Gentlemanloser Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 correct me if im wrong, but i dont believe anyone is trying to claim that the DK is a MC AND JI. KTE, it all started from; Then you rule lawyer back. No where in the BRB does it preclude a model have having more than one unit type. A PT Dreadknight is both a MC and Jump Infantry. And my response that you can't be of two (or more) unit types, as that fundamentally breaks the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Is this thread serious? In all INTENDED purposes, the Dreadknight with Teleporter upgrade is a DP with Wings and a once-per-game 30" shunt. That is all, case closed, play it like that until they FAQ. Gosh, sometimes you guys puzzle me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahotsu Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 found this: http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2009/10/jaw...d-hive-tyrants/ undefined. seems pertinent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 found this: http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2009/10/jaw...d-hive-tyrants/ undefined. seems pertinent. And yet it doesn't. The Tyranid rule still uses the "counts as" as the qualifying statement whereas the PT entry lacks that completely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 That's a pretty thin argument. "Is treated as in all respects" has the same result as "is" from the point of view of rules discussion, so the linked article is relevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 That's a pretty thin argument. "Is treated as in all respects" has the same result as "is" from the point of view of rules discussion, so the linked article is relevant. And as I mentioned, the Rule Lawyer website is outdated in the response because the Tyranid codex no longer uses "is treated as in all respects". IIRC, it now uses the "moves as" clause. Moving as something does not make you that unit type. The Winged Hive Tyrant remains a MC that moves as Jump Infantry, but is never Jump Infantry. The Personal Transporter does not use the "moves as" clause. A Dreadknight with a PT is not an MC that moves as Jump Infantry despite still being a MC. He moves as Jump Infantry because the PT made him Jump Infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ah, you didn't mention that previously. In that case, the article is outdated with respect to the Tyranids codex but still pertinent to our discussion. The same reasoning applies to this situation as once applied to the previous Tyranids codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 And still, no one has ruled on how multiple unit type units work, without using houserules. Until that is answered, I still stand that you cannot mix unit types, and doing so breaks the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souba Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 funny how falsly that tyranid wing biomorph got quoted, the real tyranid wings entry sais: "models equipped with wings move in the same manner as jump infantry, as described in the warhammer 40k rulebook" there is a huge difference between "count as" and "move in the same manner" as of that hive tyrants with wings are still ONLY monstrous creatures and not both jump infantry and MC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ah, you didn't mention that previously. In that case, the article is outdated with respect to the Tyranids codex but still pertinent to our discussion. The same reasoning applies to this situation as once applied to the previous Tyranids codex. And yet you still miss the point, PERSONAL TELEPORTERS DO NOT HAVE THE SAME VERBIAGE AS TYRANID WINGS. Rules as written do not let the Dreadknight with a PT move as Jump Infantry. Rules as written do not let the Dreadknight with a PT move in the same manner as Jump Infantry. Rules as written MAKE a Dreadknight with a PT Jump Infantry thus allowing it to move exactly like Jump Infantry. Not as or in the same manner, exactly like Jump Infantry because it is Jump Infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall666 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 And still, no one has ruled on how multiple unit type units work, without using houserules. Until that is answered, I still stand that you cannot mix unit types, and doing so breaks the game. IMHO declaring a dreadknight jump infantry and losing all its MC rules is game breaking. After all common sense and decency should be the most important rule in all games... it is a game afterall .... :lol: , Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 It's silly, but hardly game breaking. The game works just fine with a NDK being JI. No rules changes necessary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ah, you didn't mention that previously. In that case, the article is outdated with respect to the Tyranids codex but still pertinent to our discussion. The same reasoning applies to this situation as once applied to the previous Tyranids codex. And yet you still miss the point, PERSONAL TELEPORTERS DO NOT HAVE THE SAME VERBIAGE AS TYRANID WINGS. Rules as written do not let the Dreadknight with a PT move as Jump Infantry. Rules as written do not let the Dreadknight with a PT move in the same manner as Jump Infantry. Rules as written MAKE a Dreadknight with a PT Jump Infantry thus allowing it to move exactly like Jump Infantry. Not as or in the same manner, exactly like Jump Infantry because it is Jump Infantry. No, you have missed the point. Personal teleporters do not have the same verbiage now. Assuming that the linked article is accurate (which I have to trust as I don't have any Tyranid codex, old or new), the wings used to have extremely similar verbiage to what personal teleporters currently have. Technically not the same, but with the same result at any rate. That is why the article is pertinent: even though it no longer applies to the specific case in the Tyranid codex, the reasoning applied therein is still valid and can be applied to the personal teleporter. To your point, Gentlemanloser, the necessity of interpreting how to mix unit types (with no help from the BRB) doesn't change the fact that the RAW is that the unit is of a mixed type. I'm not saying it's ideal, or even a good way to play. I'm simply arguing that it is the RAW, and the proper answer to anyone who refuses to recognize the obvious intent of the personal teleporter rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm simply arguing that it is the RAW, and the proper answer to anyone who refuses to recognize the obvious intent of the personal teleporter rule. The obvious intent of the personal teleporter with respect to the Dreadknight is that the unit should only move like Jump Infantry, not become it. People, we know GW is absolutely CRAP at writing exact rules. We KNOW this. Fact. We also know that in every other instance where a monstrous creature gets some ability that lets it move like Jump Infantry -- usually wings, of course -- it doesn't change the unit type of the unit from MC to Jump Infantry. There are exactly zero units in the game that have two unit types. Anybody that sincerely believes that this is what is meant to happen with the Dreadknight hasn't been paying attention. :lol: We all agree the RAW is muddled. :P it. It's wrong. But the intention is clear enough. Anybody want to bet me anything at all that GW doesn't FAQ this to be exactly how I described? Only serious takers, please. Now, back to gaming. This discussion is silly. :P Remember what game and game company you're dealing with and get on with things. Nothing new to see here. Move along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm simply arguing that it is the RAW, and the proper answer to anyone who refuses to recognize the obvious intent of the personal teleporter rule. The obvious intent of the personal teleporter with respect to the Dreadknight is that the unit should only move like Jump Infantry, not become it. Oh, I absolutely agree. I don't actually think the position I've been arguing for is how it should be played, that's merely the argument I will use to combat anyone who tries to say that the Dreadknight isn't an MC any more, because it has become jump infantry. If they want to be mega-strict about RAW, they pick up both ends of that stick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreadmad Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'd agree that RAW the Dreadknight is both JI and MC, as it does not explicitly state that it replaces MC status with JI, just that it becomes JI (in this case in addition) and thus would have the rules for both, e.g. it takes two spaces in a transport, but it cannot embark on one as it is a MC. Also gentlemanloser, although you make good arguements, the 'game breaking' arguement is RAI, and while I personally agree, has no place in this absured RAW arguement. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I'm simply arguing that it is the RAW, and the proper answer to anyone who refuses to recognize the obvious intent of the personal teleporter rule. The obvious intent of the personal teleporter with respect to the Dreadknight is that the unit should only move like Jump Infantry, not become it. People, we know GW is absolutely CRAP at writing exact rules. We KNOW this. Fact. We also know that in every other instance where a monstrous creature gets some ability that lets it move like Jump Infantry -- usually wings, of course -- it doesn't change the unit type of the unit from MC to Jump Infantry. There are exactly zero units in the game that have two unit types. Anybody that sincerely believes that this is what is meant to happen with the Dreadknight hasn't been paying attention. :) We all agree the RAW is muddled. :cuss it. It's wrong. But the intention is clear enough. Anybody want to bet me anything at all that GW doesn't FAQ this to be exactly how I described? Only serious takers, please. Now, back to gaming. This discussion is silly. :) Remember what game and game company you're dealing with and get on with things. Nothing new to see here. Move along. Hey 6, can you just put a bolter round in this thread? We've pretty much agreed what the FAQ will say, but this will still get argued up and down until the FAQ comes out. Nothing good can come of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I'd agree that RAW the Dreadknight is both JI and MC, as it does not explicitly state that it replaces MC status with JI, just that it becomes JI (in this case in addition) and thus would have the rules for both, e.g. it takes two spaces in a transport, but it cannot embark on one as it is a MC. What happens to Marines that take Jump Packs? Or Grey Knights that take Personal Teleporters? Do they also gain JI in addition? As they use exatly the same rules. So they would be both Infantry and Jump Infantry? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godhead Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Uhm technically yes, as jump infantry is a subclass of infantry is it not? Much like a jetbike is a subcategory or bike, and a jet pack is yet another subcategory of jetbike. They explain this under the JOTWW part of the SW faq. At least that's how it's coming across to me when reading the passage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 The Unit Types are: - Infantry - Beasts and Cavalry - Monstrous Creatures - Jump Infantry - Artillery - Bikes and Jetbikes - Vehicles (BRB pages 4&5) If Jump Pack equipped marines are also Infantry, how many can embark in a Storm Raven, or Rhino? How far can they move, as Infantry can only move 6". How far do they fall back, as Infantry fall back 2d6" while JI 3d6"? You can't just take the JI amounts, as that would be ignoring the fact the unit is also Infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2708797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Uhm technically yes, as jump infantry is a subclass of infantry is it not? Much like a jetbike is a subcategory or bike, and a jet pack is yet another subcategory of jetbike. They explain this under the JOTWW part of the SW faq. At least that's how it's coming across to me when reading the passage. Incorrect. While Jump Infantry and Infantry share many (if not most) game characteristics, they are treated as completely distinct unit types. Infantry != Jump Infantry Jump Infantry != Infantry A unit cannot be both Infantry and Jump Infantry. It is either one or the other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2709141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Uhm technically yes, as jump infantry is a subclass of infantry is it not? Much like a jetbike is a subcategory or bike, and a jet pack is yet another subcategory of jetbike. They explain this under the JOTWW part of the SW faq. At least that's how it's coming across to me when reading the passage. No, jump infantry is not a subclass of infantry and Jet Packs are a subclass of Jump Infantry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2709160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 And still, no one has ruled on how multiple unit type units work, without using houserules. Until that is answered, I still stand that you cannot mix unit types, and doing so breaks the game. You keep saying that but have you actually read the rules in the Unit Types section (pg 51) of the rule book? There is nothing in there that is inconsolable between the rules for Monstrous Creatures and Jump Infantry. Not a rule contradicts each other at all barring, perhaps, the shooting which states the JI count as Infantry. But since it follows both the rules for MC and JI you can simply just follow the rules for the MC. No problem at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2709416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
muadib02 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I have to agree with Idaho and others. Nothing says that you cannot be 2 unit types at once, nor does the Personal Teleporter state that it replaces ones unit type with Jump Infantry. Regardless, as someone said before, we all know what the FAQ outcome will be. On another note, those of you who keep throwing around the term verbiage to reference the way a rule is written (ex, ...it lacks the same verbiage as the tyranid monstrous creature with wings ....) are misusing the word. You mean to say wording. Verbiage 1. A profusion of words of little or obscure content 2. a manner of expressing oneself (synonymous with diction) So in summary. My post=verbiage (being of many words and little substance) Rules= have wording Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2709433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 You keep saying that And no ones answered it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225836-dreadknight-teleporter/page/4/#findComment-2709535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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