Dreadknight teleporter

[Marshal van Trapp]

ok i understand that better, i was inferring what you said as simply it is JI because it is applied last, if you're saying its JI because the PT says it is then it makes more sense, the only problem is past usage of unit type changes, in the past GW has used the word BECOMES for grammer's sake for a change in unit type, but it never said a unit has to have only one unit type, it just says a unit fits into one of those categories, but if a unit fits into more than one category does it follow the rules for one both or neither, the problem is purely grammatical on GW's part, they don't explicitly say that it is no longer a MC even though it is now JI, which IMHO is the reason for the problem

 

logically yes it has to be one or the other, it CANNOT be both, what i'm saying is GRAMMATICALLY it is both, because it don't not use a word that means to replace, such as becomes, or replace, or changes to

 

i agree with you that the most logical idea for RAW is that it is JI but then what about the MC label? you cannot say it is overridden simply because the PT says it is JI, because it was still a MC first and thus it still has a unit type already attached to it

 

my problem with your argument is that if it cannot have 2 unit types then it cannot be given another unit type, thus it would stay MC instead of BECOMING JI, because its original unit type is MC, it cannot be modified by giving it another unit type, it has to have the new unit type replace the old but the PT doesn't say REPLACE its unit type, it just says that it is, which you cannot use to justify that its a JI because by your logic then it has to stay a MC because it was a MC first and cannot have a new unit type unless it replaces the old unit type

[Zagman]

There is nothing in the BRB which precludes a unit from having multiple unit types. To my knowledge this is unprecedented. The language used by GW creates this situation. A dreadkngiht follows the rules for Monstrous Creatures, a Dreadknight also follows the rules for Jump Infantry.

 

As per the BRB a MC acts as infatnry with a few exceptions:

 

Movement:

Move Through Cover

 

Shooting:

May fire 2 weapons

Cannot Go to Ground

50% required for Cover

 

Assault:

Ignore Armor

2d6 Armor Penetration

 

Jump Infantry act as infantry with the following exceptions:

 

Movement:

May move 12"

Required DT tests

May Deep Strike

3d6 Fallback

 

A model with MC and JI acts as infantry with the following exceptions:

 

Movement:

Move Through Cover

May move 12"

Required DT tests

May Deep Strike

3d6 Fallback

 

Shooting:

May fire 2 weapons

Cannot Go to Ground

50% required for Cover

 

Assault:

Ignore Armor

2d6 Armor Penetration

 

Following the basic rules for unit types there is no inherent conflict. The only potential problems are specific rules which may cause confusion.

 

To answer a question, "can a PT DK ride in a storm raven?". The answer is no, it cannot because it is a MC and MCs cannon embark in transports as per the BRB. A PT DK has to follow the rules of both Unit Types and therefore cannot Embark in a Transport becasue a storm raven allows JI to emark, but does not also allow MCs to embark.

 

Granted, there may be some situations that come up which will require an FAQ to clear up, but most are solved by following the rules for the corresponding unit type(s) involved.

[Gentlemanloser]

To answer a question, "can a PT DK ride in a storm raven?". The answer is no, it cannot because it is a MC and MCs cannon embark in transports as per the BRB. A PT DK has to follow the rules of both Unit Types and therefore cannot Embark in a Transport becasue a storm raven allows JI to emark, but does not also allow MCs to embark.

 

This is the problem.

 

Following this logic, the NDK no longer gets the extra d6 pen, isn't relentless becuase JI can't do that. Just like MC can't embark.

 

The NDK also can't ever move 12", as MC does not allow it.

[yperihitikos]

According to your way of deciding what to do with Dreadknights and Stormravens, when you decide to embark or not you treat both unit types as separate types and both have to have the same result because from that point of view the rules are clear and everything is answered. But you ignore that you cause problems with other squads that were ok before. Interceptor squads are infantry in the army selection page. As others said, the rule doesn't say "become" meaning it maintains its previous unit type. So, an interseptor squad is both types infantry/jump infantry and both rules should apply. Please tell me, how many interceptors can embark in the Stormraven. Why should I apply the worst of both rules for my squad or even be unable to embark at all because there is a grey area in the rules?

 

The rule for the jump packs in every marine codex says that "models equiped with jump packs are jump infantry". They don't say "become". At least in Blood Angels and Space Wolves codex. If you don;t believe me, open the books and read the rule. Until this codex everyone would treat the equipment as if it ignored the previous unit type. Noone claimed that a model with jump packs would be both types claiming that the rule doesn't explains what happens to the previous unit type. When you are equiped with it you are Jump Infantry. The same applies to the Dreadknight.

[Zagman]

To answer a question, "can a PT DK ride in a storm raven?". The answer is no, it cannot because it is a MC and MCs cannon embark in transports as per the BRB. A PT DK has to follow the rules of both Unit Types and therefore cannot Embark in a Transport becasue a storm raven allows JI to emark, but does not also allow MCs to embark.

 

This is the problem.

 

Following this logic, the NDK no longer gets the extra d6 pen, isn't relentless becuase JI can't do that. Just like MC can't embark.

 

The NDK also can't ever move 12", as MC does not allow it.

 

Incorrect. The Unit type rules for each states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." +d6 armor pen is one of those rules. Nothing in the JI entry says you cannot have extra armor pen. Both entries create a list of exceptions to the infantry rule. MCs are not allowed to embark, it has not lost MC, therefore it cannot enter a transport. The DK is still relentless, no where in the JI Unit type entry does it state "cannot be relentless". The list is inclusive, and anything not allowed to "Infantry" but allowed to JI or MC is overwritten.

 

Interceptors are Infantry which follow all of the exceptions for JI. Since JI only modify "Infantry" they are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects. There is only an issue with DK since they have two sets of modifications to "Infantry". They would take up two slots in an SR.

 

The Unit type entries modify the template "Infantry". There are not any inherent conflicts to applying both sets of modifications.

[Zagman]

According to your way of deciding what to do with Dreadknights and Stormravens, when you decide to embark or not you treat both unit types as separate types and both have to have the same result because from that point of view the rules are clear and everything is answered. But you ignore that you cause problems with other squads that were ok before. Interceptor squads are infantry in the army selection page. As others said, the rule doesn't say "become" meaning it maintains its previous unit type. So, an interseptor squad is both types infantry/jump infantry and both rules should apply. Please tell me, how many interceptors can embark in the Stormraven. Why should I apply the worst of both rules for my squad or even be unable to embark at all because there is a grey area in the rules?

 

The rule for the jump packs in every marine codex says that "models equiped with jump packs are jump infantry". They don't say "become". At least in Blood Angels and Space Wolves codex. If you don;t believe me, open the books and read the rule. Until this codex everyone would treat the equipment as if it ignored the previous unit type. Noone claimed that a model with jump packs would be both types claiming that the rule doesn't explains what happens to the previous unit type. When you are equiped with it you are Jump Infantry. The same applies to the Dreadknight.

 

Read the Unit Types entry in the BRB. It states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." You apply all modification supplied under MC and JI, none of which are in conflict because they both modify "Infantry" which creates a new set of rules for the MC/JI type.

 

When this is done with Interceptors or Jump pack troops they only have JI which modifies Infantry. There is no problem, they are effectively JI. The only potential problem is when you have two non "Infantry" unit types.

[Grimtooth]

According to your way of deciding what to do with Dreadknights and Stormravens, when you decide to embark or not you treat both unit types as separate types and both have to have the same result because from that point of view the rules are clear and everything is answered. But you ignore that you cause problems with other squads that were ok before. Interceptor squads are infantry in the army selection page. As others said, the rule doesn't say "become" meaning it maintains its previous unit type. So, an interseptor squad is both types infantry/jump infantry and both rules should apply. Please tell me, how many interceptors can embark in the Stormraven. Why should I apply the worst of both rules for my squad or even be unable to embark at all because there is a grey area in the rules?

 

The rule for the jump packs in every marine codex says that "models equiped with jump packs are jump infantry". They don't say "become". At least in Blood Angels and Space Wolves codex. If you don;t believe me, open the books and read the rule. Until this codex everyone would treat the equipment as if it ignored the previous unit type. Noone claimed that a model with jump packs would be both types claiming that the rule doesn't explains what happens to the previous unit type. When you are equiped with it you are Jump Infantry. The same applies to the Dreadknight.

 

Read the Unit Types entry in the BRB. It states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." You apply all modification supplied under MC and JI, none of which are in conflict because they both modify "Infantry" which creates a new set of rules for the MC/JI type.

 

When this is done with Interceptors or Jump pack troops they only have JI which modifies Infantry. There is no problem, they are effectively JI. The only potential problem is when you have two non "Infantry" unit types.

 

Your own theory destroys your argument.

 

Under the unit type entries it does indeed say,

 

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry."

 

Nowwhere does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry.

 

So while you keep insisting on that their are no conflicts between MC and JI and therefore are allowed to combine them, you are never given permission to make that check for conflicts in the first place to try to combine them.

 

As the rules say, the base set of rules is infantry with the exceptions given under each unit type. Each as in singular. You have no permission to combine and check for conflicts.

 

Also your argument completely ignores the clearly defined unit types of Warhammer 40k of which there is no MC/JI hybrid listed.

[Gentlemanloser]

Incorrect. The Unit type rules for each states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." +d6 armor pen is one of those rules. Nothing in the JI entry says you cannot have extra armor pen. Both entries create a list of exceptions to the infantry rule. MCs are not allowed to embark, it has not lost MC, therefore it cannot enter a transport. The DK is still relentless, no where in the JI Unit type entry does it state "cannot be relentless". The list is inclusive, and anything not allowed to "Infantry" but allowed to JI or MC is overwritten.

 

The JI entry says follow the Infantry entry for extra armour pen. Infantry don't get the extra d6, so JI don't get the extra d6. Therefore MC giving the extra d6 is a direct contradiction with the JI/Infantry rules.

 

Same applies to Relentless...

 

Interceptors are Infantry which follow all of the exceptions for JI. Since JI only modify "Infantry" they are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects. There is only an issue with DK since they have two sets of modifications to "Infantry". They would take up two slots in an SR.

 

You're missing the point that Interceptors sohuld be both Infantry *and* JI. And not just JI in all respects.

 

The Unit type entries modify the template "Infantry". There are not any inherent conflicts to applying both sets of modifications.

 

Yes, there are.

 

Edit;

 

Let me try to explain myself a little better.

 

The basic unit type rules are Infantry. These cover;

 

Movement

Shooting

Assault

Etc

 

If you have a JI unit, that have unit type rules based upon the Infatry basics, but some are amended, as listed above. Lets' amend the basic rules for ease and call them;

 

JI Movement (12" over Infantry's 6", etc, etc)

JI Shooting

JI Assault

 

That's fine, and works perfectly. No need to duplicate similar rules. Saves sapce and streamlines the rules.

 

The problem is when you try to claim a unit is both Infantry *and* JI. Thier rules set would look like;

 

Movement / JI Movment

Shooting / JI Shooting

Assault / JI Assault

 

And here we see this mixed type unit has a conflict in it's movement rules (But no conflict with it's shooting or assault rules). The Infantry rules it *has* to follow aren't compatible with the JI Movement rules is also *has* to follow.

 

There is no way they can work in concert with each other, and there is no way to prioritse which set of rules (or partial set of rules) you take.

 

You now need to houserule all this, and turn 40k away from the game it is written as.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Your own theory destroys your argument.

 

Under the unit type entries it does indeed say,

 

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry."

 

Nowwhere does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry.

you spelled nowhere wrong

 

actually this theory has more ground then yours, if something has multiple types it would make sense to reference both sections, but the problem is that the 2 types have contradictory statements in some of the sections, but while "(Nowhere) ...does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry" it also doesn't say anywhere that you cannot, this boils down to reasoning for other such issues in the world

 

prove to me that you exist, you can't, but i can't prove that you don't exist, so its a very grey area, i think its time for a mod to lock this discussion as there is no longer any ground being gained towards finding an answer and the only real answer that will count is when the FAQ comes out

 

also gentlemanloser you're over thinking the situation too much, i think the bottom line is, its a game, if you don't want to have fun and want to rules lawyer, then don't play, cause there are people in the world who just want to have fun playing 40k

[yperihitikos]

According to your way of deciding what to do with Dreadknights and Stormravens, when you decide to embark or not you treat both unit types as separate types and both have to have the same result because from that point of view the rules are clear and everything is answered. But you ignore that you cause problems with other squads that were ok before. Interceptor squads are infantry in the army selection page. As others said, the rule doesn't say "become" meaning it maintains its previous unit type. So, an interseptor squad is both types infantry/jump infantry and both rules should apply. Please tell me, how many interceptors can embark in the Stormraven. Why should I apply the worst of both rules for my squad or even be unable to embark at all because there is a grey area in the rules?

 

The rule for the jump packs in every marine codex says that "models equiped with jump packs are jump infantry". They don't say "become". At least in Blood Angels and Space Wolves codex. If you don;t believe me, open the books and read the rule. Until this codex everyone would treat the equipment as if it ignored the previous unit type. Noone claimed that a model with jump packs would be both types claiming that the rule doesn't explains what happens to the previous unit type. When you are equiped with it you are Jump Infantry. The same applies to the Dreadknight.

 

Read the Unit Types entry in the BRB. It states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." You apply all modification supplied under MC and JI, none of which are in conflict because they both modify "Infantry" which creates a new set of rules for the MC/JI type.

 

When this is done with Interceptors or Jump pack troops they only have JI which modifies Infantry. There is no problem, they are effectively JI. The only potential problem is when you have two non "Infantry" unit types.

 

 

As I stated, if you claim that the jump infantry is added next to the previous unit type then you have to accept that the unit of interceptors is infantry/jump infantry for the same reason it would be monstrous creature/jump infantry.

 

There is a diffrence between following the rules for infantry and being an infantry type. An infantry model takes one slot, while a jump infantry two. A model being infantry/jump infantry cannot enter at all, because they are not in the list of permitted models. You can't say that infantry type is included in jump infantry type, so we keep the jump infantry type. Nothing in the BRB allows you to take such decisions on your own.

 

You either have to accept that every model with jump packs or personal teleporters is two types at once or you have to accept that the equiped wargear enforce you to follow specific rules. In our example, whenever you see on the board models with these devices you open the book, you search the rules for the devices and you follow them no matter how much unpleasing they may be. In our example you are jump infantry either you like it or not.

[Zagman]

According to your way of deciding what to do with Dreadknights and Stormravens, when you decide to embark or not you treat both unit types as separate types and both have to have the same result because from that point of view the rules are clear and everything is answered. But you ignore that you cause problems with other squads that were ok before. Interceptor squads are infantry in the army selection page. As others said, the rule doesn't say "become" meaning it maintains its previous unit type. So, an interseptor squad is both types infantry/jump infantry and both rules should apply. Please tell me, how many interceptors can embark in the Stormraven. Why should I apply the worst of both rules for my squad or even be unable to embark at all because there is a grey area in the rules?

 

The rule for the jump packs in every marine codex says that "models equiped with jump packs are jump infantry". They don't say "become". At least in Blood Angels and Space Wolves codex. If you don;t believe me, open the books and read the rule. Until this codex everyone would treat the equipment as if it ignored the previous unit type. Noone claimed that a model with jump packs would be both types claiming that the rule doesn't explains what happens to the previous unit type. When you are equiped with it you are Jump Infantry. The same applies to the Dreadknight.

 

Read the Unit Types entry in the BRB. It states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." You apply all modification supplied under MC and JI, none of which are in conflict because they both modify "Infantry" which creates a new set of rules for the MC/JI type.

 

When this is done with Interceptors or Jump pack troops they only have JI which modifies Infantry. There is no problem, they are effectively JI. The only potential problem is when you have two non "Infantry" unit types.

 

Your own theory destroys your argument.

 

Under the unit type entries it does indeed say,

 

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry."

 

Nowwhere does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry.

 

So while you keep insisting on that their are no conflicts between MC and JI and therefore are allowed to combine them, you are never given permission to make that check for conflicts in the first place to try to combine them.

 

As the rules say, the base set of rules is infantry with the exceptions given under each unit type. Each as in singular. You have no permission to combine and check for conflicts.

 

Also your argument completely ignores the clearly defined unit types of Warhammer 40k of which there is no MC/JI hybrid listed.

 

You follow the rules for Infantry. Having a unit type other than infantry modifies the "Infantry rule set". Jump infantry do not have relentless or armor pen rules therefore defaulting to the "Infantry" set. MC does have rules for Relentless and Armor Pen which consequently modify the Infantry set. Think of it a Venn diagram with three overlapping circles. The center triple overlap is our MC/JI Hybrid, now apply priorty based upon the special unit types overwriting the Infantry rule set and you have your solution.

 

The special unit types are clearly meant to overwrite the Infantry rules. Hence, "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry." And there are not any conflict for using both the MC and JI rules as they are additive rules and overwrite the passive Infantry Template.

 

Infantry/Jump Infantry unit is completely identical to Jump infantry in practical application.

 

The only problems arise when there are powers which target a certain unit time, or grant immunity to another. IE JI in storm raven, which since it is still an MC and follows all of the rules for and MC. Another such example is JoWW, which can target a PTDK. It specifically states it can target a MC and no where grants immunity to JI. Therefore, it would be able to target a PTDK.

 

I understand there are clearly defined unit types, but the codex ignored that with its language. Neither does the BRB prohibit this multiple unity type scenario without going RAI(which is what you are doing). I'm using the rules, as they are written to explain how tis works. Not to mention it coincides with what makes sense and the designers logically intended.

[Gentlemanloser]

Jump infantry do not have relentless or armor pen rules therefore defaulting to the "Infantry" set. MC does have rules for Relentless and Armor Pen which consequently modify the Infantry set.

 

Why are you applying JI first?

 

Apply the MC first, so you get extra pen and Relentless.

 

Then apply the JI changes, which default back to Infatry and you lose it.

 

Edit: If you say JI doesn't change this, as it refers back to Infantry and Infantry's already been changed by the MC status, that's not following the rules. If you want to see how JI shoot, and the unit entry state it follow Infantry rules, you follow the Infantry rules. Not Infantry rules superceeded by the MC rules. As that would be JI following the MC rules for shooting.

 

Which isn't RAW anywhere.

 

Infantry/Jump Infantry unit is completely identical to Jump infantry in practical application.

 

Apart form the Infantry rules for movement, which give you a maximum 6" move...

[Grimtooth]

Your own theory destroys your argument.

 

Under the unit type entries it does indeed say,

 

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry."

 

Nowwhere does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry.

you spelled nowhere wrong

 

actually this theory has more ground then yours, if something has multiple types it would make sense to reference both sections, but the problem is that the 2 types have contradictory statements in some of the sections, but while "(Nowhere) ...does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry" it also doesn't say anywhere that you cannot, this boils down to reasoning for other such issues in the world

 

prove to me that you exist, you can't, but i can't prove that you don't exist, so its a very grey area, i think its time for a mod to lock this discussion as there is no longer any ground being gained towards finding an answer and the only real answer that will count is when the FAQ comes out

 

also gentlemanloser you're over thinking the situation too much, i think the bottom line is, its a game, if you don't want to have fun and want to rules lawyer, then don't play, cause there are people in the world who just want to have fun playing 40k

 

Does it really?

 

I can point to the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k in the BRB, of which there is not combined JI/MC.

 

I can point to the specific entry that a unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

Care to cite your MC/JI unit in the BRB or the Gk Codex?

 

And attacking spelling now? Getting desperate? I was posting from my Droid while watching tv if you need to know and an extra "w" in a word is really not so big of a deal that I want to hit edit and redo it on a small screened phone.

 

 

According to your way of deciding what to do with Dreadknights and Stormravens, when you decide to embark or not you treat both unit types as separate types and both have to have the same result because from that point of view the rules are clear and everything is answered. But you ignore that you cause problems with other squads that were ok before. Interceptor squads are infantry in the army selection page. As others said, the rule doesn't say "become" meaning it maintains its previous unit type. So, an interseptor squad is both types infantry/jump infantry and both rules should apply. Please tell me, how many interceptors can embark in the Stormraven. Why should I apply the worst of both rules for my squad or even be unable to embark at all because there is a grey area in the rules?

 

The rule for the jump packs in every marine codex says that "models equiped with jump packs are jump infantry". They don't say "become". At least in Blood Angels and Space Wolves codex. If you don;t believe me, open the books and read the rule. Until this codex everyone would treat the equipment as if it ignored the previous unit type. Noone claimed that a model with jump packs would be both types claiming that the rule doesn't explains what happens to the previous unit type. When you are equiped with it you are Jump Infantry. The same applies to the Dreadknight.

 

Read the Unit Types entry in the BRB. It states "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules for infantry." You apply all modification supplied under MC and JI, none of which are in conflict because they both modify "Infantry" which creates a new set of rules for the MC/JI type.

 

When this is done with Interceptors or Jump pack troops they only have JI which modifies Infantry. There is no problem, they are effectively JI. The only potential problem is when you have two non "Infantry" unit types.

 

Your own theory destroys your argument.

 

Under the unit type entries it does indeed say,

 

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry."

 

Nowwhere does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry.

 

So while you keep insisting on that their are no conflicts between MC and JI and therefore are allowed to combine them, you are never given permission to make that check for conflicts in the first place to try to combine them.

 

As the rules say, the base set of rules is infantry with the exceptions given under each unit type. Each as in singular. You have no permission to combine and check for conflicts.

 

Also your argument completely ignores the clearly defined unit types of Warhammer 40k of which there is no MC/JI hybrid listed.

 

You follow the rules for Infantry. Having a unit type other than infantry modifies the "Infantry rule set". Jump infantry do not have relentless or armor pen rules therefore defaulting to the "Infantry" set. MC does have rules for Relentless and Armor Pen which consequently modify the Infantry set. Think of it a Venn diagram with three overlapping circles. The center triple overlap is our MC/JI Hybrid, now apply priorty based upon the special unit types overwriting the Infantry rule set and you have your solution.

 

The special unit types are clearly meant to overwrite the Infantry rules. Hence, "Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry." And there are not any conflict for using both the MC and JI rules as they are additive rules and overwrite the passive Infantry Template.

 

Infantry/Jump Infantry unit is completely identical to Jump infantry in practical application.

 

The only problems arise when there are powers which target a certain unit time, or grant immunity to another. IE JI in storm raven, which since it is still an MC and follows all of the rules for and MC. Another such example is JoWW, which can target a PTDK. It specifically states it can target a MC and no where grants immunity to JI. Therefore, it would be able to target a PTDK.

 

I understand there are clearly defined unit types, but the codex ignored that with its language. Neither does the BRB prohibit this multiple unity type scenario without going RAI(which is what you are doing). I'm using the rules, as they are written to explain how tis works. Not to mention it coincides with what makes sense and the designers logically intended.

 

Except you are not.

 

If I break down your theory:

 

You create an illegal unit type, MC/JI.

 

You check said illegal unit type for conflicts of which you don't even have the permission to create in the first place.

 

You check said illegal unit combination against the infantry rule set despite it specifying the singular and specifying the singular unit type entry.

 

So please, show me where you have the permission to even do any of those things, from the get go. I know I can when a dreadknight with teleporter is jump infantry, without any of the conflicts you keep running into with your scenario.

[morgoth]

Sorry, but this is bordering on foolishness. DreadKnight, with a personal teleporter, is a MC that moves like JI, just like Bloodthirsters or Winged Hive Tyrants. I will admit that this codex is pretty poorly written, leaving much open to interpretation, i.e. Coteaz.

[confused_gordy]

How about we lay this one to rest.

 

No one in their right mind is going to tell you that a dreadknight can be transported by a storm raven untill GW creates the rule in an FAQ (which we all know they probably wont)

 

No one in their right mind is going to tell you that a dreadknight looses its ability to roll 2 dice for armour pen, or ignore armour saves or be relentless, because it can now teleport.

 

No one in their right mind is going to let you off not rolling a dangerous terrain test if you teleport into a wood

 

Untill its FAQed just treat it like any sensible person will, all over the world, and say it "moves like jump infantry".

 

The only reason to argue it either way, is if you are being a (insert rather mean word here), and ignoring the first rule of 40k "have fun".

[Marshal van Trapp]

Your own theory destroys your argument.

 

Under the unit type entries it does indeed say,

 

"Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the rules for infantry."

 

Nowwhere does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry.

you spelled nowhere wrong

 

actually this theory has more ground then yours, if something has multiple types it would make sense to reference both sections, but the problem is that the 2 types have contradictory statements in some of the sections, but while "(Nowhere) ...does it tell you that you are allowed to follow other any unit type other then infantry" it also doesn't say anywhere that you cannot, this boils down to reasoning for other such issues in the world

 

prove to me that you exist, you can't, but i can't prove that you don't exist, so its a very grey area, i think its time for a mod to lock this discussion as there is no longer any ground being gained towards finding an answer and the only real answer that will count is when the FAQ comes out

 

also gentlemanloser you're over thinking the situation too much, i think the bottom line is, its a game, if you don't want to have fun and want to rules lawyer, then don't play, cause there are people in the world who just want to have fun playing 40k

 

Does it really?

 

I can point to the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k in the BRB, of which there is not combined JI/MC.

 

I can point to the specific entry that a unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

Care to cite your MC/JI unit in the BRB or the Gk Codex?

 

And attacking spelling now? Getting desperate? I was posting from my Droid while watching tv if you need to know and an extra "w" in a word is really not so big of a deal that I want to hit edit and redo it on a small screened phone.

 

yes well i can point to 2 different places in the same book that have 2 different unit types for the NDK

C:GK P34

under nemesis dreadknight it clearly says UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature

 

C:GK p28

Under interceptor squads, personal teleporter entry:

Units with a personal teleporter are Jump Infantry

 

so it has both, nowhere under the PT does it use the words BECOMES JUMP INFANTRY, so you cannot simply say "oh well the personal teleporter says its jump infantry so it has to be" cause its unit entry says that it is a MC

 

idk how many times i have to say this, but i agree with you that a MC/JI unit CANNOT EXIST, but that doesn't mean one replaces the other, the codex would have to say that it replaces the other unit type, and because it does not it is simply an illegal choice, not that you get to pick which unit type it is, it either remains a MC, because that is what the NDK unit entry says that it is, or it becomes a MC/JI which the codex would have to detail somewhere, which it doesn't

 

the only logical answer to the argument is then that it clearly doen't not change because it never says the JI type replaces the unit's original type

 

 

if you cannot agree with this reasoning, point out where in C:GK it says a PT replaces the original unit type with JI otherwise your argument is invalidated!

[Gentlemanloser]

also gentlemanloser you're over thinking the situation too much, i think the bottom line is, its a game, if you don't want to have fun and want to rules lawyer, then don't play, cause there are people in the world who just want to have fun playing 40k

 

:) Ad homenien?

 

I've already stated how I, and my group, will play it. My subjective fun has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

 

Again, I reiterate. By now, this isn't soley about the NDK. But the posibility that units exist of a mixed unit type. Which I claim doesn't and can't exist, as they fundamentally break 40K.

 

Edit: Oh I get a lot of fun and enjoyment from a good discussion. It passes the time either at work, or more recently waiting for my super glue to dry.

 

Completed so far;

 

1 NDK

1 Rhino

Kaldor Draigo

5 x Strike Squad (with Swords)

1 x Old PAGK with a new Halberd.

 

(I was pleasently surprised that there were in fact enough extra arms to let me - potentially - build an extra 3 GKs from my existing metal/kit bashed plastic ones. That fit quite nicely with the new plastic ones. ;) )

[Marshal van Trapp]

thank you gentlemanloser, i do believe you are right in that fact heh

[Zagman]

@Gentlemanloser

 

You are applying order to the units types, I'm arguing simultaneous coexistence. Both use type infantry as a base template, both MC and JI overwrite explicit sections of the unit type "Infantry". Neither MC nor JI contradict each other is this situation. You are applying type "Infantry" has priority over the other unit types which is explicitely not the case. All non vehicle models start off as Infantry, then based upon certain rules, namely Unit type overwrite those base Infantry rules. Take an object, modify certain varialbes due to Jump Infantry. Take object, modify certain varialbe due to MC. Reverse the Order Invantry < MC < JI gives you the same results since they each only overwrite only specific portions of the rules for Infantry.

 

 

But at the end of the day, this interpretation makes sense and is almost exactly the same as "Dreadknighs are MCs which move as Jump Infantry". Obviously this is what was intended, lets put this to rest and agree to disagree. If you want to play against someone and tell them that their DK is only Jump Infantry and cannot roll 2d6 armor pen, you are more than welcome to do that. I will play with the rules interpretation which makes sense and corresponds with RAI.

[Gentlemanloser]

I totally understand where you're coming from, and will happily agree to disagree if you don't want to carry on.

 

But I see the flaw in your reasoning above.

 

Take an object, modify certain varialbes due to Jump Infantry. Take object, modify certain varialbe due to MC. Reverse the Order Invantry < MC < JI gives you the same results since they each only overwrite only specific portions of the rules for Infantry.

 

This just isn't the case.

 

If you want a MC, you take Infantry and overwrite.

 

If you want JI you take Infantry and overwrite.

 

In the case above, you're taking a MC (overwirting the Infantry rules), then overwriting MC with JI. You're saying relentless doesn't matter as JI doesn't contradict that. It does.

 

If you want a JI, you take the whole Infantry rule and amend it. Among that is Infantry don't have Relentless (unless given by wargear, like TDA). You can't take a MC and overwrite the inherated Infantry portions of the MC rules with JI specific stuff.

 

Infantry don't have Relentless, JI don't have relentless.

 

I hope this explains my position a little better! :)

[Grimtooth]

Created a thread in OR forum since I could not get this one moved there. I figure leave the Ordos forum for the other stuff.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Seriously tough, it just seems like a classic screw-up from GW. Doesn't it also have DCCW and is not a veichle, hence actually striking last?

 

I remember that screw-up from wraithlord in 3rd ed Codex.

[Mazfrael]

My common sense points towards "Moves as Jump Infantry to be honest... I'll be appalled if the FAQ comes out and doesn't rectify this. I.E. Matt Ward allowed to have this work as written (Simultaneously Jump Infantry and MC). :D

[yperihitikos]

One final attempt.

 

-We open the Chaos space marines codex.

 

-In page 85 there are their special equipments.

 

-There we find "jump packs" and "wings". They are two different devices with their own rules.

 

-Under "Wings" we are told that "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the warhammer 40.000 rulebook." The rule is specific that it refers only to the way it will move. It doesn't say that it doesn't alter the unit type or that it does. It just says that you move it as one. As a result, a Monstrous Creature would still be one with the exception that it should move as a jump infantry. If the intention of the writer was a model with Personal Teleporter should move as jump infantry he would have copied this rule.

 

-But he didn't. He copied the rule for "Jump Packs". "Models equipped with jump packs are Jump Infantry, as described in the warhammer 40.000 rulebook." The difference between these rules is so clear that you can surely understand when you keep your previous unit type. A monstrous creature with Wings should move according to the rules for jump infantry. When it shoots or it's in close combat you use the monstrous creature rules. In contrast to Wings, a monstrous creature with jump packs isn't allowed to move, shoot or fight as jump infantry in its rules. It a simple says, when equipped, you are jump infantry, open the main rulebook and apply the rules for jump infantry.

 

-40k is a game. As every other game it has rules that you should follow no matter how silly or unrealistic the may be. The game is not a real life combat simulation. If you don't like the rules that the designers made houserule your own or wait for a FAQ. But if you want to play with other groups you have to follow the rules as written in the books.

[Grimtooth]

One final attempt.

 

-We open the Chaos space marines codex.

 

-In page 85 there are their special equipments.

 

-There we find "jump packs" and "wings". They are two different devices with their own rules.

 

-Under "Wings" we are told that "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the warhammer 40.000 rulebook." The rule is specific that it refers only to the way it will move. It doesn't say that it doesn't alter the unit type or that it does. It just says that you move it as one. As a result, a Monstrous Creature would still be one with the exception that it should move as a jump infantry. If the intention of the writer was a model with Personal Teleporter should move as jump infantry he would have copied this rule.

 

-But he didn't. He copied the rule for "Jump Packs". "Models equipped with jump packs are Jump Infantry, as described in the warhammer 40.000 rulebook." The difference between these rules is so clear that you can surely understand when you keep your previous unit type. A monstrous creature with Wings should move according to the rules for jump infantry. When it shoots or it's in close combat you use the monstrous creature rules. In contrast to Wings, a monstrous creature with jump packs isn't allowed to move, shoot or fight as jump infantry in its rules. It a simple says, when equipped, you are jump infantry, open the main rulebook and apply the rules for jump infantry.

 

-40k is a game. As every other game it has rules that you should follow no matter how silly or unrealistic the may be. The game is not a real life combat simulation. If you don't like the rules that the designers made houserule your own or wait for a FAQ. But if you want to play with other groups you have to follow the rules as written in the books.

 

The same example can be said for a Hive Tyrant with wings. The wings allow him to move as jump infantry, but do not make him jump infantry. He is a Monstreous Creature that moves as jump infantry.