How are you playing out the force weapons?

[DV8]

If a IC is attached to a unit then you can take one test to allow all models in the unit including the IC to activate their NFW. This allows you to use the IC's LD to activate the NFW then the units LD to use Hammerhand for example. +1S and ID.

 

If the IC is on his own and is mastery level 1 (GKGM for example) he can use either the NFW activation, Hammerhand or Psychic Communion in a single turn.

 

You cannot, actually. The Nemesis Force Weapon rule specifically states that the collective activation is achieved via the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule (which Independent Characters do not have). It then goes on to further specify that Independent Characters must activate their own Nemesis Force Weapons separately from the unit.

 

You would do it the other way around, using the Independent Character to activate Hammerhand and buffing the unit, while the unit activates their own Nemesis Force Weapons via Brotherhood of Psykers.

 

 

DV8

[mukslinger]

so the general idea is this, when attacking multi-wound units:

- wounds must be allocated so that each model suffers at least one wound before it gets a second, this applies even to multi-wound models. The facts that like-models pool their saves and you must remove whole models during the remove casualties step is irrelevant.

- At the start of the remove casualties step, it tells you "once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds the unit has suffered,". In order to determine the number of unsaved wounds, they must exist, and we also know that we allocated these wounds to specific models earlier. therefore, each of these models, have suffered unsaved wounds before the remove casualties step. Again, the facts that instant death effects are handled immediately and you must remove whole models during the remove casualties step is irrelevant.

 

which means the instant death from nemesis force weapons, boneswords, soul devourer, and direswords all trigger before removing casualties step, and they all dish out instant death like crazy, putting a serious hurt on any multiwound unit. although, who the heck equips direswords? lol.

 

Up to now, my group has been making these trigger after casualties are removed, as that is their definition of "suffered an unsaved wound." but this point of view may change now that these new grey knights exist.

[Tiggellius]

It's not clear in my mind "if a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take a psychic test to "activate" the NFW immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by a NFW that phase will be bound by the result of that psychic test".

My problem is let's assume we have a purifier squad with only halberds so being Ini 6. They are all striking at ini 6 and make 4 wounds for example, let's say they are facing a unit with 4 guy with the same setup. After allocation because they all have the same gears they must roll the saves at the same time. After those saves have been rolled, we got the first unsaved wound so we can activate the NFW but because we only have the halberds striking at the same time we can't use the NFW because it's "too late".

So in this case if I understand, in my normal GKSS, I must put one Halberd to strike first, then hopefully get an unsaved wound and activate the NFW for the rest of the squad in NFS and DH?

[Inquisitor Fox]

What it's saying is if I have a squad with halberds, normals, and hammers.. that the test happens after the first wounds (probably halberds) and that the whole squad is bound by that pass or fail.

 

Basically you attack until you get a wound, then you decide to try your test, and if the test succeeds that attack and any afterwards are bound by the same result.

 

If your whole squad has nothing but halberds, you active it them with the first wounds, and those wounds are bound by the test, easy peasy.

[Liberame]

Thanks for the clarification guys, looks like nid warriors are going to need lash whips on em now.

Lash whips won't do much. Synapse creatures are Psykers for rules purposes, and all Grey Knights come with Psyk-out grenades for free.

Also, equip them with Halberds. Lash whips are applied before all modifiers, so GKs with halberds will be I3 against the Tyranid Warriors' I1 for the first round of combat.

It's lame, i know. I'm not really affected by this though, as I'm the gaming group's only Tyranid player AND Grey Knights player :P

 

This is a common misconception, Synapse does NOT make you a psyker. You have to have the special rule Psyker, granted most synapse creatures are psykers, but Tyranid Warriors, and Tyranid Shrikes do NOT have the psyker rule on them. So even with halberds if the +2 is applied after whips, your still I3 to the Tyranid Warriors I4

[Liberame]

So a unit of 5 Grey Knight Terminators that charges, for example, a unit of 10 Tyranid Warriors, "activates" their Nemesis Force Weapons, and deals 10 wounds, they would kill outright every single one of those Warriors.

Ok, Im good with what your saying right up tell this. Because this, is not how FWs work.

 

A force weapon allows you to retroactively inflict instant death on a model youve already wounded earlier that turn. What this means is, that you have to resolve all the wounds- including wound allocation and saves- before you activate the psychic power that this weapon gives you, wich is the part that inflicts instant death. This is because force weapons dont work on the wound- you have to wait tell saves are made, at wich point you should have already allocated, and the procedure for wounds is very straightforward.

 

This means, if a unit of GKs charges a unit of 10 warriors, and does 10 wounds it couldnt kill 10 warriors- it would kill 4, maybe 5 if special weapons were in the unit. Why? Because we would first have to condense the wounds. 10 identical warriors will take 3 models dying at 3 wounds a piece, and then afterwards you can instant-death the remaining model.

 

Its actually much stronger against Nob Bikerz and TWC where people are more prone to using wound-allocation shenanigans.

 

It should be noted, that if a Librarian splits his attacks between two units- say two on the warriors and two on the tyrant- he can instant death anything he wounds, but only one of those things. Because of this, it could be interpreted that the most a GK squad can ID is a single multi-wound model each player turn, no matter how many things they hit. Id have to take a closer look at the brotherhood of psyckers rule to be sure though.

 

The example Grey Mage gave is actually correct. Normally, you would condense the wounds first and any remaining models you could try your force weapon to ID.

 

"Force weapons roll to hit as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn... If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value. (pg. 50 brb)"

 

The Brotherhood of Psyker rule doesn't change the method that this works except change the "against any one opponent" to "all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis Force Weapon that phase inflict instant death (pg. 54 c:dh)"

 

You could theoretically combine this to say "Nemesis Force weapons roll to hit as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker [unit] may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any that suffered an unsaved wound in that player turn... If the test is passed all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis Force Weapon that phase inflict instant death."

 

(Italics to reference for later)

 

Removing casualties in the assault phase references that you follow the same method from the shooting phase. Although the rule doesn't specifically state to condense wound allocation. It states "Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible... If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal. (pg. 26 brb)"

 

This is assuming of course the weapon causes instant death.

 

Instant Death states "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty (pg. 26)."

 

So the example of the Lascannon stated earlier is true since it is double toughness. Other weapons stated in different Codex's can also cause instant death. We also established earlier that the brb states that Force Weapons cause instant death as well.

 

But as Grey Mage has pointed out.

 

A force weapon allows you to retroactively inflict instant death on a model youve already wounded earlier that turn. turn, no matter how many things they hit.

 

He italics for emphasis.

 

If we look back at the brb on pg. 26, follow the italics example they give.

4 Ork Nobz total. 3 normal 1 Power Klaw for simplicity sake. They suffer 9 wounds, the example states that they all take 2 wounds each, and 1 additional wound is placed on a normal Ork Nob. The player takes 7 saving throws for the 3 normal Ork Nobs and fails 3. "He cannot put a single wound on each Nob, but must remove one model as well as recording that one normal Nob has suffered a wound (pg. 26 brb)." The example then states the Klaw Nob takes a wound cause he failed 1 out of 2 saves.

 

Lets replace all references in that example from Ork Nobs to Tyranid Warriors, and Power Klaw to Venom Cannon. And make the attacks Power Weapons. And lets change the amount of attacks because of the inclusion of Power Weapons.

4 Tyranid Warriors total, 3 normal 1 Venom Cannon for simplicity sake. They suffer 9 8 wounds, the example states that they all take 2 wounds each, and 1 additional wound is placed on a normal Tyranid Warrior. The player takes 7 6 saving throws for the 3 normal Tyranid Warriors and fails all because of power weapons. "He cannot put a single 2 wound on each Tyranid Warrior, but must remove one two model as well as recording that one normal Tyranid Warrior has suffered a wound. The example then states the Venom Canon Warrior takes 2 wound cause he failed all because of power weapons.

 

This would indicate that you have an unwounded Tyranid Warrior left and another with a Venom Cannon down to 1 wound. Unless the weapons caused instant death before we removed the Tyranid Warrior models, this would be the result of the combat. Now the psyker [unit] may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any that suffered an unsaved wound in that player turn... If the test is passed all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis Force Weapon that phase inflict instant death."

So the remaining Venom Cannon toting Tyranid Warrior would go byebye if you pass.

 

However... there is a way around this. If you read the Brotherhood of Psykers rule near the bottom it states. "If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the psychic test to "activate" the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused (pg. 54 c:dh)." So if you have 3 halberds and 2 swords in a 5 man squad. You could test on the halberd, "activating" your force weapons for the swords.

 

The Nemesis Force Weapon itself doesn't cause instant death, so you can stack wounds on like models for removing casualties. The "activated" power of Nemesis Force Weapons causes instant death retroactively. Yet remain active for all lower initiatives.

 

I'll use the previous example again to illustrate this.

 

@ Initiative 6

4 Tyranid Warriors total, 3 normal 1 Venom Cannon for simplicity sake. They suffer 9 3 wounds, the example states that they all take 2 1 wounds each [normal Tyranid Warrior], and 1 additional wound is placed on a normal Tyranid Warrior. The player takes 7 3 saving throws for the 3 normal Tyranid Warriors and fails all because of power weapons. "He cannot put a single wound on each Tyranid Warrior, but must remove one model as well as recording that one normal Tyranid Warrior has suffered a wound. The example then states the Venom Cannon Warrior takes 1 wound cause he failed all because of power weapons.

 

So now you are down to 2 unwounded Tyranid Warrior, and 1 unwounded Heavy Venom Cannon Warrior. However, now that you have "activated" your Nemesis Force Weapons. The remaining Nemesis Force Weapons will cause instant death.

 

@ Initiative 4

You only have to cause 3 wounds total to inflict instant death to the remaining Tyranid Warriors.

 

Wow that was a lot to type out. I tried to make it as easy to understand as possible. So 5 halberds might not be the way to go for Tyranid Warriors, but it is still nice against Nob Bikers who like to do wound allocation shenanigans.

 

/edit Added the rule for instant death for better clarification and also saw that RedemptionNL has already stated my own observations already, although in less detail.

 

 

/edit 2 tl;dr You can not make a person suffer instant death from unactivated Force Weapons before they are wounded, you condense wounds on like models and remove whole models, any remaining models "suffered a wound" and can be gibbed from Force Weapons.

[jakeraven]

i'm not sure if this is on topic, it kinda feels like it is but. in the wargear section under deamonbane, it say that any psyker or deamon that suffers unsaved wounds has to take a LD test or is removed from play. ok, does this affect my Libby Furioso Dreadnought, i think that the "suffers unsaved wonds" part makes it pretty clear but some guys in my gaming group are contesting it. any thoughts?

[Grey Mage]

A vehicle has no wounds and cannot take them.... so no, it couldnt be affected. Vehicles only take glancing and/or penetrating hits.

 

@Liberame- thank you, that is what I was saying, but without a copy of the codex in front of me I couldnt be sure I was right.

[Liberame]

Yeah I was in opposition of you at first Grey Mage, but since I do have a copy of the dex in front of me, I read, reread, and rereread the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and other mumbo jumbo and figured I'd turn it into an essay paper for people to read here lol

[KnowThyEnemy]

my rebudle to you is your quote used from the BRB, argument highlighted

 

"Force weapons roll to hit as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn... If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value. (pg. 50 brb)"

 

when you assign wounds, you assign it to models based on their equipment/gear/uniqueness/whatever. The normal order of things is, after wounds have been suffered by models, you condense wounds on to like models and remove models from play, agreed? however, as highlighted above, the psychic test is taken immediately after the model suffers an unsaved wound. that would be before you condense wounds on to like models.

 

just because all the dice are rolled at the same time doesn't mean you skip that step. dice are rolled in batches to speed things up.

 

for example, using your "everyone has halberds" example. if you took 1 grey knight out of 10. they were fighting 9 warriors (wargear doesn't matter for this example). grey knight #1 hits and wounds. tyranid #1 takes a wound. rinse and repeat for grey knights 2-10 and tyranids 2-9. you are applying wounds to individual models, using the wargear/equipment of each model to determine where the initial and excess wounds are placed.

 

i understand what your saying about the wound being retroactively ID, no arguments there. I am stating that you have your process reversed. the psychic test is taken after the model suffers a wound, not after you have removed models from play for that round of combat. removing models is the last step in combat for a specific I level. you then move to the next I value and repeat.

[Liberame]

One would assume by logic that each warrior would be taking a wound from each grey knight, however as I had quoted from the brb

 

Removing casualties in the assault phase references that you follow the same method from the shooting phase. Although the rule doesn't specifically state to condense wound allocation. It states "Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible... If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal. (pg. 26 brb)"

 

So yes your weapons ignore armour saves and you cause 7 wounds, you have determined the number of unsaved wounds, but no one has suffered them yet, you still have to distribute. The rule then says to condense wound allocation on identical multiple-wound models. Those are the models who are going to "suffer" the wounds. So you killed 2 warriors from them both suffering 3 wounds each, and another warrior has 1 wound suffered.

 

Even in the italicis portion, it explains it again by saying

 

"He cannot put a single wound on each Nob, but must remove one model as well as recording that one normal Nob has suffered a wound (pg. 26 brb)."

 

Therefore, 7 Tyranid Warriors did not suffer 1 wound each, and then 2 warriors are removed and one is injured. Because the weapons did not cause instant death initially by either being pre "activated" which you can't do until someone suffers a wound, or from double toughness weapons, identical multiple wound models can condense their wound allocation.

[KnowThyEnemy]

i enjoy you providing me with quotes, it saves me the effort when i get off work. thanks :). ok so where were we....

 

"Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible... If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal. (pg. 26 brb)"

 

as you said, you distribute the wounds equally and then condense to remove whole models where possible. however, in the above rule you quoted, it states that if there are unsaved wounds that cause ID, you remove 1 model for every ID wound and then proceed as normal. The rules for force weapons states "The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn".

 

therefore, when it has been determined that there are unsaved wounds (due to being power weapons, failed invul saves, etc etc), you take your psychic test. if you pass, those wounds, which have been distributed but not condensed as per both of the above rules, are now ID wounds.

 

order of events:

wound

distribute wounds

invul save

unsaved wounds

psychic test

 

if passed

all wounds are ID, remove 1 model for each wound

 

if failed

condense wounds, remove whole models if possible

 

you are combining distribute wounds and condense wounds into 1 step, which is not true at all. distribute wounds is done significantly earlier in the step than condensing of the wounds.

 

when your opponent tells he has done X wounds to you, you must distribute those X wounds as equally as possible among your models. as soon as you take your saving throw (and fail for the case at hand), they are now unsaved wounds. This is the trigger word for the force weapon: unsaved. again, removal of models is the very last step in the process/stage

[DV8]

Indeed, the condensing of wounds amongst identical models to remove whole models where possible (in the case of complex units with multiple-wound models) happens after rolling saves (if any apply). What happens in practice is that most players will allocate the wounds, and then simply roll all the saves for identical models at once. But that is not what is actually happening, it just so happens that the practice matches the rules to date.

 

However, against Grey Knights that will have to change.

 

Assume a unit of 10 Tyranid Warriors, equipped thusly, which we will apply through three situations:

 

Warrior 1, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 2, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 3, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 4, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 5, Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Warrior 6, Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Warrior 7, Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Warrior 8, Two Scything Talons

Warrior 9, Two Scything Talons

Warrior 10, Heavy Venom Cannon, Scything Talons

 

In the first situation, lets say the unit is charged in combat by a squad of Space Marines that manage to inflict an impossible 23 wounds onto the unit. Because there's a nice mix of equipment, we will have to apply some wound allocation before saves can be rolled. Because there are enough wounds to wrap around twice, 2 wounds will be allocated to every Warrior, leaving 3 extra wounds. Assuming at this point that it's turn 4, and we won't get much use out of the Heavy Venom Cannon, and because pairs of Scything Talons aren't as great in comparison to Rending Claws and Bone Swords, we will apply the last 3 wounds to Warriors 8 through 10 (giving them three each).

 

Through wound allocation we would have:

 

Warrior 1, 2 wounds

Warrior 2, 2 wounds

Warrior 3, 2 wounds

Warrior 4, 2 wounds

Warrior 5, 2 wounds

Warrior 6, 2 wounds

Warrior 7, 2 wounds

Warrior 8, 3 wounds

Warrior 9, 3 wounds

Warrior 10, 3 wounds

 

We must then roll for each individual Warrior to see how many wounds each of them take (2 saves for Warrior 1, 2 saves for Warrior 2, etc). Let's say for the sake of argument they fail every single save (something I do quite often in practice). However, because we have several identical groups of Warriors, the wounds must be consolidated to remove as many whole models as possible.

 

Warriors 1-4, taking 8 wounds, would remove 2, and leaving one Warrior with 1 wound left (while one still has 3 total).

Warriors 5-7, taking 6 wounds, would remove 2, leaving one Warrior with 3 wounds left.

Warriors 8-9, taking 6 wounds, would remove both Warriors.

Warrior 10, taking 3 wounds, would be removed.

 

In practice, however, what invariably happens is that a player will combine the "rolling saves" process and "wound consolidation" process into one step, rolling 8 saves for Warriors 1-4, 6 saves for Warriors 5-7, 6 saves for Warriors 8-9, and 3 saves for Warrior 10, and removing whole models where possible/necessary.

 

In the second situation, let's assume that those 23 wounds were caused by a Grey Knights Paladin Squad. The wounds are allocated in an identical manner to above.

 

Warrior 1, 2 wounds

Warrior 2, 2 wounds

Warrior 3, 2 wounds

Warrior 4, 2 wounds

Warrior 5, 2 wounds

Warrior 6, 2 wounds

Warrior 7, 2 wounds

Warrior 8, 3 wounds

Warrior 9, 3 wounds

Warrior 10, 3 wounds

 

We must then roll for each individual Warrior to see how many wounds each of them take. But wait a second, Grey Knights wield Nemesis Force Weapons! The armor saves of the Warriors are negated by virtue of the fact that they were just hit in the face by Power Weapons. So every wound each Warrior (individually) suffers is unsaved (because a save cannot be attempted).

 

Now, lets say for the sake of argument that the Paladins fail the psychic test to activate their Nemesis Force Weapons. The wounds would then be consolidated, removing as many whole models as possible.

 

Warriors 1-4, taking 8 wounds, would remove 2, and leaving one Warrior with 1 wound left (while one still has 3 total).

Warriors 5-7, taking 6 wounds, would remove 2, leaving one Warrior with 3 wounds left.

Warriors 8-9, taking 6 wounds, would remove both Warriors.

Warrior 10, taking 3 wounds, would be removed.

 

Finally, assume the second situation. 10 Warriors, hit by a Grey Knight Paladin squad that inflicts 23 wounds on them. Wounds are allocated, saves are negated (and thus unsaved).

 

Warrior 1, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 2, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 3, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 4, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 5, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 6, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 7, 2 unsaved wounds

Warrior 8, 3 unsaved wounds

Warrior 9, 3 unsaved wounds

Warrior 10, 3 unsaved wounds

 

Before wounds are consolidated, the Paladins roll their psychic test. Lets say this time they successfully activate their Nemesis Force Weapons! Huzzah and hurray! We must then begin to consolidate wounds, taking into consideration that every single one of these wounds inflicts Instant Death.

 

Warriors 1 through 4 suffer 8 wounds. Four wounds are allocated, one to each warrior. The remaining four unallocated wounds are discarded.

Warriors 5-7 suffer 6 wounds. Three wounds are allocated, one to each warrior. The remaining three unallocated wounds are discarded.

Warriors 8-9 suffer 6 wounds. Two wounds are allocated, one to each warrior. The remaining four unallocated wounds are discarded.

Warrior 10 suffers 3 wounds. One wound is allocated to the warrior. The remaining two unallocated wounds are discarded.

 

 

DV8

[KnowThyEnemy]

correctomundo. thanks for the multiple example scenario, perhaps i shouldve done that initially to (hopefully) save any more debating :ph34r: .

 

i think, at least for our gaming group, that our current practice (allocating the wounds and rolling 'like' models together) will work just fine. keeping track of how many wounds each "group" of models in the unit has suffered will be the important part, not necessarily changing the way we toss those dice. (group A suffers 3 wounds, successful psychic test, group A loses 3 models)

[Liberame]

I still don't see it your way. the weapons do not cause instant death upon inflicting the wounds. They are retroactive from the psychic test to see if the wound is unsaved.

 

You bolded the

 

If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal. (pg. 26 brb)"

 

But the wounds did not cause instant death, they are just wounds. The only way to cause instant death is either specifically stated in the codex, or by double toughness weapons as I quoted earlier.

 

"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater, it is killed outright and removed as a casualty (pg. 26)."

 

Since the Nemesis Force Weapons do not inflict instant death to a Tyranid Warrior, except for Nemesis Daemonhammers of course, you go back to the first part of the statement.

 

"Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible"

 

You determine the amount of unsaved wounds, condense, remove, and then any wounds left over are the remaining few who have "suffered" wounds.

 

Who is to say your psychic test is taken after the saves but before the condensing of wounds? That is the main dispute we are having it seems. The rulebook has examples that show otherwise imho

 

As I have quoted earlier, the brb stated "He cannot put a single wound on each Nob, but must remove one model as well as recording that one normal Nob has suffered a wound (pg. 26 brb)."

 

It did not say each model suffered a wound and then condensed to remove a model. The example already condensed, and then stated that one additional Nob suffered a wound. By that one example in the brb give, I would not say that each model suffered a wound and taken a test, but rather the models that are left after condensing on like models are the ones who have suffered.

 

On another note towards DV8, this following statement doesn't have too much of an impact on your example given. But I just wanted to tell you know that Tyranid Warriors can not be given different gear from one another except for the one heavy weapons option.

 

I really don't see why people find this such a difficult concept to get. The only difference between a Force Weapon and a Tyranid Bonesword is who takes the leadership test to inflict instant death. They are both a retroactive form of instant death, and both can be condensed down on like models to reduce the amount of gibbed models before that leadership test is rolled.

 

 

 

/edit 1

 

Indeed, the condensing of wounds amongst identical models to remove whole models where possible (in the case of complex units with multiple-wound models) happens after rolling saves (if any apply). What happens in practice is that most players will allocate the wounds, and then simply roll all the saves for identical models at once. But that is not what is actually happening, it just so happens that the practice matches the rules to date. DV8

 

That is exactly how it is suppose to be done. It even states it so in the brb on pg. 25 in the little box on the bottom! "He goes on to roll the four saves for the Space Marines with bolters in one go" It did not say he rolls for each individual model.

 

/edit 2

 

So it will not have to change with the Grey Knights.

 

So when we look at your example.

 

Warrior 1, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 2, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 3, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 4, Lash, Bone Sword

Warrior 5, Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Warrior 6, Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Warrior 7, Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Warrior 8, Two Scything Talons

Warrior 9, Two Scything Talons

Warrior 10, Heavy Venom Cannon, Scything Talons

 

Which in reality would be Warrior 1-9 Lash, Bonesword and Warrior 10, Heavy Venomcannon Lash, Bonesword

 

So if they suffered your theoretical 23 wounds. I would allocate as such

 

Warrior 1, Lash, Bone Sword 3 wounds

Warrior 2, Lash, Bone Sword 3 wounds

Warrior 3, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 4, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 5, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 6, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 7, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 8, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 9, Lash, Bone Sword 2 wounds

Warrior 10, Heavy Venom Canon, Lash, Bone Sword 3 wounds

 

Since you do it in one go, you condense, which is still a whopping 20 wounds on the first 9 Warriors. You remove Warriors 1-6, Warrior 7 suffers 2 wounds, and Warrior 10 suffers 3 wounds. If you pass your psychic test then Warrior 7 is dead. Warriors 8 and 9 are still alive.

[Vilicate]

This is a very interesting discussion - I really never thought out the wound distribution before for a unit with lots of force weapon attacks. Initially, I was pretty much on the same page as most of the other posters on here - that is, opposing Grey Mage's assertion. However, upon thinking about it, then reading the codex, I tend to agree with his argument.

 

This is mitigated by taking Grey Knights that strike at different initiative steps though - once you pass the test, all other weapons that go at different initiative steps automatically cause instant death. This is definitely a bonus for those that want to take some swords or falchions in their units. That way, when these weapons wound, they have to distribute those wounds to other models in the squad, individually. Then you're going to be getting those one hit equals one kill type of combats. You've just got to get that initial wound with the I6 halberds first.

[StormTAG]

Methinks a fair number of people will house rule it as a "Beginning of Assault phase, activate Force Weapons" thing. Makes it easy. Since, unlike IC who have to spend the power once per wound caused, when the squad makes the test, they all have it.

 

Besides, it makes it easy to boil it down to a simple choice... "Do I use Hammerhand or Force Weapons this turn?" for the majority of squads in assault.

[Vilicate]

Methinks a fair number of people will house rule it as a "Beginning of Assault phase, activate Force Weapons" thing. Makes it easy. Since, unlike IC who have to spend the power once per wound caused, when the squad makes the test, they all have it.

 

Besides, it makes it easy to boil it down to a simple choice... "Do I use Hammerhand or Force Weapons this turn?" for the majority of squads in assault.

 

Except when you have a librarian in the squad - mine uses Hammerhand and then Might of Titan to turn my Brotherhood Banner toting Termies into S6 force-weapon machines in melee. 21 S6, I6 attacks that auto-pass the force weapon test, and then 4 S10 hammers that cause instant death. And that's the turn I get assaulted, not the turn I actually charge into melee.

 

I know I'm going to play it the correct, technical way; I'd rather play something right all the time than to get to a tournament and have to play it some completely different other way that I'm not used to. But hey, that's just me.

[Liberame]

I know I'm going to play it the correct, technical way; I'd rather play something right all the time than to get to a tournament and have to play it some completely different other way that I'm not used to. But hey, that's just me.

 

 

qft

[daboarder]

you cannot stack wounds that inflict instant death. were you to fail your psychic test, then yes you would allocate the wounds as normal, but if you were to pass your test then all 10 would die (in the above scenario). i believe its mentioned in the example in the brb when talking about distribution of wounds (no page number, at work)

 

They do not however inflict instant death until AFTER the wounds are allocated. what if you were facing paladins and you do your wounds, the opponent then allocates and takes his invulnerable saves and if a model passes all the saves allocated to him he cannot be touched by the mass FW activation that then follows.

 

It works like this because a FW cannot be activated until a wound is inflicted and that doesn't happen until AFTER a model fails its invulnerable.

 

edit: though to be fair against warriors the point is mute as they are all identical and do not have saving throws, but Nobs are still somewhat safe

[DV8]

Which in reality would be Warrior 1-9 Lash, Bonesword and Warrior 10, Heavy Venomcannon Lash, Bonesword

 

I know that in reality it's always Lashes and Boneswords, but I was using a variety of mixed wargear to represent an overly complex unit with multiple groupings of models.

 

I still don't see it your way. the weapons do not cause instant death upon inflicting the wounds. They are retroactive from the psychic test to see if the wound is unsaved.

 

And I don't see it your way. There are distinct phases of both the shooting and assault phase, but they are functionally identical.

 

1. To Hit
   
2. To Wound
   
3. Allocate Wounds
   
4. Take Saving Throws
   
5. Remove Casualties
   

 

BRB, pg 50: Force Weapons (emphasis mine)

 

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. ... If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

 

BRB, pg 24: Remove Casualties (emphasis mine)

 

For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this includes wounds against which no save can be attempted, such as those from weapons with very high AP. Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table.

 

BRB, pg 25: Complex Units (emphasis mine)

 

Once the number of wounds caused by the firing (and in this case assault) unit has been determined, the player controlling the target unit must decide which models have been wounded, allocating the wounds to the warriors of their choice. ... The player must allocate one wound to each model in the target unit before he can allocate a second wound to the same model. ...

 

We find that the clearest way of doing this is to literally pick up the dice that have scored wounds and place them next to the models that they have wounded. ...

 

BRB, pg 25: Complex Units - Taking Saving Throws (emphasis mine)

 

Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. (I concede this point, however ... ) Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models.

 

Note the sequence:

 

Determine the number of wounds.

Allocate wounds to models.

Attempt saves (if any); and every failed roll results in an unsaved wound.

Determine the number of unsaved wounds; every unsaved wound results in a casualty and thus the removal of a model.

 

There is a clear and distinct break in sequence between the points where the saves are failed (or negated), and models are removed. Failed saves, a unit suffers a casualty and the player must then determine a model that must be removed (from the proper "pool" of models, assuming different groupings.

 

BRB, pg 26: Multiple-Wound Models - Units of Multiple-Wound Models, emphasis mine

 

If the unit includes different models, first allocate the wounds suffered. Then take saves for identical models at the same time as normal.

 

Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible. ...

 

If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models.

 

Note again the distinction separation between the point where the unit suffers unsaved wounds, and the consolidation of unsaved wounds and removal of models. You do not consolidate wounds immediately as you suffer them; the rulebook is quite clear on this:

 

You suffer the unsaved wounds, and after determining the number of unsaved wounds (an implicit statement that unsaved wounds have been inflicted), you consolidate wounds and remove models where necessary, keeping in mind that instant death wounds must be assigned first (and whole models removed when possible).

 

Grey Knight Codex, pg 54: Nemesis Force Weapons - Force Weapons, emphasis mine

 

All Nemesis weapons are force weapons ... If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused.

 

Not consolidated, not models removed. The moment the target unit suffers unsaved wounds, you take the Psychic test to activate the Nemesis Force Weapons. The rulebook and the Grey Knight codex are quite clear on this.

 

Who is to say your psychic test is taken after the saves but before the condensing of wounds? That is the main dispute we are having it seems. The rulebook has examples that show otherwise imho

 

The direct quotes from the BRB and the Grey Knights Codex that I have stated above would suggest otherwise.

 

On another note towards DV8, this following statement doesn't have too much of an impact on your example given. But I just wanted to tell you know that Tyranid Warriors can not be given different gear from one another except for the one heavy weapons option.

 

Tyranid Warriors were the first thing I thought of, and I'm not too familiar with the new Tyranid Codex (I'm used to the older one where individual gear could be given to Tyranid Warriors). The unit was purely for illustrative purposes to have a complex, multi-wound unit. I could have just as easily used Paladins or Nobs, so no worries.

 

I really don't see why people find this such a difficult concept to get.

 

I know, and yet it baffles me that you're still trying to argue it :D

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

I know, and yet it baffles me that you're still trying to argue it :lol:

 

Technically since this rule existed before the GK codex, I'm just refreshing people's memories. It's everyone else that is arguing with Grey Mage and I's statement. There was a large discussion like this in regards to Tyranid Boneswords too, albeit not on this forum.

 

You quoted the following

Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible. ...

al

If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as norm (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models.

 

The part you first bolded is just that, you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered. Not who has suffered them. The weapons do not cause instant death until you successfully cast your psychic power.

 

BRB, pg 50: Force Weapons

 

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. ... If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

 

You can not have suffered a wound until someone has actually suffered them. We have only determined the number.

 

BRB, pg 24: Remove Casualties

 

For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this includes wounds against which no save can be attempted, such as those from weapons with very high AP. Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table.

 

There is a distinction on the unit having an unsaved wound versus the model.

 

BRB, pg 25: Complex Units

 

Once the number of wounds caused by the firing (and in this case assault) unit has been determined, the player controlling the target unit must decide which models have been wounded, allocating the wounds to the warriors of their choice. ... The player must allocate one wound to each model in the target unit before he can allocate a second wound to the same model. ...

 

We find that the clearest way of doing this is to literally pick up the dice that have scored wounds and place them next to the models that they have wounded. ...

 

Yes, so you allocate how many wounds go on each uniquely equipped models. This is not to mean exactly that they each have suffered the wound, but to balance out what models in the army suffer what wounds to prevent wound stacking.

 

BRB, pg 25: Complex Units - Taking Saving Throws

 

Having allocated the wounds, all of the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time, in one batch. Casualties can then be chosen by the owning player from amongst these identical models.

 

Casualties are chosen, this is done after you determine who has suffered wounds. Which we agree on.

 

BRB, pg 26: Multiple-Wound Models - Units of Multiple-Wound Models

 

If the unit includes different models, first allocate the wounds suffered. Then take saves for identical models at the same time as normal.

 

Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible. ...

 

If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models.

 

Nemesis Force Weapons don't cause instant death, therefore you remove whole models as casualties among groups of identical models.

 

Grey Knight Codex, pg 54: Nemesis Force Weapons - Force Weapons

 

All Nemesis weapons are force weapons ... If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused.

 

You underlined immediately for emphasis, however I am bolding caused for my own emphasis. How is this any different than the rules for normal Force Weapons?

 

Pg. 50 brb

The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound

 

Can the normal Force Weapon not use his psychic power immediately after the first unsaved wound is caused?

 

You say the rulebook and the GK Codex shows that you take your test before you condense wounds and yet have not shown where it says it explicitly. On pg. 26 of the brb it gave the example of the Ork Nobs. It says that he can not place a single wound on each model but must instead remove a whole model instead and place another wound on another Nob. Those are the models who have suffered a wound. Now you immediately take your psychic test.

 

Lets use a different example instead of Tyranid Warriors. How about Paladins?

 

Let's assume they are using standard Nemesis Force Swords for the +1 to invul save in CC.

 

Hypothetically speaking, lets say the squad is 5 identical Paladins, and you cause 10 wounds to them.

 

You allocate two wound to all 5, but you successfully pass 7 invulnerable saves and fail 3. You condense wounds down and remove one model and allocate one wound to another. You successfully cast your psychic test

 

You would say that 3 Paladins have been taken down, I would say 2.

 

 

The brb makes references several times that the game is meant to simulate a people moving across the field, shooting through models that are actively taking cover, and models that are in a swirl of melee.

 

I can provide quotes if you wish, I am just hoping you will agree in that aspect.

 

When I picture the above scenario with the Paladins being played out, I see that the Paladins are fighting in melee, and 1 very unfortunate Paladins wargear failed him, while another while still capable of fighting is killed by the psychic might of his opponent.

 

On a side note, I wish Grey Mage would help out in this discussion.

[daboarder]

Leaving out psychic powers for the minute, by your logic if I were to fire a S8 Ap 5 gun at a unit of 3 unique warriors (hypothetical unit) and a 4 BG's at a unit of warriors and have them all wound, I would then allocate the wounds such that one warrior was taking the S8 and 2 BG wounds and then the next one was taking 2 more BG wounds. If I were then to fail all the armour saves I would, by your argument remove 2 tyranid warriors and have one with 2 wounds left, thats not how the rules work, the ID wound does NOT require you ro e-allocate wounds after saves are taken.

 

edit: BG= bolt gun

 

if you'll notice I stated the the warriors are hypothetically unique.

[Liberame]

Leaving out psychic powers for the minute, by your logic if I were to fire a S8 Ap 5 gun at a unit of 3 unique warriors (hypothetical unit) and a 4 BG's at a unit of warriors and have them all wound, I would then allocate the wounds such that one warrior was taking the S8 and 2 BG wounds and then the next one was taking 2 more BG wounds. If I were then to fail all the armour saves I would, by your argument remove 2 tyranid warriors and have one with 2 wounds left, thats not how the rules work, the ID wound does NOT require you ro e-allocate wounds after saves are taken.

Whats a BG? I'll assume its just big gun

 

No, thats not how much my logic works. You are saying you inflict 1 s8 wound and 4 normal wounds I am assuming? on 3 uniquely equipped warriors

 

Warrior 1 suffers the str8 and 1 bg wound

Warrior 2 suffers 2 bg wounds

Warrior 3 suffers 1 bg wound

 

You have to distribute evenly. You take your saves and then distribute casualties. If you failed your armor save on all of them. The str8 wound causes instant death and Warrior 1 is dead the remaining wound is wasted. Warrior 2 suffers 2 wounds, and Warrior 3 suffers 1 wound. You did say they are unique after all. Lets say they aren't unique.

 

You cause a single str8 wound, and 4 BG wounds on 3 identically geared Tyranid Warriors. I fail all my saves

 

Warrior 1 suffers the str8 wound and 1 bg wound

Warrior 2 suffers 2 bg wounds

Warrior 3 suffers 1 bg wound

 

However since they are all like models, you roll them all together, you failed all in your hypothetical situation. That is 4 wounds and a str8. You remove one model because of instant death (due to str being double of toughness), another warrior must be removed as you must condense wounds, and the last warrior has 1 wound remaining.

 

/edit 1

On a side note, where have I ever stated that you are re-allocating wounds after saves are taken? The condensing? The rules say you condense except in the case of instant death. However as we are leaving out psychic powers. The Nemesis Force Weapons don't cause instant death, your str8 shot does.

[daboarder]

no you allocate BEFORE you take saves.

 

Therefore in the above situation only 1 warrior dies if all saves are failed.

1 warrior get S8 + 1 normal

1 warrior gets 2 normal

1 warrior gets 1 normal

 

assuming uniqueness