths, or are you rolling to hit and wound with each individual grey knight to see if they can do their instant death?

 

Afterall one GK might fail to hit or wound with all of his attacks, yet the GK next to him might hit and wound with all of his attacks but can still only inflict instant death on ONE model.

 

How are you all playing it out?

 

This was asked before having a copy of the Codex, the newer question that is being debated is on page 3

[Aidoneus]

The rule in the GK codex is very specific, and specific codex rules always override BRB rules. Thus, as the codex says, every single hit inflicted deals Instant Death.

[hmk17]

The entry under Nemesis Force Weapons is VERY clear about how it works. Any unsaved wounds the squad inflicts can become Instant Death.

[Doomaflatchi]

...or, worded another way: "Why, yes! I would LOVE to face your Ork Biker-Nob list!" ;)

[Validar]

your tyranid warriors list... Okay!

 

 

Either way it is a bit sad how the force weapon fact will faceroll some lists to hell, never letting them stand a chance, whereas it will be more or less useless the rest of the time. Had the same issue with some of the deamon-specific rules in the last dex, only that they were much more limited :/

[thor1234]

well I have a small question to add to this little topic.......

can an IC say a GM inflict as many ID attacks as he inflicts wounds or is he limited to his mastery level?

the wargear entry seems to suggest not, but i though id ask......

[Aidoneus]

Good question. As far as I can tell, the IC's force weapon should work like a normal force weapon, as described in the BRB. My reasoning is thus: The description of the Nemesis Force Weapon first says to treat it like a normal force weapon as in the BRB, then mentions a squad of GKs with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, and then talks about the unique ways Nemesis Force Weapons differ from normal force weapons, all the while referring to the "unit." It seems clear to me that these unique rules are part of the special circumstances involved in the squad-based Brotherhood of Psykers rules, and so will not apply to Independent Characters.

[SamaNagol]

But an IC's forceweapon is activated just like the unit's if he joins. In respect to his NFW he is just another model in the unit

[RedemptionNL]

But an IC's forceweapon is activated just like the unit's if he joins. In respect to his NFW he is just another model in the unit

 

The Nemesis Force Weapon rule specifically mentions that attached Independent Characters need to activate seperatly.

[Brother Nihm]

your tyranid warriors list... Okay!

 

 

Either way it is a bit sad how the force weapon fact will faceroll some lists to hell, never letting them stand a chance, whereas it will be more or less useless the rest of the time. Had the same issue with some of the deamon-specific rules in the last dex, only that they were much more limited :/

True, and as if Tyranid Warriors didn't already have so much going against them. But at least Nob lists have a hard counter now.

[RedemptionNL]

Thunderwolf Cavalry also love mass force weapons!

[number6]

Personally, I find the rules for NFWs to be confusing. The rules paragraph starts by saying that all NFWs are FWs as detailed in the main rulebook. That would mean that not every wound causes instant death. It actually means that every GK model that inflicts an unsaved wound can cause Instant Death on exactly one of the enemies they wounded.

 

I'm certain that GW doesn't intend for us players to roll attacks and wounds for each individual GK model and track how each wound gets allocated, etc. But I don't think it's unreasonable to think, based on how NFWs are apparently FWs just like the main rulebook says, that the max number of ID wounds that can be inflicted is equal to the number of attacking models in the GK unit.

 

And yet, just a few sentences later, it does indeed say that every wound inflicted by NFWs causes ID.

 

Yet more slipshod rules verbiage from GW. Either they are exactly like normal FWs -- as initially stated -- or they are different in that every wound inflicted causes ID. It can't be both at the same time, yet this is exactly what the rules are saying. :P Is it a case of codex overriding BRB? Hard to say, since the rules don't indicate that this behavior is an exception to the normal FW rules. It just states it as if this is the normal way of FWs, which we all know it isn't.

 

I bring this up because my prediction is that this will have to be FAQ'd. And I suspect that it will be FAQ'd such that the maximum number of ID wounds will be made equivalent to the number of attacking GK models. I think GW will recognize this inconsistency and go the conservative route.

 

I could be wrong, of course. :lol: And clearly this is a conservative interpretation of the muddled rules. It's just that there is no clear way to assert definitively that EVERY wound will cause ID despite that exact verbiage being present. ;)

 

Just bringing this up as a discussion point. I will probably actually play it as every wound really does cause ID because, in the long run, it just isn't going to matter much. (And I do think that's the slightly stronger indication from the rules text as it currently exists.) There will be a few rare situations where you're up against a massive pile of multi-wound models ... but not that often, really.

[IraSummers]

your tyranid warriors list... Okay!

 

 

Either way it is a bit sad how the force weapon fact will faceroll some lists to hell, never letting them stand a chance, whereas it will be more or less useless the rest of the time. Had the same issue with some of the deamon-specific rules in the last dex, only that they were much more limited :/

True, and as if Tyranid Warriors didn't already have so much going against them. But at least Nob lists have a hard counter now.

 

Hopefully I can finally reduce the use of the Nob bikers with painboy, warboss, etc that destroys most everyone in our local meta. I am looking forward to my pruifiers being charged the first time by them and then killing most of them at all instant gibing. Still going to need support to kill a large enough deathstar like this reliably. Either Xenos inq with PA, PW, and Rad grenades or Lib so I can get the wounding on 3+ or even 2+ and still have the squads test ready to go.

[DV8]

Personally, I find the rules for NFWs to be confusing. The rules paragraph starts by saying that all NFWs are FWs as detailed in the main rulebook. That would mean that not every wound causes instant death. It actually means that every GK model that inflicts an unsaved wound can cause Instant Death on exactly one of the enemies they wounded.

 

And yet, just a few sentences later, it does indeed say that every wound inflicted by NFWs causes ID.

 

Yet more slipshod rules verbiage from GW. Either they are exactly like normal FWs -- as initially stated -- or they are different in that every wound inflicted causes ID. It can't be both at the same time, yet this is exactly what the rules are saying. :down: Is it a case of codex overriding BRB? Hard to say, since the rules don't indicate that this behavior is an exception to the normal FW rules. It just states it as if this is the normal way of FWs, which we all know it isn't.

 

It begins that way to establish that Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons despite the added "Nemesis" in the name.

 

That automatically establishes that the weapons are Power Weapons (thus can be combined with another close combat weapon for +1 attack, unless otherwise, for example with two-handed weapons, or Daemon Hammers which are treated as Thunder Hammers).

It also establishes that given a successful psychic test, the wielder of said Nemesis Force Weapon can "activate" the weapon to inflict instant death on one model who suffered an unsaved wound from the weapon (establishes usage by Independent Characters because they lack the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule).

 

Before even continuing further, we've established those basic facts (and that every Grey Knight is armed with one, regardless of variation). In that regard, certain specific Nemesis Force Weapons create further modifications that affect the way the user attacks (or the benefits they gain), but they still remain Force Weapons.

 

The rule then goes on to create an addendum to units who wield Nemesis Force Weapons. Because of the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, units of Grey Knights cannot individually cast psychic powers; a unit rolls one psychic test (off the Justicar/Keeper of the Flame, or random model if either/or are dead/nonexistent (say combat squad'd away)) when attempting to cast a power, and they may cast one power per turn.

 

So for example a unit casting Hammerhand only rolls 1 psychic test, and should it be successful, every model reaps the benefits and gets +1 Strength. And in this instance, with regards to their Nemesis Force Weapons, a unit can attempt to "activate" their Nemesis Force Weapons and, should it be successful, every model in the unit will have "active" Force Weapons.

 

Finally, it creates a further addendum that not only does every member of the unit have an "active" Force Weapon, but that instead of the usual "inflict instant death on one enemy model who suffers an unsaved wound", for the sake of simplicity (and fluff, Grey Knights are each armed with a Nemesis Force Weapon specifically attuned to them, creating a unique bond between warrior and weapon; additionally a group of Grey Knight psykers pool their collective energy into one casting, allowing for a more powerful "activation" of their Force Weapons than allowed for by an individual mind), every wound inflicted by said Grey Knight unit inflicts Instant Death.

 

So a unit of 5 Grey Knight Terminators that charges, for example, a unit of 10 Tyranid Warriors, "activates" their Nemesis Force Weapons, and deals 10 wounds, they would kill outright every single one of those Warriors.

 

I bring this up because my prediction is that this will have to be FAQ'd. And I suspect that it will be FAQ'd such that the maximum number of ID wounds will be made equivalent to the number of attacking GK models. I think GW will recognize this inconsistency and go the conservative route.

 

I could be wrong, of course. :lol: And clearly this is a conservative interpretation of the muddled rules. It's just that there is no clear way to assert definitively that EVERY wound will cause ID despite that exact verbiage being present. :lol:

 

And yet that's exactly how it's written...

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

Thanks for the clarification guys, looks like nid warriors are going to need lash whips on em now.

[hmk17]

yup.

 

Even then, Tyranids force us to test on a 9 or 10 (depending on the unit). Decent odds for us.

[Grey Mage]

So a unit of 5 Grey Knight Terminators that charges, for example, a unit of 10 Tyranid Warriors, "activates" their Nemesis Force Weapons, and deals 10 wounds, they would kill outright every single one of those Warriors.

Ok, Im good with what your saying right up tell this. Because this, is not how FWs work.

 

A force weapon allows you to retroactively inflict instant death on a model youve already wounded earlier that turn. What this means is, that you have to resolve all the wounds- including wound allocation and saves- before you activate the psychic power that this weapon gives you, wich is the part that inflicts instant death. This is because force weapons dont work on the wound- you have to wait tell saves are made, at wich point you should have already allocated, and the procedure for wounds is very straightforward.

 

This means, if a unit of GKs charges a unit of 10 warriors, and does 10 wounds it couldnt kill 10 warriors- it would kill 4, maybe 5 if special weapons were in the unit. Why? Because we would first have to condense the wounds. 10 identical warriors will take 3 models dying at 3 wounds a piece, and then afterwards you can instant-death the remaining model.

 

Its actually much stronger against Nob Bikerz and TWC where people are more prone to using wound-allocation shenanigans.

 

It should be noted, that if a Librarian splits his attacks between two units- say two on the warriors and two on the tyrant- he can instant death anything he wounds, but only one of those things. Because of this, it could be interpreted that the most a GK squad can ID is a single multi-wound model each player turn, no matter how many things they hit. Id have to take a closer look at the brotherhood of psyckers rule to be sure though.

[SamaNagol]

By my reading of how the GK NFW work and wound allocation this evening, when you cause 10 wounds in CC against 10 models with 2 wounds each, you don't cause 2 wounds each on 5 of them. You must allocate them evenly. So you could indeed kill 10

[Grey Mage]

By my reading of how the GK NFW work and wound allocation this evening, when you cause 10 wounds in CC against 10 models with 2 wounds each, you don't cause 2 wounds each on 5 of them. You must allocate them evenly. So you could indeed kill 10

Thats not how wound allocation works Sama- identical models must have their wounds condensed and removed as whole models. Unless each of those 10 was unique, youd get fewer.

 

Unless you can elaborate further?

[KnowThyEnemy]

you cannot stack wounds that inflict instant death. were you to fail your psychic test, then yes you would allocate the wounds as normal, but if you were to pass your test then all 10 would die (in the above scenario). i believe its mentioned in the example in the brb when talking about distribution of wounds (no page number, at work)

 

for example, you shoot 10 lascannons (cute little space monkeys :)) at said group of 10 warriors. you hit and wounded with all of them. because they are instant death wounds, you must distribute them evenly across the squad, with each warrior taking 1 of the wounds (and dying after failed cover saves if they have them). they cannot be stacked to "save" warriors.

 

new example: if the previous squad had 5 lascannons and 10 stormbolter shots (space monkies and acolytes) and hit and wounded the same warrior squad with all of them, the tyranid player would lose 5 warriors (assuming no cover save of course) and have to make 10 saves for the remaining warriors, possibly losing another 3 and taking a wound on another 1 (again assuming no wound allocation shenanegins, which are limited with warriors due to all of the brood having to take basically the same weapons, heavy weapon excluded)

[RamrodMC]

Adding to KnowThyEnemy's post, this is taken verbatim from the BRB (in the section on Wound Allocation, no less):

 

... if one of the three unsaved wounds on the normal Nobz caused instant death, the player would remove one unwounded Nob for that wound and then another normal Nob for the remaining two unsaved wounds.

 

I don't understand how this is even an issue. The text describing Instant Death is 100% clear that victims of ID are immediately removed as casualties, not "when their wounds run out" because then that wouldn't be Instant Death, it would be normal wounding.

[Brovius]

Thanks for the clarification guys, looks like nid warriors are going to need lash whips on em now.

Lash whips won't do much. Synapse creatures are Psykers for rules purposes, and all Grey Knights come with Psyk-out grenades for free.

Also, equip them with Halberds. Lash whips are applied before all modifiers, so GKs with halberds will be I3 against the Tyranid Warriors' I1 for the first round of combat.

It's lame, i know. I'm not really affected by this though, as I'm the gaming group's only Tyranid player AND Grey Knights player :)

[KnowThyEnemy]

sorry, unrelated to the topic, but the previous post had me thinking about the psyk-out grenades. what do they do exactly? make any enemy psykers in combat strike at I1 or just those in b2b?

[RedemptionNL]

So a unit of 5 Grey Knight Terminators that charges, for example, a unit of 10 Tyranid Warriors, "activates" their Nemesis Force Weapons, and deals 10 wounds, they would kill outright every single one of those Warriors.

Ok, Im good with what your saying right up tell this. Because this, is not how FWs work.

 

It seems quirky, yes, as you need an unsaved wound to be able to make the psychic test, and unsaved wounds are indeed after wound allocation and saves are done. But on the other hand, if you have different Initiative values in the squad, you take the test after the first unsaved wounds have been caused. All wounds caused from there on inflict Instant Death before allocation it seems.

 

So, say you have the following Purifier squad, which seems like a popular build:

Knight of the Flame with Daemonhammer

5 Purifiers with Halberds

4 Purifiers with Psycannons/Incinerators/Psilencers

 

Now, this squad attacks a unit of 10 equally equipped multiwound T5 models, which have 3 wounds each. We'll disregard wounds inflicted by this squad for this example.

The Purifiers with the Halberds strike first, and after their To Hit and To Wound (and possible invulnerable saves), they managed to inflict 7 wounds. As these are yet to be activated, the opposing player removes 2 models and places the remaining wound on one of the remaining models. The Purifiers take a psychic test to activate their Nemesis weapons, which they pass. The model which has a wound on him now suffers Instant Death and is removed.

The 4 purifiers with the heavy ranged weapons strike next, and manage to inflict another 2 wounds after armour saves. These are put on a model.

Finally the Knight of the Flame swings his Daemonhammer and manages to inflict two wounds. As the Nemesis weapons are already activated, both wounds inflict Instant Death, and the opposing player has to remove 2 unwounded models.

 

So in total 5 models are killed, and one is left with one wound remaining. If the squad of multiwound models were all equiped differently, they would have 9 casualties.

 

Yay for finally something that better against unique equipped multi-wound models I guess? :)

[RedemptionNL]

Ack, reread the rules for model removal with instant death wounds again, seems I was mistaken, you do indeed remove one model for every instant death wound, disregard my last post. :(