How are you playing out the force weapons?

[Liberame]

Yes... you allocate before... we understand that... in your example you said 3 uniquely geared warriors. So yes only 1 Warrior would die...

 

If they were all the same, you allocate the wounds to each warrior... roll all the dice for each "group" of like models, and remove casualties after "condensing"

 

You seem to be confusing allocating wounds to determine saves and distributing wounds upon failed saves.

[daboarder]

Oh of course, I think we've been arguing cross purposes

[DV8]

Technically since this rule existed before the GK codex, I'm just refreshing people's memories. It's everyone else that is arguing with Grey Mage and I's statement. There was a large discussion like this in regards to Tyranid Boneswords too, albeit not on this forum.

 

I don't have the Tyranid Codex with me, so I can't quote the rule verbatim. But aren't wounds allocated, condensed, and applied to the models first, and any multi-wound models who then suffer a wound but aren't killed make a Leadership test or fall over dead? Works a little differently from Nemesis Force Weapons (which, as I'll explain my perspective below, also work quite differently from Force Weapons).

 

You quoted the following

Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models as casualties where possible. ...

al

If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as norm (this is done for each group of identical multiple-wound models.

 

The part you first bolded is just that, you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered. Not who has suffered them. The weapons do not cause instant death until you successfully cast your psychic power.

 

Agreed. There is a distinct difference between unsaved wounds caused, and unsaved wounds suffered.

 

I won't bother quoting the rules from my previous post, I'm sure you and I are aware of both. The issue is that you have to take the Force Weapon rules and combine them with the new Nemesis Force Weapon rules, because they work quite differently for both Independent Characters, and for any single models/units with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. Let's step back for a moment and talk about Force Weapons.

 

Force Weapons, without taking a psychic test, are just regular power weapons. Wounds they inflict negate armor saves, and after allocation, any unsaved wounds (after invulnerable saves) caused to the unit will then be suffered by the models that were unable to save them. If, after all necessary models have suffered the wounds allocated to them, there is still any model left alive after having taken a wound, the attacker may then take a psychic test to retroactively inflict Instant Death on that wounded model, instantly killing them.

 

We are agreed on that point, I hope?

 

Now, Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons. And if you read the entire paragraph, you'll note that it makes a distinct difference in function based on who is wielding the Nemesis Force Weapon, and GW has actually given us a special rule - Brotherhood of Psykers - to help us make this distinction.

 

Essentially, regarding the use of their Nemesis Force Weapons, there are two types of users in the Grey Knight Codex: those without the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, and those with it. The former will be Independent Characters and Dreadknights. The latter will be units.

 

Those without the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule must use their Nemesis Force Weapons as outlined by the Force Weapon rules. Whoever they attack has to actually suffer the wounds first (that is, models must lose any wounds caused to them) before they can take the psychic test to retroactively pop them. And they must do this for each model they wish to Instant Death in this way (assuming their Psychic Mastery level is high enough to do so, AFAIK only Grand Masters, Brother-Captains and Librarians will be able to ID more than one in a given turn).

 

So before continuing further, regular Force Weapons, and Nemesis Force Weapons in the hands of Grey Knights without the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule:

 

Roll to Hit

Roll to Wound

Allocate Wounds

Attempt to Save (invulnerable saves)

Determine the number of unsaved wounds caused

Unit being attacked suffers the unsaved wounds based on which models/groups of models were allocated what (consolidation/condensing of wounds)

If there is a single model that suffers an unsaved wound from the Force Weapon/Nemesis Force Weapon, but isn't killed, the user may then attempt a psychic test to retroactively inflict Instant Death

 

Agreed? However...

 

Those with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule must use their Nemesis Force Weapons as outlined by the Force Weapon rules, but they have caveats/addendums that modify the original sequence as outlined for Force Weapons in the BRB. It makes the distinction that their Nemesis Force Weapons must be 'activated' by rolling one psychic test for the unit. Should that test be successful, all Nemesis Force Weapons within that unit will cause Instant Death for the duration of that Assault Phase (and note too that it makes a clear distinction that Independent Characters within the unit must roll separately for their own Nemesis Force Weapons; this supports my argument above that).

 

It then goes on to point out that this psychic test to 'activate' the Nemesis Force Weapons happens when the unsaved wounds are caused (not suffered). In the case of Nemesis Force Weapons striking at different Initiative values, the test will be taken immediately after the first set of unsaved wounds are caused.

 

That is the distinction. So it takes the sequence as normal for Force Weapons above, and steps in at a different point than normal to say: hey, we're special..we have Nemesis in the name:

 

Roll to Hit

Roll to Wound

Allocate Wounds

Attempt to Save (invulnerable saves)

Determine the number of unsaved wounds caused

Wait a second, unsaved wounds were caused? *Psychic test* ha-HAH! All of these wounds now inflict Instant Death

Unit being attacked suffers the unsaved wounds based on which models/groups of models were allocated what (consolidation/condensing of wounds), taking into account that all the unsaved wounds caused (and now being suffered) inflict Instant Death.

 

 

DV8

[KnowThyEnemy]

thanks for the further clarification DV8. just one point of contention to our argument (though your doing most of the leg work ;)). as far as ive read it, right now im disagreeing about your IC assessment when it comes to NFWs. the only difference it states in the rule for using NFWs is that ICs and units using the Brotherhood of Psykers rule must test seperatley. that does not change the fact that they are still NFW (not regular FW) and work in the aforementioned way.

 

so to sum it up, unit tests after it causes an unsaved wound, IC tests after it causes an unsaved wound, but they both still follow the rule for NFW: all wounds cause ID.

[DV8]

thanks for the further clarification DV8. just one point of contention to our argument (though your doing most of the leg work ;)). as far as ive read it, right now im disagreeing about your IC assessment when it comes to NFWs. the only difference it states in the rule for using NFWs is that ICs and units using the Brotherhood of Psykers rule must test seperatley. that does not change the fact that they are still NFW (not regular FW) and work in the aforementioned way.

 

so to sum it up, unit tests after it causes an unsaved wound, IC tests after it causes an unsaved wound, but they both still follow the rule for NFW: all wounds cause ID.

 

I'll have to re-read that particular portion. I'm on the fence about that particular issue myself, with regards to Nemesis Force Weapon users who don't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. As it doesn't specifically state what happens to their wounds, I'm willing to err on the side of caution and say their Nemesis Force Weapons are less awesome.

 

The wording and function for Nemesis Force Weapons in the hands of those with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule is quite clear, however.

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

I'm glad to see we agree on many things DV8, and I understand where your point of view is coming from. You even provided good evidence to support your arguement.

 

The one point of contention I have towards your rebuttal however is you putting a distinction between wounds caused and woulds suffered. The only mention of "caused" in the brb used was if a would suffered causes instant death.

 

The Brotherhood of Psykers says to take a Psychic test after they cause a wound you say? I'm in class replying on my phone (don't tell the professor) so I can't reply and check the previous post where we quoted it. If that is truly the case, then you would test before invulnerable saves. You roll to hit. You roll to wound. Those that succeeded caused wounds. After saves you know how many wounds are suffered.

 

You agree with me in regards to how normal Force Weapons work. I am merely pointing out how Nemesis Force Weapons work the same way, just not limited to one attack if they the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

 

You also stated the IC must test separately from the squad and his NFW works the same as a normal FW. With the example you gave, both would take their tests at different times in combat.

 

When I get home I'll look up the Tyranid Bonesword rule and post it. (On a sidenote I love your painting style and looking to start using an airbrush.)

[DV8]

I'm glad to see we agree on many things DV8, and I understand where your point of view is coming from. You even provided good evidence to support your arguement.

 

Well really it's merely a matter of sequence that we're quibbling about (but something that could drastically change the outcome)

 

The one point of contention I have towards your rebuttal however is you putting a distinction between wounds caused and woulds suffered. The only mention of "caused" in the brb used was if a would suffered causes instant death.

 

The problem isn't exclusive to Nemesis Force Weapons, and/or the distinction between wounds caused and wounds suffered. GW has always had a problem maintaining a consistent (and thorough) level of language/terminology in their rules. However, the logic behind differentiating between wounds caused and wounds suffered is simple, really:

 

A unit will have wounds caused to it. The individual models in the unit will then suffer for it. The specificity of unsaved wounds caused merely narrows down the placement of the psychic test (that is, after the unit has exhausted all possible means of saves, it will have had x number of unsaved wounds caused to it). Once you determine the number of unsaved wounds caused to a unit (and more specifically, identical groupings of models in the case that wound allocation was necessary), you can then follow through by "removing" wounds from models to represent the wounds they suffer.

 

It's less so a distinct ruling by word, more ruling by intent of meaning by virtue of the language; unsaved wounds caused doesn't necessarily mean a model has suffered for it yet. It is only after wounds are metaphorically removed from our toy soldiers (in most cases this involves the removal of models from the table) have they suffered for it.

 

The Brotherhood of Psykers says to take a Psychic test after they cause a wound you say? I'm in class replying on my phone (don't tell the professor) so I can't reply and check the previous post where we quoted it. If that is truly the case, then you would test before invulnerable saves. You roll to hit. You roll to wound. Those that succeeded caused wounds. After saves you know how many wounds are suffered.

 

Grey Knight Codex, pg 54: Nemesis Force Weapons - Force Weapons

 

All Nemesis weapons are force weapons ... If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused.

 

The only problem is that the Taking Saves sequence accounts for all the saves possible: armor, invulnerable, and cover. You attempt your best save (if possible). A pass ignores the wound, a fail results in an unsaved wound caused to the unit. So in order for any wound to be unsaved, any possible save (including invulnerable) must have been attempted.

 

You agree with me in regards to how normal Force Weapons work. I am merely pointing out how Nemesis Force Weapons work the same way, just not limited to one attack if they the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

 

The issue is that Nemesis Force Weapons add a further 2 or 3 paragraphs detailing the new way in which they work that supercede that of generic Force Weapons as outlined per the BRB.

 

You also stated the IC must test separately from the squad and his NFW works the same as a normal FW. With the example you gave, both would take their tests at different times in combat.

 

Yes, they would. But I don't think that would really be an issue would it?

 

When I get home I'll look up the Tyranid Bonesword rule and post it. (On a sidenote I love your painting style and looking to start using an airbrush.)

 

Would be much appreciated. And thanks. The airbrush is definitely an expedient way to paint large quantities of models, and will really change the way you approach armies.

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

DV8 can you do me a favor a post the "..." portion in your Brotherhood of Psykers rule so I can see the whole thing?

[DV8]

DV8 can you do me a favor a post the "..." portion in your Brotherhood of Psykers rule so I can see the whole thing?

 

Alas I too am at work and sans Grey Knight Codex (I have the Dark Eldar Codex if that helps? :) ), so all I can do is re-quote old posts. If I remember correctly, it simply references the rulebook and page number (50) for the application of Force Weapons. From there it continues to list the adjustments made for Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

Class is over. OMW home, will edit this post when I get there. Not going to post and drive lol.

 

/edit Now I am home.

 

Nemesis Force Weapons

Force Weapons: All Nemesis Weapons are force weapons, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to "activate" all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the Psychic test to "activate" the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of the Psychic test.

 

 

It's less so a distinct ruling by word, more ruling by intent of meaning by virtue of the language; unsaved wounds caused doesn't necessarily mean a model has suffered for it yet. It is only after wounds are metaphorically removed from our toy soldiers (in most cases this involves the removal of models from the table) have they suffered for it.

 

We have to separate RAI and RAW. If you go by your explanation that you gave.

 

Taking Saves sequence accounts for all the saves possible: armor, invulnerable, and cover. You attempt your best save (if possible). A pass ignores the wound, a fail results in an unsaved wound caused to the unit. So in order for any wound to be unsaved, any possible save (including invulnerable) must have been attempted.

 

You are assuming that you take your Psychic test

to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused.

 

However I can then go by RAW and say that

If a unit is striking at different initiative orders

then you are indeed correct. However, if not striking at different initiative orders then they are using

force weapons, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

except that all of their attacks inflict instant death except for the one model, as described in the brb, but must still follow the normal sequence of Force Weapons.

 

/edit

So now even units with Brotherhood of Psykers rule have to test at different times depending on what their equipment loadout is. If you have 10 Halberds, since they all strike at the same Initiative, you no longer follow the "if" clause, which states you test immediately after the first wound is caused. But rather you test at the same time other Force Weapons would. Throw in 9 Halberds and 1 Daemonhammer, and you now follow the "if" clause? If we go by pure RAW, that is what it is stating?

[DV8]

It's an interesting point you raise Liberame, and one I had considered as well. However the end result then is that units of Grey Knights that all strike at the same Initiative order will have marginally less effective Nemesis Force Weapons than a unit that strikes at various Initiative speeds. Incentive perhaps to incorporate a mix of weapons to ensure varying Initiative orders? Halberds + Hammers perhaps?

 

By RAW I suppose you are correct, however I don't think Games Workshop had intended for Nemesis Force Weapons to be more or less effective dependent on varying Initiative orders within a unit. I would be more inclined to use the procedure/sequence used for Nemesis Force Weapons striking at multiple Initiative orders (RAW) to establish the intent (RAI) for a unit striking with a single Initiative order.

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

Someone once said in one of the threads I read before that GW wish's players to use the least powerful outcome of rules. However, I have no idea where it states that in the brb. If that is the case, wouldn't it make more sense to not treat it at the different initiative orders, but as normal force weapons? ie. You test after wound allocation per initiative step?

 

So if you had a squad with 1 Halberd and 7 Swords + whatever, If you pass your Psychic test after the halberd wounds are allocated, all of the swords now cause instant death.

 

/edit 1

 

Here is the Bonesword

Bonesword

No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a bonesword. In addition, if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a Leadership test or suffer instant death. If the Tyranid creature that inflicted the wound has armed with a pair of boneswords then the Leadership test must instead be passed on 3d6.

 

So basically the rules are explaining that it is a Force Weapon, however since not all creatures that wield boneswords are Psykers, they wouldn't be able to take a Psychic test in order to cause instant death. Instead the opponent rolls essentially a "Psychic test". Except he's trying to pass to not activate them. Because its for one or more unsaved wounds, it draws similarity to the NFW's ruling of ALL wounds inflict instant death.

[DV8]

That would be more an opinion than a hard-set rule, the idea being that you give your opponent the benefit of the doubt, and where possible, take the least beneficial so as not to try and "cheat" an advantage (even unknowningly).

 

However, I believe that with the full Nemesis Force Weapon rules, we have multiple instances of usage (units without the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule and units with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule; within the latter we have two subsets: units where all models striking at the same Initiative order, units with models striking at different Initiative orders)

 

By RAW models/units without the Brotherhood of Psykers rule must use their Nemesis Force Weapons as normal Force Weapons.

 

By RAW models/units with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule striking at the same Initiative order would also use their Nemesis Force Weapons as normal Force Weapons, with the exception that one test is made, and if successful any models that were wounded as a result of the combat but not killed outright would than suffer Instant Death and be removed from play if they did not have the Eternal Warrior special rule.

 

By RAW models/units with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, striking at different Initiative orders, would use their Nemesis Force Weapons as I have outlined in posts prior, activating their Nemesis Force Weapons after unsaved wounds are caused (and counted), but before they have been condensed and models suffer wounds and/or are removed from play.

 

The first and the third I don't believe are in contention. The issue would seem to be that the second issue (units/models striking at the same Initiative order) isn't clear, because it seems to be shoe-horned between instances one and two. If situation three did not exist (or rather, no distinction had been made by GW to establish the sequence of events for striking at multiple Initiative orders), I would be inclined to agree with you and err on the side of caution, making the Nemesis Force Weapons to behave as normal Force Weapons.

 

However, we have RAW in the third instance that outlines what happens for units/models with the Brotherhood of Psykers when activating their Nemesis Force Weapons. It would be safe to assume that a unit/model with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule striking at the same Initiative order would behave in the same way, forgoing benefit of the doubt and using established RAW (stronger in this case because it pertains to the same weapon in question and its usage) to (re)clarify RAI.

 

EDIT:

Here is the Bonesword

Bonesword

No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a bonesword. In addition, if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a Leadership test or suffer instant death. If the Tyranid creature that inflicted the wound has armed with a pair of boneswords then the Leadership test must instead be passed on 3d6.

 

So basically the rules are explaining that it is a Force Weapon, however since not all creatures that wield boneswords are Psykers, they wouldn't be able to take a Psychic test in order to cause instant death. Instead the opponent rolls essentially a "Psychic test". Except he's trying to pass to not activate them. Because its for one or more unsaved wounds, it draws similarity to the NFW's ruling of ALL wounds inflict instant death.

 

Not quite. I can understand where you're coming from, since Boneswords are functionally similar to Force Weapons. However, they are not classified as such and cannot be used to argue for each other. Bottom line, Boneswords =/= Force Weapons, despite their similarity in function (the infliction of Instant Death dependent on the result of a Leadership test). Note also the use of the phrase "if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds", denoting that the model has already lost wounds.

 

For example, a Librarian charges a Carnifex, hits twice and wounds once. The Carnifex has the single wound allocated to him (quite clear in this instance since he's the only model engaged in combat with the Librarian) and can attempt a save. A Force Weapon negates his save, and without an invulnerable save, it can be said that an unsaved wound has been caused to the Carnifex. We now remove a metaphorical wound from the Carnifex, and he is said to have suffered an unsaved wound. Because the Carnifex is still alive, the Librarian now attempts to use his Force Weapon to inflict Instant Death on the Carnifex.

 

Consider a second example, a Librarian is charged by a unit of two differently armed Tyranid Warriors. Assume the Librarian is in cover, so he goes first. He hits three times, and wounds twice. Each Warrior now has a wound allocated to them, and can attempt a save. As before, without invulnerable saves, it can be said that two unsaved wounds have been caused to the unit of Tyranid Warriors, one to each Warrior allocated. We now remove the metaphorical wounds from the Warriors, and they are said to have suffered an unsaved wound each. Now, because both Warriors are still alive, the Librarian can choose one, and attempt to use his Force Weapon to inflict Instant Death. He would only be able to do so on one, unless he was an Epistolary or Master of Runes (or whatever ability) that would allow him to use more than one psychic power in a turn. Assuming he can only cast one, and he is successful, the result would be one dead Warrior, and a Warrior with 2 wounds left.

 

Now consider a third example, a Tyranid Warrior (or Prime, whatever) charges a unit of three differently armed Thunderwolves. Assume that for whatever reason, the Warrior/Prime strikes first. He hits three times and wounds three times. Each Thunderwolf now has a wound allocated to them, and can attempt a save. A Bonesword is a power weapon and negates their save, and so the only saves they could attempt would be from Storm Shields. For the sake of this argument, lets say one of them is, and he passes his 3+ save, leaving the other two with one wound each. It can now be said that two unsaved wounds have been caused to the Thunderwolf unit, one for each Thunderwolf that failed their save (re: had their save negated). We now remove the metaphorical wounds (1 from each Thunderwolf that failed their save), and the unit is said to have suffered two unsaved wounds. Because the two wounded Thunderwolves are alive, they must now make two Leadership tests (one for each of them); if they fail, they are removed from play.

 

Basically TL;DR, Force Weapons can only be used by Psykers, and are dependent on the owning player to successfully cast a Psychic Power. It also requires the owner to pick a model wounded but not killed to inflict Instant Death on, one per each casting of the Force Weapon "power". A Bonesword can be used by any Tyranid that has the option (Psyker or not), and is dependent on the attacked player to successfully pass their Leadership tests, one for each model wounded but not killed by the Bonesword.

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

Until GW puts out a FAQ, I am going to play it by the 3 RAW examples. Yes one can assume that because the ruling gives a distinction of rolling immediately after the wounds are caused IF they strike at different initiative orders. But that is RAI, not RAW.

 

One could just as easily assume that GW intended that all NFW work like normal Force Weapons, except that those with the BoP ruling make all wounds inflict instant death. However, people do not want to do this, because they want their armies to be all powerful and destroy everyone. Sort of like a WAAC mentality.

 

I really hope someone can point out this thread to GW, since we have both given an ample amount of evidence to push this discussion one way or another. This really needs to be addressed in the FAQ.

[DV8]

Until GW puts out a FAQ, I am going to play it by the 3 RAW examples. Yes one can assume that because the ruling gives a distinction of rolling immediately after the wounds are caused IF they strike at different initiative orders. But that is RAI, not RAW.

 

One could just as easily assume that GW intended that all NFW work like normal Force Weapons, except that those with the BoP ruling make all wounds inflict instant death. However, people do not want to do this, because they want their armies to be all powerful and destroy everyone. Sort of like a WAAC mentality.

 

I really hope someone can point out this thread to GW, since we have both given an ample amount of evidence to push this discussion one way or another. This really needs to be addressed in the FAQ.

 

Agreed. Huzzah GW and their fuzzy rules writings!

 

Truth be told though, it's very rare that you'll see units of Grey Knights striking entirely at simultaneous Initiative order anyways. There will usually be a mix of Halberds, Hammers and Psycannons at the very least (the inclusion of either/or Hammer or Psycannon is enough to swing it to RAW in the third instance).

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

For the Hammer I agree, it can swing it. But not for the Psycannons, as the entire rule is in regards to only the Nemesis Force Weapons. The RAW states that if you have the BoP rule then you take only a single test for your Nemesis Force Weapons. The if portion only pertains if you are striking at different initiative orders with other Nemesis Force Weapons as stated in the last sentence.

 

Just gives an incentive for the enemy's Vindicare assassin to pop the hammer, if your squad is heading towards his Paladins.

 

 

/edit

I read your explanation on the Boneswords, however I will still say they function like Force Weapons. I have already stated before that the only difference between a Force Weapon from someone with Brotherhood of Psykers rule and a Bonesword is merely a matter of who is taking the Leadership test. You underlined the clause that stated suffer one or more unsaved wounds yet under the Force Weapons it says suffered a wound as well. If you try to make the distinction of suffering one or more unsaved wounds and suffered an unsaved wound then you could argue that if a Librarian caused 2 unsaved wounds on one target then you would not be able to inflict instant death as the Force Weapon rule did not specifically state you could use it on someone that has taken more than one wound without the clause "or more than one unsaved wounds".

 

Yes the Brotherhood of Psykers only have to test once, and the enemy has to take a Leadership test per individual model for boneswords. But lets say for example that I lower everyone in the squads Leadership to 3. You fail all your Leadership tests. That is essentially saying I "passed my Brotherhood of Psykers rule" and all my attacks inflicted instant death.

 

I am not trying to compare boneswords with Force Weapons, so much that I am instead comparing boneswords to Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

I understand the limitations of a normal Force Weapon requires you to be a Psyker and can only be used on one model. Nemesis Force Weapons however do not have the one model limitations just the same as boneswords.

 

That formed the basis of my original argument as since neither weapon inflicts instant death until after a Leadership test is taken (either from you or the enemy), wounds are condensed before said Leadership test and then models are removed via instant death.

 

/edit Back to lab I go...

[DV8]

For the Hammer I agree, it can swing it. But not for the Psycannons, as the entire rule is in regards to only the Nemesis Force Weapons. The RAW states that if you have the BoP rule then you take only a single test for your NFW. The if portion only pertains if you are striking at different initiative orders with other Nemesis Force Weapons as stated in the last sentence.

 

Just gives an incentive for the enemy's Vindicare assassin to pop the hammer, if your squad is heading towards his Paladins.

 

Fair enough. Also gives me incentive to pop the Vindicare Assassin first (not that I need additional incentive anyways).

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

On a side note why does everyone put a mastercrafted demon hammer on the Justicar. You know, the bloke that auto dies if you perils?

[DV8]

On a side note why does everyone put a mastercrafted demon hammer on the Justicar. You know, the bloke that auto dies if you perils?

 

Force of habit, I suppose. In anything but a Terminator or Paladin Squad, IIRC the only model capable of Master-crafting a weapon is the Justicar/Keeper of the Flame (don't have my Codex with me so I can't confirm). This gives you a higher chance to hit, as well as netting you more attacks (as in the case of Justicars in Strike Squads, Interceptors and Purgation squads).

 

 

DV8

[Liberame]

On a side note why does everyone put a mastercrafted demon hammer on the Justicar. You know, the bloke that auto dies if you perils?

 

Yeah its a higher chance to hit but I guess I'm just a little paranoid. There is going to be many new GK armies because of new dex fever. And those mind strike missiles are going to do some damage. Or Dark Eldar Crucible of Malediction.

[mukslinger]

the idea that there is a difference in "suffered" and "caused", with respect to how these things work, is slightly flawed. there is no distinction made between them in the rules. all you can get out of that idea, is maybe that the attackers cause and the defenders suffer. is 'caused' even used in the brb? they do use 'suffered', and before anything is removed, be it models or wounds. the brb is full of suffering, lol.

 

- wounds must be allocated so that each model suffers at least one wound before it gets a second, this applies even to multi-wound models. The facts that like-models pool their saves and you must remove whole models during the remove casualties step is irrelevant. (there is an illustration of this in the brb, even like models have a couple each)

- at the start of the remove casualties step it says, "once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds the unit has suffered,". In order to determine the number of unsaved wounds they have suffered, they must exist, and we also know that we allocated these wounds to specific models earlier. therefore, each of these models, have suffered unsaved wounds before the remove casualties step. Again, the facts that you have pooled their saves, that instant death effects are handled immediately and you must remove whole models during the remove casualties step is irrelevant.

 

although not the same and written differently, nfw's are functionally similar to boneswords, in timing. it is something we have seen and debated before. eldar direswords, daemon soul devourer, tyranid bonesword, and nemisis force weapons are all pretty much the same in that respect. the main difference is that nemisis force weapons is one roll to check all the suffered wounds, soul devourer does a check for every suffered wound, boneswords does a check for every model that suffered them.

 

also, not that it really matters, but worth noting because it's awsome: the nfw's are more likely to cause instant death effects than either of the others. nfw's; you make a check, and pass to make it happen. the others; the opponant makes a check, and pass to make it not happen. in comparison the odds are definitely in the nfw's favour. nfw's are just all around nastier, gotta love em.

 

but again, this debate raged on for tyranid boneswords, several times. I suspect it will for nemisis weapons too, considering they are touch more powerful. we can hope for an faq to clarify it maybe, lol

[Inquisitor Fox]

I always put a different weapon on the Justicar so I can find the model easily when I'm looking at the squad. ;) I don't mastercraft the hammer though, maybe that's just me...

[Something Wycked]

So there I was, in the middle of a big, long post supporting DV8, and I had one of those "ah ha!" moments. At first, my gut feeling was to go with the more powerful interpretation of the RAW, since I intend to play the codex. But there's a simpler solution that's also less powerful and more in line with the BRB.

 

Here's the short form: with one exception (which I'll address at the bottom) the whole paragraph supports the notion that the entire squad follows the normal rules for force weapons. Including the last sentence:

Any further wounds caused by the squad's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the results of [the first] psychic test.

As I interpret it, what the last line means is slower initiative attacks function exactly the same way as normal force weapons do, exactly the way the first set of attacks should, but the need for multiple leadership tests for each initiative pass is negated.

 

So the function of the squad would be, for the first initiative pass:

 

1) To hit

2) To wound

3) Saves

4) Wound allocation

5) Casualties

6) Psychic test to activate the force weapons to kill wounded mult-wound models

 

For all subsequent initiative passes:

 

1) To hit

2) To wound

3) Saves

4) Wound allocation

5) Casualties

6) Abide by the result of the previous step 6

 

It appears beautifully simple to me to use this method. However...

 

This. One. Line.

 

If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death.

 

Mucks the whole theory up.

 

That one line causes RAW to balance a GK squad with 1 or 2 halberds completely against any units of multi-wound models, since the first set of attacks happen as normal, and then all subsequent attacks inflict instant death innately as though the weapons had the special rule "Inflicts Instant Death" inserted to their entry.

 

So I'm stuck on the same conclusion you fellas landed on: This rule needs a FAQ clarification. Badly.

[Liberame]

Yep, you came to the same conclusion I had. Through a lot of debate and discussion, DV8 and I have come to a sort of an agreement that technically works. But still is a horrible solution until the FAQ rolls around. I've just kinda ditched this thread and am have been focusing on playtesting. Just played a game against a friends 2500 Deathwing, and although I won. I had to avoid CC at all cost. His thundershields destroyed my Purifiers and GKGM and Librarian.

[mukslinger]

have fun playtesting! I need to play more myself, hahaha.