Dreadknight teleporter

[Grimtooth]

I have to agree with Idaho and others. Nothing says that you cannot be 2 unit types at once, nor does the Personal Teleporter state that it replaces ones unit type with Jump Infantry. Regardless, as someone said before, we all know what the FAQ outcome will be.

 

On another note, those of you who keep throwing around the term verbiage to reference the way a rule is written (ex, ...it lacks the same verbiage as the tyranid monstrous creature with wings ....) are misusing the word. You mean to say wording.

Verbiage

1. A profusion of words of little or obscure content

2. a manner of expressing oneself (synonymous with diction)

 

So in summary. My post=verbiage (being of many words and little substance)

Rules= have wording

 

ver·bi·age

   /ˈvɜrbiɪdʒ/ Show Spelled[vur-bee-ij] Show IPA

–noun

1.

overabundance or superfluity of words, as in writing or speech; wordiness; verbosity.

2.

manner or style of expressing something in words; wording: a manual of official verbiage.

 

verbiage (ˈvɜːbɪɪdʒ) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

 

— n

1. the excessive and often meaningless use of words; verbosity

2. rare diction; wording

 

Considering that we are talking about how a set of rules are worded throughout a gaming system, verbiage is indeed the correct word to use. We are specifically addressing how the verbiage for tyranid wings are not the same as the personal teleporters despite being of the same game system.

[muadib02]

In your broader context, Brother Ramses, you make a very valid point. As we are dealing with the system as a whole and not just how something was phrased once. On a different note, consistency is not something I have come to expect between separate publications from GW.

[Captain Idaho]

You keep saying that

 

And no ones answered it...

 

Did you not read the rest of the post? It answers it fine.

 

Basically you can follow both unit types fine for what ever circumstance you find youself in, barring perhaps shooting. But then since you can do everything of both unit types, you can shoot as an MC and an Infantry model, you can still shoot twice with relentless.

[Gentlemanloser]

If the NDK is MC/JI, then normal GKs and Marines are Infantry/JI.

 

Extrapolate that with the idea it's ok to mix unit types.

 

So then it's ok for you to have an Infantry/Artillery unit.

 

How does that work?

 

And the answer "well it doesn't matter as there isn't one in the game" is a cop out. There's no distinct RAW to forbid mixed units types. There's no distinct RAW to allow them either. And mixing unit types breaks the game.

 

So the *only* outcome that works for 40k, RAW or RAI, or logical or whatever else you want to label it, is that you cannot mix *any* unit types.

 

Otherwise, you have to point out the RAW explaining which mixes are allowed, which aren't, and how they work.

 

Which you can't do.

[Brother Valerius]

There's no distinct RAW to allow them either.

 

You mean apart from the GK codex, where it explicitly says that a unit is an MC, and explicitly says that it is JI if it takes a personal teleporter, without saying that the latter negates the former. That qualifies as distinct RAW in my book. Furthermore, there's nothing apart from you which says that one has to explain how the situation works before it counts as being allowed by the rules. The sheer number of things not explained in the rules already should tell you that something not being explained properly doesn't mean it isn't RAW.

 

Yes, it's ridiculous. It's deliberately ridiculous, designed to counter a ridiculous RAW argument in the first place. But it's also RAW.

[Valerian]

There's no distinct RAW to allow them either.

 

You mean apart from the GK codex, where it explicitly says that a unit is an MC, and explicitly says that it is JI if it takes a personal teleporter, without saying that the latter negates the former.

 

The latter has to replace the former, it is fundamental to how the game works. A unit cannot have more than a single unit type.

 

GW haven't bothered to state that the new type replaces the old explicitly, but that does not mean that it does not have to happen. If you try to apply multiple types to a single unit they will become implacable as you cannot apply two distinct/opposing sets of rules to the same unit at the same time.

 

I'd agree that RAW the Dreadknight is both JI and MC, as it does not explicitly state that it replaces MC status with JI...

 

When a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, he is no longer a caterpillar.

V

[Captain Idaho]

If the NDK is MC/JI, then normal GKs and Marines are Infantry/JI.

 

Extrapolate that with the idea it's ok to mix unit types.

 

So then it's ok for you to have an Infantry/Artillery unit.

 

How does that work?

 

And the answer "well it doesn't matter as there isn't one in the game" is a cop out. There's no distinct RAW to forbid mixed units types. There's no distinct RAW to allow them either. And mixing unit types breaks the game.

 

So the *only* outcome that works for 40k, RAW or RAI, or logical or whatever else you want to label it, is that you cannot mix *any* unit types.

 

Otherwise, you have to point out the RAW explaining which mixes are allowed, which aren't, and how they work.

 

Which you can't do.

 

You are making a problem out of nothing though. The are no units out there which become Artillery from other units. Every one of the units types behaves like infantry except for the amendments in the relevant unit types rules. So not being able to mix unit types doesn't change the game because they are using the same standard rules.

 

You keep saying that the game is broken but there is no change to how the game will play or contradiction in the rules. You are massively over reacting. Follow the rules for both. If you move you can move 12" and take dangerous terrain rolls in difficult terrain but you can choose to move as normal if you want.

[Gentlemanloser]

And the answer "well it doesn't matter as there isn't one in the game" is a cop out.

 

I'm done. Other people are explaining why you can't have multiple unit types better than I, and no one who supports multiple unit types is even bothering trying to explain how they work.

 

Pax!

[Captain Idaho]

You must have me on ignore because I have answered your question at least twice.

 

And no one is saying multiple unit types is ideal, but it isn't fundamentally preventing you from playing 40k. Just apply both rules, so you can fire as infantry and a MC.

 

It's not a disaster.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't have any one on ignore. ;) But the question hasn't been asnwered. I'll try to explain it better. And specifically for the NDK this time.

 

Jump Infantry don't have Relentless, and can't fire more than one Weapon.

 

MC have Relentless and can fire more than one weapon.

 

Which rule do you use for a Jump Infantry/MC? The MC ones? Why? Then you're ignoring the JI rules. The JI rules? Why? Then you're ignoring the MC rules.

 

Which takes precedent?

 

Obviously, you want the MC rules, as they're better than the JI ones. But that's just cherry picking. You also want the move of JI, as they're better than the MC ones. Again, that's just cherry picking.

 

How many dice does a JI/MC roll for difficult terrain?

 

If you're cherry picking the 'best' set of rules, then a MC/JI can ride in the SR, as the JI can. Doesn't matter that the MC can't....

 

See the problem?

[Whitefireinferno]

Why not just play it like the FAQ WILL make it? you know a MC that moves like jump infantry and has a 1 time 30 inch non scout usable move instead of trying to weasel every ounce of cheese from the codex.

 

or you could play the best of both worlds and have nobody to play with after it jumps out of a Raven.

[Judaz]

I love the stubborn discussions on the internet!

You guys all have the 'fearless' trait. No retreat, no surrender. I love it!

 

OT: We all know how the stupid dreadknight is supposed to work. GW manages to drop the ball again with bad writing, no readthroughs and no editing. Everyone here should write angry e-mails to GW instead of arguing here on a forum.

 

 

And come on, it's this :) you are arguing about:

http://www.heavenlyhold.com/item_788/Custo...kle-Carrier.htm

[Brother Valerius]

There's no distinct RAW to allow them either.

 

You mean apart from the GK codex, where it explicitly says that a unit is an MC, and explicitly says that it is JI if it takes a personal teleporter, without saying that the latter negates the former.

 

The latter has to replace the former, it is fundamental to how the game works. A unit cannot have more than a single unit type.

 

That's you applying a layer of interpretation onto the rules. I'm speaking strictly about RAW.

 

Gentlemanloser, you keep complaining that nobody is answering your question, even though Captain Idaho is. More importantly, though, your question is irrelevant. The RAW doesn't care if you can explain how a situation works. Your insistence that people have to explain how multiple unit types should work is a major fallacy on your part.

 

Whitefireinferno... nobody in this thread actually thinks that it should be played as both MC and JI simultaneously. We all agree that it should be played the way you describe. However, that isn't going to be good enough for some RAW purists out there in the world, who will claim that it is JI and is no longer an MC. Some of us are saying that the best way to fight those people is to fight fire with fire, and point out that a strict reading of the rules says that the DK is both MC and JI. This is about having a good way to shut down someone who wants to ignore the obvious intention of the rule, not trying to bend the rules for maximum cheese.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't have any one on ignore. :) But the question hasn't been asnwered. I'll try to explain it better. And specifically for the NDK this time.

 

Jump Infantry don't have Relentless, and can't fire more than one Weapon.

 

MC have Relentless and can fire more than one weapon.

 

Which rule do you use for a Jump Infantry/MC? The MC ones? Why? Then you're ignoring the JI rules. The JI rules? Why? Then you're ignoring the MC rules.

 

Which takes precedent?

 

Obviously, you want the MC rules, as they're better than the JI ones. But that's just cherry picking. You also want the move of JI, as they're better than the MC ones. Again, that's just cherry picking.

 

How many dice does a JI/MC roll for difficult terrain?

 

If you're cherry picking the 'best' set of rules, then a MC/JI can ride in the SR, as the JI can. Doesn't matter that the MC can't....

 

See the problem?

 

What's wrong with cherry picking though? You are paying 75pts to have that option to "cherry pick" so it's hardly unfair. Especially as you aren't giving yourself an unfair advantage as everyone knows it's supposed to be played as a flying MC.

 

There are no rules against choosing the best options available. It's like a Missile Launcher; you can choose the best type of missile to fire. If you can do 2 things you naturally choose the best option.

 

And I can't imagine any of this discussion is even neccessary really. I mean, will anyone really force you to play it as a JI model anyway? I bet we don't hear of it once. Just like the Vindicator being Ordnance 1 - everyone still allowed for it to fire with a large blast template and I've never heard anyone complain about it even before it was FAQed.

[Gentlemanloser]

To be honest, I don't really care about the NDK here. :(

 

I'm just still discussing the opinion that you can mix Unit types. :)

 

There are no rules against choosing the best options available. It's like a Missile Launcher; you can choose the best type of missile to fire. If you can do 2 things you naturally choose the best option.

 

So you agree, that currently, playing a NDK with a PT making it both MC and JI will allow it to embark on a Stormraven?

 

That's the problem with cherry picking conflicting rule sets. ;)

 

Gentlemanloser, you keep complaining that nobody is answering your question, even though Captain Idaho is. More importantly, though, your question is irrelevant. The RAW doesn't care if you can explain how a situation works. Your insistence that people have to explain how multiple unit types should work is a major fallacy on your part.

 

Not at all. I continue to highlight how the fundamental game breaks when you mix unit types. You need houserules to fix that, and you're then no longer plaiyng 40k. That's the point.

 

And no one has answered how mixed unit types work. Choosing the best option from all of them is just a houserule.

[Grimtooth]

To be honest, I don't really care about the NDK here. :cuss

 

I'm just still discussing the opinion that you can mix Unit types. :P

 

There are no rules against choosing the best options available. It's like a Missile Launcher; you can choose the best type of missile to fire. If you can do 2 things you naturally choose the best option.

 

So you agree, that currently, playing a NDK with a PT making it both MC and JI will allow it to embark on a Stormraven?

 

That's the problem with cherry picking conflicting rule sets. :cuss

 

Gentlemanloser, you keep complaining that nobody is answering your question, even though Captain Idaho is. More importantly, though, your question is irrelevant. The RAW doesn't care if you can explain how a situation works. Your insistence that people have to explain how multiple unit types should work is a major fallacy on your part.

 

Not at all. I continue to highlight how the fundamental game breaks when you mix unit types. You need houserules to fix that, and you're then no longer plaiyng 40k. That's the point.

 

And no one has answered how mixed unit types work. Choosing the best option from all of them is just a houserule.

 

And you won't get an answer.

 

Until the FAQ changes the wording, GK players have to make a choice:

 

1. Play with a fast moving, relatively hard hitting robot slower rate of fire robot with an easy ccover save.

 

Or

 

2. Play with a slower, hard hitting, high rate of fire robot with a hard to get cover save.

 

ANY other option is only a houserule that is not up to just the GK player to make, but also his opponent.

[Grimtooth]

And Idaho, points cost is not a valid argument.

 

As written, you pay 75pts for a 30" shunt, 12" movement, ability to deepstrike, easier cover save, and embarking on a Storm Raven. Not too bad for 75pts.

[Justcar]

I don't think that anyone here is trying to put dreadknights in stormravens. That's just stupid.

[muadib02]

It can already deep strike.

 

As well an FAQ is technically just GWs internal house rules

and at the end of the day whitefireinferno makes the best point...there is no solution to this because there is no RAW (due to the fact that there is nothing written on having more than one unit type or not) so play it how GW will make it... because we all know what is going to happen.

 

And if someone puts their Dreadknight in a storm raven becuase they claim it is Jump Infantry and not a monstrous creature...im gone...game is over

[Chairman_woo]

I don't think that anyone here is trying to put dreadknights in stormravens. That's just stupid.

 

They are basicaly argueing semantics for sport by this point (tho its not impossible some of us will encounter the odd player that might actually try to argue this in the "real" world), the stormraven/DK is mostly just a very usefull example for people to demonstrate their arguements with.

 

My opinion is the same as with all things like this, RAW as a concept is absurd and impossible to justify in reductionist terms. But I do totally understand the appeal of argueing for sport, and whats a forum for anyway if one cant have a semi pointless but none the less constructive and intelligent debate?

[Brother Valerius]

They are basicaly argueing semantics for sport by this point.... But I do totally understand the appeal of argueing for sport, and whats a forum for anyway if one cant have a semi pointless but none the less constructive and intelligent debate?

 

You are right in every respect, brother.

[Grimtooth]

Arguing semantics would be like saying that a Wolf Lord on a TWM is allowed to join another Wolf Lord on a TWM despite the rules entry specifically saying he can only join TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.

 

There is no semantics isssue in this case. It flat out says it is jump infantry. The creation of this new mythical mixed unit type JI/MC is just people trying to cope with the RAW.

[Marshal van Trapp]

ok, so i got my codex, i read it over, and i see the fabled issue at last the DK is a Monsterous creature, and a personal teleporter says: "a unit with personal teleporters are jump infantry" even though yes technically you cannot have a mixed unit type, it is also 2 contradicting statements, most Jump Packs say thet the unit becomes jump infantry, not that it IS when you add it, this implies it is infact BOTH unit types at the same time, which, as stated is not possible, thus until this unit is FAQd then technically RAW-wise you cannot give the DK a personal teleporter because it contradicts itself and becomes something not in the 40k universe, thus a completely illegal selection type

 

EDIT: i'd also like to point out the fact that once upon a time you could call the GW customer service hotline for rulings, if your opponent doesn't listen to the people who represent the makers of the game, then they clearly should not be playing >.>

[Brother Valerius]

Arguing semantics would be like saying that a Wolf Lord on a TWM is allowed to join another Wolf Lord on a TWM despite the rules entry specifically saying he can only join TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.

 

There is no semantics isssue in this case. It flat out says it is jump infantry. The creation of this new mythical mixed unit type JI/MC is just people trying to cope with the RAW.

 

Brother Ramses, you are mistaken. It is RAW, just RAW that has ugly consequences. For it to not be RAW, there would have to be a rule which explicitly states a unit can only have one type. There isn't (or at least, no one has been able to find one in all this discussion). This argument of "there's no rule which says it can have two types at once" is completely off the point. Rules say A applies, rules say B applies. That means that unless there is a rule explicitly forbidding it, A+B applies. Your position is like arguing that a unit which has a power weapon also cannot get a bonus attack from two weapons, because there is no explicit rule saying that you can get both bonuses at once.

 

I don't believe it's the right way to play the game, but it's still RAW.

[Grimtooth]

Arguing semantics would be like saying that a Wolf Lord on a TWM is allowed to join another Wolf Lord on a TWM despite the rules entry specifically saying he can only join TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.

 

There is no semantics isssue in this case. It flat out says it is jump infantry. The creation of this new mythical mixed unit type JI/MC is just people trying to cope with the RAW.

 

Brother Ramses, you are mistaken. It is RAW, just RAW that has ugly consequences. For it to not be RAW, there would have to be a rule which explicitly states a unit can only have one type. There isn't (or at least, no one has been able to find one in all this discussion). This argument of "there's no rule which says it can have two types at once" is completely off the point. Rules say A applies, rules say B applies. That means that unless there is a rule explicitly forbidding it, A+B applies. Your position is like arguing that a unit which has a power weapon also cannot get a bonus attack from two weapons, because there is no explicit rule saying that you can get both bonuses at once.

 

I don't believe it's the right way to play the game, but it's still RAW.

 

Actually page 4 clearly sets the unit types in stone for the game of Warhammer 40k. In the first paragraph:

 

UNIT TYPES

 

In order to make it easier to learn the basic rules, the first few sections of the book, covering Movement, Shooting, Assault, and Morale are written with respect to infantry units, because these are by far the most common unit type in the game. The other types of unit are also defined here and then explained in full detail later in specific sections that cover their unique rules. The unit types in Warhammer 40,000 are as follows:

 

The units types in Warhammer 40k are DEFINED and ARE AS FOLLOWS! Where in those two pages of DEFINED unit types of Warhammer 40k do you see Monstrous Creature/Jump Infantry? That opening statement and then the specific DEFINED list of unit types is what prevents you from creating a new unit type of MC/JI.

 

Codex GK follows the rules as set by the BRB by saying that a unit with personal teleporters are JI, a DEFINED unit type in Warhammer 40k. Now please, explain how a MC/JI unit is created outside the DEFINED unit types of Warhammer 40k. By all means please do. I have provided the RAW evidence from Codex GK and now the RAW evidence for the DEFINED unit types of Warhammer 40k.

 

 

 

 

If you didn't get the hint, DEFINED!