How are you playing out the force weapons?

[Brovius]

sorry, unrelated to the topic, but the previous post had me thinking about the psyk-out grenades. what do they do exactly? make any enemy psykers in combat strike at I1 or just those in b2b?

 

They make all Psykers and Daemons in the assaulted unit I1 for that round of combat

[KnowThyEnemy]

freakin awesome. just imagine the hilarity if you will...termies with nades and banner vs. swarm lord. o how i will chuckle :D. and yea the rules for distributing ID wounds makes our shenanigens just that much better.

[Grey Mage]

you cannot stack wounds that inflict instant death. were you to fail your psychic test, then yes you would allocate the wounds as normal, but if you were to pass your test then all 10 would die (in the above scenario). i believe its mentioned in the example in the brb when talking about distribution of wounds (no page number, at work)

Heres the problem guys.

 

Thats not how a force weapon works.

 

A force weapon does not inflict instant death. A force weapon is a power weapon that gives you access to a psychic power.

 

That power does not cause your wounds to inflict instant death.

 

What it does is causes a single model to suffer instant death. In order to cast this power on a target you have to have already done a wound to it in that close combat round.

 

Since ALL wounds at a single initiative happen simultaneously, you have to have assigned each and every wound done at that I in order to have any of them be eligible to be targeted by the power. Part of that is the natural condensing of wounds. This means that in the case of multi-wound models you have to remove the whole models first.

 

This may mean that there are no models on the board that have suffered an unsaved wound but not removed as a casualty after having been wounded by a force weapon. In such a case your simply unable to target a random member of the unit because the powers requirements wont be met.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Thats not how a force weapon works.

 

A force weapon does not inflict instant death. A force weapon is a power weapon that gives you access to a psychic power.

You are correct, a standard force weapon does not cause instant death.

 

However, as per the rules in the Wargear section, an activated Nemesis Force Weapon DOES.

 

"If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death."

 

That is abundantly clear and cannot be interpreted in any other fashion. Ergo, 10 wounds against a 10 model biker-nob squad is 10 dead bikers. Kinda cheesy as all get out, but them's the rules.

 

EDIT: I also think there's an argument that a GK Character is a unit of 1 model, ergo his "units" wounds all cause instant death just like the other units of GK ;)

[KnowThyEnemy]

agree to the first part and disagree with the second. theres no argument for the IC being 1 model. they are made to test seperately for a reason when they are in a squad. i understand where your coming from grey mage, and there is a touch of grey in all rules conversations nowadays, but as nicole quoted, ALL wounds cause ID. wounds suffered by a model are applied after failed saves. it goes in the order as stated:

10 tyranid models (identical models for simplicity sake and to prove my point. wound distibution shenanegins is what we really hurt, but i digress) take 10 wounds

they fail all 10 saves (in this case power weapon wounds, so no saves)

normally this means you lose 3 models and 1 takes a wound correct?

BUT WAIT!! you take your psychic test BEFORE the removal of models for that round of combat.

you pass your test (yay!). that means those 10 normal wounds are now 10 ID wounds, thus take out 10 warriors (again, cannot stack ID wounds unless you run out of models to distribute to)

when you distribute wounds on to models, each model is assigned a wound (owners choice). this wound allocation is based on what equipment they carry (hence why we can assign excess wounds onto regular grey knights to try and save our precious justicars and psycannons). the reason you consolidate wounds onto multi wound models with the same equipment is to keep people from spreading wounds out among identical models. it does not mean that those 4 warriors in the initial example took 10 saves and failed 10, it means 10 warriors took 10 saves and failed. when that round was over, you would be removing 10 wounds worth of models (i.e. 3 warriors and a wound on another)

[Decoy]

Think they got you here, Grey. NFW don't act as Force Weapons per se, they just cause ID.

 

That said, it's just another reason I'm tricking out stuff with Talismans and running 4 Rune Priests (or 3/Njal). No better way to shut down a psychic army.

[Inquisitor Fox]

agree to the first part and disagree with the second. theres no argument for the IC being 1 model.

Although in terms of targetting attacks and directing attacks to pick out the Independant Character, in combat they are treated as a seperate unit unless they are affected by the Retinue rule where they are treated as a squad upgrade. So while they are one unit in terms of leadership tests and fleeing combat if they are joined, they are also two units in terms of allocating attacks (in both directions). It gets fuzzy, which is why we need an FAQ on the issue.

 

I'm not even suggesting that I'll necessarily win the argument, but there's enough reasons there to argue a case that there are two units of Nemesis Force Weapons in play: the IC unit, and the Squad unit. I think it is definately clear though that a Nemesis Force Weapon is NOT a standard Force Weapon. Indeed, there is no indication that the line quoting Instant Death applies only to a unit of psykers... it's just one long slew of exception to the rules from the main book. We're probably meant to imply that it is, but the wording leaves something to be desired :D

[KnowThyEnemy]

i think another funny argument is WHEN do you take the psychic test for the wounds your grey knights are causing. with the ability to have multiple levels of I models in a single unit, at what point are you taking that test? after the highest I value? after the lowest? If you take it after the highest I, does that mean all the wounds that go later in the I order still cause ID or no? im just putting this out there to be a needle and hopefully no one argues the fact that only the highest I wounds caused will count as ID because you took the test after them and the rest of the wounds came later. I will laugh at that person and go about my business slaughtering his warriors :)

[Inquisitor Fox]

The rules specifically cover that point :)

 

"If a unit is striking at different initiative values..."

 

Essentially you take the test the first time a wound is caused and the whole squad is bound by that result.

[SamaNagol]

NFW do not activate until after the first Initiative round of wounds have been allocated.

 

So if you have Halberds in the squad and cause a single wound, you would test to activate the NFW. Then everything striking subsequently (Swords, Staves and Hammers) would be an Instant Death wound.

 

Reason to include at least 1 Halberd in every squad?

[KnowThyEnemy]

ah i see. thanks for some pre-codex insight :). id say halberds are useful for the +2 I (most obvious statement ever) but getting the psychic test off at a higher I value has no game advantage since taking it after the swords go off has the same effect (assuming no halberds or higher I characters of course)

[Wastelander]

I don't know if I can't understand proper English today, or is it something else.

 

What does it mean that a psyker can (quote from the Rulebook) use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound...?

 

It means that any model wounded or just one of the wounded models is IDed?

 

 

I'm quite confused now...

 

 

And to all who overlooked this : using the FW is like using a psychic power. This quite means that you can't use Hammerhand and then use your FWs.

[mukslinger]

remember, what ever way you rule these force weapons, tyranid boneswords and the daemon soul devourer must be ruled the same way. all three have a chance to cause instant death effects after an unsaved wound has been suffered.

 

so that tyranid warrior squad we are so happy to send thru the ringer, will, in turn do the same to our paladins, or any multiwound unit.

 

two points of view as I can understand it are vaguely as follows

 

situation A: models do not actually suffer wounds until after casualties are removed, the arguement doesnt get anymore more complex than that. 4 nfw's wounds on a unit of 8 raveners, 1 ravener dies and 1 may die to instant death after the grey knight makes a check.

 

situation B: a little more complex. wounds must be allocated so that each model suffers at least one wound before it gets a second, this applies even to multi-wound models. The fact that like-models pool their saves and you must remove whole models during the remove casualties step is irrelevant. During the remove casualties step, it tells you "once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds the unit has suffered,". In order determine the number of unsaved wounds, they must exist, and we also know that we allocated these wounds to specific models earlier. therefore, each of these models, have suffered unsaved wounds before the remove casualties step. Again, the fact that you must remove whole models during the remove casualties step is irrelevant. Instant death effects do not have to come from wounds alone, they can have any source, this is by written intent "this rule is designed to stop players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a model that has suffered instant death anyway". therefore, wounds can not be placed on models that suffered instant death. The source of instant death, or how or why the check is made would not matter, all that matters is that models have suffered instant death. With the same example as in situation A, 4 nfw's wounds on a unit of 8 raveners, if the check is successful 4 raveners will die.

 

the bonesword has the exact same timing as the nfw's: the differences between them, such as the attacker makes a leadership check vs defender makes a leadership check or one leadership check vs multiple leadership checks, are irrelevant to the case.

 

so what ever way the force weapons are ruled, be prepared for the boneswords to follow suit. i'm curious as to how it will turn out.

[Grey Mage]

Thats not how a force weapon works.

 

A force weapon does not inflict instant death. A force weapon is a power weapon that gives you access to a psychic power.

You are correct, a standard force weapon does not cause instant death.

 

However, as per the rules in the Wargear section, an activated Nemesis Force Weapon DOES.

 

"If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death."

 

That is abundantly clear and cannot be interpreted in any other fashion. Ergo, 10 wounds against a 10 model biker-nob squad is 10 dead bikers. Kinda cheesy as all get out, but them's the rules.

 

EDIT: I also think there's an argument that a GK Character is a unit of 1 model, ergo his "units" wounds all cause instant death just like the other units of GK :)

Interesting, I dont have access to the codex at the moment and was thrown by peoples assertion that it functioned as a force weapon.

 

Since it does nothing of the kind I am of course entirely incorrect- sorry about the hullabaloo.

[mukslinger]

yep, it does appear that each of their wounds will cause models to suffer instant death, if the check succeeds. nice, eh.

[Iron Man I]

So let me get this straight, I cause 10 wounds on a 10 nob biker unit. Say all are unsaved, you would then allocate wounds (iirc Nob bikers are 2 wounds each) and the ork player stacks 2 wounds on 5 bikers. You then roll and pass the psychic test and activate the weapon. Bang those 5 Nobs are dead, but since the wounds were allocated already, the other five bikers havent been "wounded" and wouldnt be instadeathed correct? Or do you basicly re allocate the wounds and wipe out the unit?

[KnowThyEnemy]

after you suffer the wounds, you allocate the wounds to models based on their equipment/uniqueness or whatever youd like to call it. each model is given a wound until every model in the unit has one, and then you start again by giving a second wound onto each model etc etc etc.

 

you can't stack multiple wounds onto models until every other model in the unit has one. so your above example is flawed in that sense

[KnowThyEnemy]

just realised that first sentence may be a bit unclear. the following is the course of action:

roll to hit

roll to wound

allocate wounds based upon equipment/uniqueness

take saving throws

take psychic test

remove models (either ID for a passed test or by combining wounds on like models)

 

for example, a nob unit has 5 nobs with choppas and 2 with power claws, all have cybork bodies

you do 10 wounds to this unit

the ork player decides to put 8 wounds on the choppa nobs (essentially 1 wound on 2 of them and 2 wounds on 3 of them) and 2 wounds on the power claws (1 on each).

he takes his saving throws (5+ invul) and he passes 3 for the choppa nobs and 1 for the power claws. ordinarily you would put 1 wound on a power claw nob for the 1 you failed and place 5 wounds on the choppa nobs for the 5 you failed, which would remove 2 choppa nobs and place 1 wound on another. however, after they take their saving throws but BEFORE you consolidate the wounds and remove models, you take your psychic test.

 

you pass (yay!). now those 5 wounds he failed for the choppa nobs are ID wounds and the same for the 1 wound on the power claws. you cannot stack multiple wounds that are ID to prevent the removal of models. this means 5 choppa nobs are removed for the 5 ID wounds and 1 power claw is removed for the 1 ID wound.

 

this leaves him with 1 nob with a power claw, NOT 2 nobs with power claws and 3 choppa nobs

[Sabadin]

Thanks for the clarification guys, looks like nid warriors are going to need lash whips on em now.

Synapse creatures are Psykers for rules purposes

 

Ummm, since when? Only 4 units in that book with "Psyker" in their rules, warriors aren't one of them. Maybe confusing it with the 4e book when synapse was a passive power for some units?

[Dilgar]

Yup, that is how everyone around here interprets the NFW. 10 wounds = 10 dead models.

 

It really is quite clearly written, and ever so lovely :P ...my friends do...wolf riders didn´t take it so well :P

[Grimtooth]

Yup, that is how everyone around here interprets the NFW. 10 wounds = 10 dead models.

 

It really is quite clearly written, and ever so lovely :P ...my friends do...wolf riders didn´t take it so well :P

 

Yea, TWM chill in the back lines for a bit while massed Long Fang fire now softens up all those NFW units.

[Decoy]

Aye, BR. I played a 2500 against GK yesterday, a Pally Troop list. Crushed 'em to a man and only lost two Lone Wolves and a squad of Greys. Greys and Long Fangs wreck up GKs something fierce.

[chaplainmeliadus]

EDIT: I also think there's an argument that a GK Character is a unit of 1 model, ergo his "units" wounds all cause instant death just like the other units of GK :P

 

Actually no. Characters don't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule (Don't kill me if they actually do :lol: ) so would use their force weapon normally.

[Gaz1858]

If a IC is attached to a unit then you can take one test to allow all models in the unit including the IC to activate their NFW. This allows you to use the IC's LD to activate the NFW then the units LD to use Hammerhand for example. +1S and ID.

 

If the IC is on his own and is mastery level 1 (GKGM for example) he can use either the NFW activation, Hammerhand or Psychic Communion in a single turn.

[Iron Man I]

you can't stack multiple wounds onto models until every other model in the unit has one. so your above example is flawed in that sense

Ah ok! Thanks then ;) Total brain fart on my part lol. Post in the am + cold medicine = fun times :P