Dreadknight teleporter

[KnowThyEnemy]

so, stormraven + draigo + dreadknight + ven dread = is it a bird? is it a plane? no its...well it is a plane, riding in front of what appears to be a weather front. todays forecast: partly cloudy with an 80% chance of PAAAAIIIINNNNN :)

[Brovius]

Indeed, the precident would probly beg you to take the worst of other situations aswell- youll have to take dangerous terrain tests if you assault into cover, and youll fallback 3d6 instead of 2d6- as the monstrous creature mentions neither of these situations as changed, but the jump infantry does.

BRB, page 52, Unit Types.

 

Assault:

Jump Infantry assault 6" like normal infantry. This move is slowed by difficult terrain in the same way as other infantry, because the unit always covers the last few yards of an assault on foot.

 

Movement:

When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely

 

We can clearly see the RAI, when they use their jump packs they ignore terrain, but landing in it is dangerous. When they don't use their jump packs, they are slowed by difficult terrain, so instead do not treat it as dangerous. They are treated as Infantry when assaulting.

 

Not meaning to sound antsy over it, but it isn't nearly as bad as you think

 

EDIT: typo

[RedemptionNL]

You can't be more than one unit type.

 

That's a fundamental in 40k.

 

Actually, there's plenty of mixed unit types already in most codexes:

- Transport Tank

- Fast Skimmer

- Open-Topped Walker

 

And likewise, a Fast Walker, or a Skimmer Walker would break the game too, just like all the silly examples you've listed. Doesn't disprove that a Jump Monstrous Creature couldn't work.

 

How does a Jump Infantry MC work with Jaws for example?

 

RAW, it would just substract one from the dice roll.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ther'e not mixed.

 

They're all types of the 'vehicle' unit type.

[Valerian]

Ther'e not mixed.

 

They're all types of the 'vehicle' unit type.

 

That's right.

 

The Unit Types are:

- Infantry

- Beasts and Cavalry

- Monstrous Creatures

- Jump Infantry

- Artillery

- Bikes and Jetbikes

- Vehicles

 

(BRB pages 4&5)

 

Each Unit Type have unique and distinct rules, including rules specific the the Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases (starting on page 51), which make them inherently mutually exclusive. A unit cannot be of multiple types at the same time, as there is no way to resolve both ways of Moving, Shooting, and Assaulting, at the same time.

 

Vehicles are one of the Unit Types, which have additional "sub-types" (yes, they should have used a different word, like "kind" to keep from confusing folks. The types of Vehicles are: transport, tank, open-topped, fast, skimmer, and walker. Unlike Unit Types, vehicle types can be combined to define, for example, a fast skimmer or an open-topped walker, in which case the vehicle has all of the rules of all of it's types.

 

Thus far it would sound like we would have a problem with a Daemon Prince with wings, because we cannot have a unit with multiple Unit Types. However, the DP is a Monstrous Creature that Moves as Jump Infantry. Thus the codex has given us exactly the information that we need to know how to use the model in battle. It Moves as Jump Infantry, so we look to the Movement section (paragraphs 2 and 3 on page 52) for Jump Infantry for guidance on the Movement phase for the DP, but we go back to the Monstrous Creature section (page 51), for guidance on the Shooting and Assault phases. There is no conflict here with the DP with Wings, because we only have a single set of rules to reference for each phase (JI for Movement, but MC for others).

 

The problem with the Dreadknight is that we have no such guidance. The Dreadknight is unit type Monstrous Creature in it's profile. However, when upgrade with the Personal Teleporter, it becomes Jump Infantry. It cannot be both JI and MC, because we cannot apply two ways to Move, two ways to Shoot, and two ways to Assault at the same time.

 

Until Errata'd the RAW is the he is now JI, with all of the advantages, and disadvantages that comes with. No doubt the RAI is likely that he is meant to Move as JI, but remains unit type MC, like other models with similar circumstances. However, the big Fail, is that he wasn't written that way.

 

My House Rule will be that he'll only Move as JI, but if someone wants to play otherwise, as nonsensical as it is, by RAW you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Grimtooth]

Ther'e not mixed.

 

They're all types of the 'vehicle' unit type.

 

That's right.

 

The Unit Types are:

- Infantry

- Beasts and Cavalry

- Monstrous Creatures

- Jump Infantry

- Artillery

- Bikes and Jetbikes

- Vehicles

 

(BRB pages 4&5)

 

Each Unit Type have unique and distinct rules, including rules specific the the Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases (starting on page 51), which make them inherently mutually exclusive. A unit cannot be of multiple types at the same time, as there is no way to resolve both ways of Moving, Shooting, and Assaulting, at the same time.

 

Vehicles are one of the Unit Types, which have additional "sub-types" (yes, they should have used a different word, like "kind" to keep from confusing folks. The types of Vehicles are: transport, tank, open-topped, fast, skimmer, and walker. Unlike Unit Types, vehicle types can be combined to define, for example, a fast skimmer or an open-topped walker, in which case the vehicle has all of the rules of all of it's types.

 

Thus far it would sound like we would have a problem with a Daemon Prince with wings, because we cannot have a unit with multiple Unit Types. However, the DP is a Monstrous Creature that Moves as Jump Infantry. Thus the codex has given us exactly the information that we need to know how to use the model in battle. It Moves as Jump Infantry, so we look to the Movement section (paragraphs 2 and 3 on page 52) for Jump Infantry for guidance on the Movement phase for the DP, but we go back to the Monstrous Creature section (page 51), for guidance on the Shooting and Assault phases. There is no conflict here with the DP with Wings, because we only have a single set of rules to reference for each phase (JI for Movement, but MC for others).

 

The problem with the Dreadknight is that we have no such guidance. The Dreadknight is unit type Monstrous Creature in it's profile. However, when upgrade with the Personal Teleporter, it becomes Jump Infantry. It cannot be both JI and MC, because we cannot apply two ways to Move, two ways to Shoot, and two ways to Assault at the same time.

 

Until Errata'd the RAW is the he is now JI, with all of the advantages, and disadvantages that comes with. No doubt the RAI is likely that he is meant to Move as JI, but remains unit type MC, like other models with similar circumstances. However, the big Fail, is that he wasn't written that way.

 

My House Rule will be that he'll only Move as JI, but if someone wants to play otherwise, as nonsensical as it is, by RAW you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Regards,

 

V

 

Damn well written Val.

 

I will enjoy causing Tempest Wrath difficult terrain and dangerous terrain checks on said JI Dreadknight until the FAQ comes out that says he only MOVES as JI.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's right.

 

The Unit Types are:

- Infantry

- Beasts and Cavalry

- Monstrous Creatures

- Jump Infantry

- Artillery

- Bikes and Jetbikes

- Vehicles

 

(BRB pages 4&5)

 

Each Unit Type have unique and distinct rules, including rules specific the the Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases (starting on page 51), which make them inherently mutually exclusive. A unit cannot be of multiple types at the same time, as there is no way to resolve both ways of Moving, Shooting, and Assaulting, at the same time.

 

Vehicles are one of the Unit Types, which have additional "sub-types" (yes, they should have used a different word, like "kind" to keep from confusing folks. The types of Vehicles are: transport, tank, open-topped, fast, skimmer, and walker. Unlike Unit Types, vehicle types can be combined to define, for example, a fast skimmer or an open-topped walker, in which case the vehicle has all of the rules of all of it's types.

 

Thus far it would sound like we would have a problem with a Daemon Prince with wings, because we cannot have a unit with multiple Unit Types. However, the DP is a Monstrous Creature that Moves as Jump Infantry. Thus the codex has given us exactly the information that we need to know how to use the model in battle. It Moves as Jump Infantry, so we look to the Movement section (paragraphs 2 and 3 on page 52) for Jump Infantry for guidance on the Movement phase for the DP, but we go back to the Monstrous Creature section (page 51), for guidance on the Shooting and Assault phases. There is no conflict here with the DP with Wings, because we only have a single set of rules to reference for each phase (JI for Movement, but MC for others).

 

The problem with the Dreadknight is that we have no such guidance. The Dreadknight is unit type Monstrous Creature in it's profile. However, when upgrade with the Personal Teleporter, it becomes Jump Infantry. It cannot be both JI and MC, because we cannot apply two ways to Move, two ways to Shoot, and two ways to Assault at the same time.

 

Until Errata'd the RAW is the he is now JI, with all of the advantages, and disadvantages that comes with. No doubt the RAI is likely that he is meant to Move as JI, but remains unit type MC, like other models with similar circumstances. However, the big Fail, is that he wasn't written that way.

 

My House Rule will be that he'll only Move as JI, but if someone wants to play otherwise, as nonsensical as it is, by RAW you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Regards,

 

V

 

:D

 

Awesome post, and very well written.

 

There are other sub types in the unit types, Jump Infantry have the sub type Jet Packs, and Bikes have the sub type Jet Bikes, both with slightly diferent rules. :)

[Captain Idaho]

Anyone who forbids a Dreadknight from being monstrous creature when equipped with a Personal Teleporter is just being a tool. It isn't difficult to interpret what happens; the things moves 12" and can shunt once per game, if it "jumps" (i.e. 12" move) into difficult terrain it takes a dangerous terrain test, whilst it still needs to be 50% obscured and rolls 2 dice for armour penetration etc.

 

Simple and makes sense, not actually providing any problems at all.

 

Whilst RAW may imply it can only be one and not the other, who cares? No tournament worth it's salt would make a ruling that way and an opponent should have the grace and humility to accept common sense. If not, you walk or don't take part in that tournament ever again.

 

After all, there are just as many problems occuring if it no longer counts as a Monstrous Creature. It can travel inside a Storm Raven, counting as a single model where as Terminators are 2. It can now be joined by independent characters and receives a cover save because it's ankle is covered. It also can only fire a single weapon and is no longer relentless.

 

It's silly. Just because it's written that way doesn't mean it over rides your common sense. I agree it should have been worded better but really, we are supposed to be sensible human beings with rationale thought, it shouldn't even be an issue.

 

And yes I'm fully aware of the "thin end of the wedge" arguments, but is there even a case close to this example? Besides those arguments are designed to avoid a decision and disallow any common sense no matter how obvious.

[Grimtooth]

Anyone who forbids a Dreadknight from being monstrous creature when equipped with a Personal Teleporter is just being a tool. It isn't difficult to interpret what happens; the things moves 12" and can shunt once per game, if it "jumps" (i.e. 12" move) into difficult terrain it takes a dangerous terrain test, whilst it still needs to be 50% obscured and rolls 2 dice for armour penetration etc.

 

Simple and makes sense, not actually providing any problems at all.

 

Whilst RAW may imply it can only be one and not the other, who cares? No tournament worth it's salt would make a ruling that way and an opponent should have the grace and humility to accept common sense. If not, you walk or don't take part in that tournament ever again.

 

After all, there are just as many problems occuring if it no longer counts as a Monstrous Creature. It can travel inside a Storm Raven, counting as a single model where as Terminators are 2. It can now be joined by independent characters and receives a cover save because it's ankle is covered. It also can only fire a single weapon and is no longer relentless.

 

It's silly. Just because it's written that way doesn't mean it over rides your common sense. I agree it should have been worded better but really, we are supposed to be sensible human beings with rationale thought, it shouldn't even be an issue.

 

And yes I'm fully aware of the "thin end of the wedge" arguments, but is there even a case close to this example? Besides those arguments are designed to avoid a decision and disallow any common sense no matter how obvious.

 

To reverse your stance, you want both the benefits of an MC with the benefits of JI, without any of the negatives.

 

Rules are the rules. The book tells you he becomes JI. Until the FAQ comes out that says he moves as JI, like a DP with wings, then he will remain JI.

[Captain Idaho]

To reverse your stance, you want both the benefits of an MC with the benefits of JI, without any of the negatives.

 

Rules are the rules. The book tells you he becomes JI. Until the FAQ comes out that says he moves as JI, like a DP with wings, then he will remain JI.

 

What so paying XX points for it is not a negative? By your logic, swapping a Chainsword for a power weapon on a Space Marine Captain should come with an associated negative because it only gives him a benefit and no negative over the chainsword. Oh wait, we pay points for the priviledge.

 

Unless the Dreadknight gets it for free in the new Codex, but somehow I doubt it very much.

 

I can honestly say I would not have a problem telling someone to their face they are being obtuse (actually alot more colourful than that, I'm being polite because it's a family board) for denying common sense in this case. I would either refuse to play them if they refused to be a sporting opponent, or if in a Tournament I would bring it up with the organisers/referees.

[KnowThyEnemy]

agreed, if theyre not smart enough to realize that it wont make the dreadknight strictly JI, then i pity them. seriously. and if they still refuse to see how dumb it is to remove them being a monstrous creature, wait until the aforementioned "stormraven + dreadknight + GM = ahahahaha" happens and then laugh in their face when they say it can't go in the stormraven because its too big. common sense can't be thrown out the window because a codex, that hasn't officially been released yet nor has no FAQ done on it yet mind you, has a disagreement on wording.

 

RAW is RAW, no arguments there, but all i can say is: be careful what you wish for. stupidity is contagious. i pray they rule in favor of the S10 dccw issue (again, another word fudge up, but seriously people) and then say it really is only JI and not JI+MC. I'd love a cover save while im pounding your tanks to pieces. however, being the sensible person i am, i refuse to believe that will happen. id rather not play a game like that, theres no fun in doing it, for either person no matter how much you love to WAAC

[Grimtooth]

And yet as the countless other armies that had codex releases with obscure rules yet they could not use common sense and had to play the rules as written UNTIL the FAQ was released.

 

You can call whoever you want the names you want, but insisting on playing RAI for your army while it is denied to the others armies who have rules inconsistencies because it isn't your army has a name for itself, ie, cheating.

[KnowThyEnemy]

lol your acting as if im doing this without the consent of my opponent. as i stated before, there would be discussion about this oversight. if they would not be swayed by common sense, then i would by all means oblige them with their wishes: a giant man-o-destruction with a cover save who can fly around in a fast gunboat. i am by no means out to deceive and for you to insinuate that is a little silly. the point is to get the RAW crowd to stop and think for a second. do you really want people putting dreadknights in stormravens? do you want them taking cover saves? if you do, then RAW is clearly in your favor with the word "replace" and like i said I can't argue with that. My counter to that is try following the Most Important Rule when it comes to your friendly games, you'll have a lot better time. No one wants to deal with that rediculous list involving 3 stormravens, 3 dreadknights and a whole lot of dakka.

[Gentlemanloser]

the point is to get the RAW crowd to stop and think for a second.

 

There's no way in hell my group won't play it as "moves as jump infantry". Still, that doesn't change the RAW.

 

And we use RAW to discuss the game with others, as house rules are personal, and shouldn't be assumed, and RAW is the basic standard the game has to be played by.

 

Of course, tournaments are going to stipulate thier own house rules, but they're still just a bunch of house rules.

 

The RAW is silly, ill thought out, and a prime candidate for change. Whenever it might be addressed. But until then, RAW is RAW. The NDK with a PT should be treated as Jump Infantry, with all that entails, and not as a MC.

 

(The OR forum also uses and discusses RAW)

[Grimtooth]

the point is to get the RAW crowd to stop and think for a second.

 

There's no way in hell my group won't play it as "moves as jump infantry". Still, that doesn't change the RAW.

 

And we use RAW to discuss the game with others, as house rules are personal, and shouldn't be assumed, and RAW is the basic standard the game has to be played by.

 

Of course, tournaments are going to stipulate thier own house rules, but they're still just a bunch of house rules.

 

The RAW is silly, ill thought out, and a prime candidate for change. Whenever it might be addressed. But until then, RAW is RAW. The NDK with a PT should be treated as Jump Infantry, with all that entails, and not as a MC.

 

(The OR forum also uses and discusses RAW)

 

And while it is talked about getting cover, riding in a Stormraven, etc, etc,.....the dreadknight being treated as a jump infantry and not an MC also has it's own negatives. It isn't all rosy becoming JI.

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally agreed! I'd rather have the 2d6 pen in CC than being able to ride in a SR. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

And yet as the countless other armies that had codex releases with obscure rules yet they could not use common sense and had to play the rules as written UNTIL the FAQ was released.

 

There aren't any rules disputes about something so painfully obvious.

 

And it is cheating to deliberately be anal about something which is so obvious just because you don't want a Monstrous Creature that can fly and have 2 Massive weapons.

 

And when the FAQ is released and says that it is still a MC, how do you think it will make you look for arguing about this? Even without the FAQ I don't know any gamer who would disallow the GK player having a MC and JI Dreadknight since they paid the expensive points for it. Even Tournament organisers would rule in that favour.

[Grimtooth]

And yet as the countless other armies that had codex releases with obscure rules yet they could not use common sense and had to play the rules as written UNTIL the FAQ was released.

 

There aren't any rules disputes about something so painfully obvious.

 

And it is cheating to deliberately be anal about something which is so obvious just because you don't want a Monstrous Creature that can fly and have 2 Massive weapons.

 

And when the FAQ is released and says that it is still a MC, how do you think it will make you look for arguing about this? Even without the FAQ I don't know any gamer who would disallow the GK player having a MC and JI Dreadknight since they paid the expensive points for it. Even Tournament organisers would rule in that favour.

 

Again, it is RAW, not RAI that dictates the game until the FAQ is released despite what you want.

 

It isn't cheating to follow the rules as written. House rule it as much as you want. TO's have the discretion to house rule as well. The point I am making is the rule as written makes the dreadknight jump infantry. It does not make the dreadknight move as jump infantry, it makes it jump infantry.

[Gentlemanloser]

Again, it is RAW, not RAI that dictates the game until the FAQ is released despite what you want.

 

It isn't cheating to follow the rules as written. House rule it as much as you want. TO's have the discretion to house rule as well. The point I am making is the rule as written makes the dreadknight jump infantry. It does not make the dreadknight move as jump infantry, it makes it jump infantry.

 

This really.

 

And if we were to discuss this in the OR forum come saturday (GK rules questions on the new dex are barred till then), the concensus would be that the NDK became Jump Infantry I'm sure.

 

(All the while everyone knowing this shouldn't be the case, and is ripe for FAQing...)

[Grimtooth]

Again, it is RAW, not RAI that dictates the game until the FAQ is released despite what you want.

 

It isn't cheating to follow the rules as written. House rule it as much as you want. TO's have the discretion to house rule as well. The point I am making is the rule as written makes the dreadknight jump infantry. It does not make the dreadknight move as jump infantry, it makes it jump infantry.

 

This really.

 

And if we were to discuss this in the OR forum come saturday (GK rules questions on the new dex are barred till then), the concensus would be that the NDK became Jump Infantry I'm sure.

 

(All the while everyone knowing this shouldn't be the case, and is ripe for FAQing...)

 

It will go the way of the DP with wings for sure unless GW really pulls something out of their peace pipe and actually makes them jump infantry with restrictions for cover, transport, and whatever as if still a monstrous creature.

[Captain Idaho]

And yet as the countless other armies that had codex releases with obscure rules yet they could not use common sense and had to play the rules as written UNTIL the FAQ was released.

 

There aren't any rules disputes about something so painfully obvious.

 

And it is cheating to deliberately be anal about something which is so obvious just because you don't want a Monstrous Creature that can fly and have 2 Massive weapons.

 

And when the FAQ is released and says that it is still a MC, how do you think it will make you look for arguing about this? Even without the FAQ I don't know any gamer who would disallow the GK player having a MC and JI Dreadknight since they paid the expensive points for it. Even Tournament organisers would rule in that favour.

 

Again, it is RAW, not RAI that dictates the game until the FAQ is released despite what you want.

 

It isn't cheating to follow the rules as written. House rule it as much as you want. TO's have the discretion to house rule as well. The point I am making is the rule as written makes the dreadknight jump infantry. It does not make the dreadknight move as jump infantry, it makes it jump infantry.

 

So let me get this right, if your opponent wanted to use a Dreadknight personal teleporter you would't allow him to count it as a Monstrous Creature if he asked?

 

And yes, you are following RAW, but accepting a mistake because it rules in your favour is cheating by intent. It's sportsmanship and spirit of honest competetion to use your common sense in this circumstance. I suppose you won't allow the Nemesis Doomfists to be used on the Dreadknight either since it is not a vehicle when the intent is it can clearly use them as GW wouldn't have given it to the unit?

[Tech Brother Torgo]

There's no way in hell my group won't play it as "moves as jump infantry". Still, that doesn't change the RAW.

 

This sums it up quite well, and goes a step further by proving once again that RAW only matters on the internet. Every tournament and gaming group will make their decision based on common sense or group consensus (hopefully the same thing). I'll bet the INAT rules for common sense very shortly after codex release, and I at least haven't played in a tournament lately that hasn't used that FAQ.

 

All this talk of cheating is more than a little disingenuous. I appreciate trying to win a debate, but it's hardly reasonable to suggest someone else is cheating by doing what they feel is right and within the rules (as negotiated by any group of people who play the game).

[Marshall666]

Tech Brother, I think the problem is people will openly admit that it is silly to treat them as JI, BUT then they will MAKE their opponent follow them to the letter...

 

It makes me dissapointed in the hobby when people go to that kind of length, when it is obvious to all involved that it should be interpreted as "Moves like JI", but then decide ahh well , until i see it typed out and stamped by Games Workshop , ill get some sort of pleasure from forcing my opponents to use it that way....

 

I second the views of everyone here that says they will not play an opponent who wants to force this issue. It clearly is a case of not following "The Most Important Rule".

 

I dont even think it warrant as much discussion as it has been given,

 

My 2 Cents

 

Marshall

[Judaz]

It also doesn't say to read the dice rolls from the top side...

This. Is. Good.

 

When the 'Rules ASS written' guy comes up to me with some bull like this I will answer with your quote.

 

BTW, you guys don't think the Angels can borrow some Dreadknights to put in our ravens? Please?

[Ail'Slath'Sleresh]

If anyone ever claims your Dreadknight with teleporter is no longer a Monstrous Creature but is Jump Infantry...

 

 

 

... you just put it in a Stormraven.

 

 

Best comment so far, lol!