So Lets Talk Paladins...

[Joasht]

There has been mentions of the Paladins all over the place, but nothing quite definitive. What are your opinions on them?

 

The Paladins are the true deathstar if there ever is one; a full squad is a tempting proposition, and with an attached IC, a squad can literally cost half your army. In fact, given the number of options that affect the entire squad (Apothecary, Psybolts, Banner) you are practically tempted to take the full squad. I'm sometimes surprised how some people never consider them; not that they are necessarily awesome (they might be, I need to test them first), but because they bring something MEQs have never had; Terminator "Nobz". We have had 2-wound model squads before, like Attack Bikes and Thunderwolf Cavalry, but they are both somewhat different. For one, they are fast and suffer from no mobility issues, and the Attack Bikes are a pure shooty unit, while the Thunderwolf Cavalry frankly aren't really Space Marines at all stat-wise. They just "happen to be" Space Marines on ....space wolves.

 

The Paladins however are Space Marine Terminators through-and-through but with two wounds. With access to Psybolts and up to four (!!!!) Psycannons in a full squad a single round of shooting can lay low many, many things. They are also not at all shabby in close combat, with a Brotherhood Banner, enough bodies and some master-crafted weapons (selectively I guess, mastercrafting everything costs far too much), they are one of the killiest choices in the army, although you do pay for that.

 

Given wound allocation shenanigans (which may/may not be "fixed" come 6th ed; I'm magnetizing all my Paladins in preparation :X) there is no reason not to make each Paladin unique, and thankfully, its not a difficult thing to do.

 

The issue here however is delivery;

1) Foot-slogging is stupidly slow.

2) LRs/SRs are expensive, and throwing an already-probably-at-least 300+ point squad into a 250 point transport is an awful lot of points in one basket. Sadly, its quite possibly the most viable and dependable route.

3) Deep striking. I've never liked Deep striking, to the point where even with Descent of Angels my BA army (well, its my DIY, but it has always counted as BA since 3rd ed) doesn't deep strike much. Its free, and if you take enough support (Mystics/Homers/Skulls) it can be dependable. Personally I'll still try and shove Mystics/Homers in, simply because that whole "D6 scatter" still means that *sometimes* things can still go wrong. The chance is a lot lower, but I guess its just my natural dislike for it which is, in a sense understandable; you don't want to lose your very expensive Paladins to one bad roll.

 

The issue here is that the LRs/SRs have limited capacity, and while 5 Paladins would already present a threat, it makes some of the options less worth it, especially the Apothecary. I'm not saying the upgrades become bad; the Apothecary helps mitigate the issue Terminators generally have; buckets of dice rolled against them, and that in itself is awesome. But it is also a very expensive upgrade. Deep Striking on the other hand becomes a little more difficult and risky the larger the squad gets.

 

EDIT: *Facepalm* I forgot the Chimera. Part of me is worried they would errata this so I've tried not to think about relying on it, but taking a simple Henchman squad and giving the Paladins the Chimera is another way to get things done.

 

How do you guys plan on running them? How many per squad? What method of transportation?

[thor1234]

I've been deep striking mine and it seems to work just fine to me, especailly with servoskulls nearby,

my experience of them so far has made me start doing a draigo army to get them as troops! they absolutley rock! as for equipment ive been running

a squad of 6 with 3 swords, 2 falchions and a staff with 1 psycannon and 1 incinerator and a squad of 5 with halberds and 1 psycannon and 1 incinerator they've done pretty weel every game, not once have they actually been wiped out!

 

they are my favourite unit of the new dex!

[Gentlemanloser]

I've not had the chance to run Pallies yet, but plan to Scout and footslog a 10 man unit, with attached IC. 5 Psycanons always shooting as heavy 4!

 

The Range sucks, but I'm hoping that Scout will alleviate that somewhat, plus I'm hoping that my opponents will have to come to me to deal with the Pally blob.

 

They're expensive, but point for point are the cheapest GK way to get extra wounds. Ignoring the extra WS, you basically get an extra wound for 15 points. Cheaper than a GKSS, but you lose out on the extra attacks that comes with one.

 

I think Paladin occupy the same relationship that Purifiers have with Power Armour GKs.

 

If your planning on taking 10 Terminators, you might just as well take 5 Pallies. For a saving of 125 before upgrades. You lose out on some attacks, but can retain the same number of wounds and special weapons (Purifiers are much the same when thinking of taking Strike Squads).

 

You do make yourself slighty more susceptable to S8+ Weapons, that can ID your Pallies though. But the points saving should be worth the risk. :down:

[HERO]

Check my sig.

I've been using Paladins in almost every single game, and they're far superior than Terminators.

[biglou666]

paladins, awesome in theory, and awesome in execution. win/win.

[Gentlemanloser]

If your planning on taking 10 Terminators, you might just as well take 5 Pallies. For a saving of 125 before upgrades. You lose out on some attacks, but can retain the same number of wounds and special weapons (Purifiers are much the same when thinking of taking Strike Squads).

 

Quoting myself ftw! <_<

 

Taking this a little further.

 

If you had planned on taking 10 Terminators, you could have;

 

10 2+ Wounds

20 S4 Shooting Attacks

20 S4 Force Weapon Attacks

 

Subbing them for 5 Pallies gives;

 

10 2+ Wounds

10 S4 Shooting Attacks

10 S4 Force Weapon Attacks

 

Not as good. But cheaper. :blink: For the change you could also get 5 Purifiers as well giving you overall;

 

10 2+ Wounds

5 3+ Wounds

20 S4 Shooting Attacks

20 S4 Force Weapon Attacks

 

Same offense as taking 10 Terminators, but you gain an extra 5 (3+ save) Wounds in the process.

[Andrew B]

I really like them too, didn't get a chance to use them yet. I have a 5-man squad for the tournament my store is organising this weekend, I hope they prove useful.

 

The main problem I see with them is that attacks that ignore armour saves and are S8+ will cost you a lot more. Don't really think they'll work wonders, but I'm sure they'll prove useful. I also use GTK as troops so I'm not sold on using only Paladin Squads for Terminator armour models.

 

The coolest thing about them is the feeling you get playing such units, they are epic heroes and it's fun to see them in action.

 

Don't think the Terminator focused approach is going to win me lots of battles, but seems to be the one the codex fluff backs up and it is really fun.

[number6]

My problem with Paladins is their susceptibility to instant death when combined with a 5+ invul save against shooting. <_<

 

The thing that makes your basic Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield terminators so unbelievably awesome is the Storm Shield, not the Thunder Hammer. A 3+ invul save? All the time? Yes please!

 

You can walk those guys in the open and threaten anything nearby. The enemy simply must try torrenting them down, and heavy weapons like railguns, lascannons, demolisher cannons, exorcist missiles, etc. don't really faze them. They take it in the face, shrug it off, and keep coming.

 

Not so with Paladins. Shoot them up with Vendettas, hit them with a demolisher cannon, shoot your exorcists at them, and they die in droves. Unlucky saves against missile launcher spam -- like virtually all Marines armies are doing these days with devastators/long fangs -- and you've lost more than just a single terminator! We depend on pallies and their double wounds!

 

The prevalence of Instant Death-causing shooting and the lack of defense against it leads me to believe that Paladins are just about useless for competitive play. :blink:

[AoC]

My problem with Paladins is their susceptibility to instant death when combined with a 5+ invul save against shooting. :angry:

 

The thing that makes your basic Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield terminators so unbelievably awesome is the Storm Shield, not the Thunder Hammer. A 3+ invul save? All the time? Yes please!

 

You can walk those guys in the open and threaten anything nearby. The enemy simply must try torrenting them down, and heavy weapons like railguns, lascannons, demolisher cannons, exorcist missiles, etc. don't really faze them. They take it in the face, shrug it off, and keep coming.

 

Not so with Paladins. Shoot them up with Vendettas, hit them with a demolisher cannon, shoot your exorcists at them, and they die in droves. Unlucky saves against missile launcher spam -- like virtually all Marines armies are doing these days with devastators/long fangs -- and you've lost more than just a single terminator! We depend on pallies and their double wounds!

 

The prevalence of Instant Death-causing shooting and the lack of defense against it leads me to believe that Paladins are just about useless for competitive play. :(

Take Draigo. He have 3++ and can join the squad of paladins. He also have 5 T.

[HERO]

I find that a Libby w/ Shrouding and Paladins in cover makes me people incredibly angry.

 

They draw so much fire the rest of your army goes unmolested most of the time. This is a great thing in itself! Not to mention the Apothecary making them nigh immune to small arms fire.

[Brother Captain Vain]

Ive had 2 fights so far with them. My belief is that while they are pretty powerful, they quickly chew up your points that could go towards adding more bodies to a list or long range firepower, which we must always account for since most infantry weapons are limited to CC up to 24". So i generally of the opinion of having at most a single squad of these guys to fight along side Draigo if i can spare the points, but otherwise i plan to make full use of normal termies as troops. I may upgrade them to paladins depending on the point size of the match.

 

That's my 2 cents anyway

[Sothalor]

How have people's experiences with the Apothecary been so far? On paper he's expensive and doesn't help against the greatest theoretical threat to Paladins: instant death, high-strength armor-piercing attacks (both shooting and CC). Is it a different story for those who've tried him in some games?

 

I remember during earlier rumor phases (and before we had access to the codex) people declaring the Paladins "trash" because they didn't have Eternal Warrior, weren't going to be big presences in games, etc. So far in playtests it seems most people have had good experiences with Pallies. Is it the same for the Apothecary?

[Justcar]

Sorry, but I don't have the dex with me....

 

Are paladins fearless??

[Andrew B]

Sorry, but I don't have the dex with me....

 

Are paladins fearless??

 

No, they have ATSKNF. Purifiers are the only Fearless unit.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Ive had 2 fights so far with them. My belief is that while they are pretty powerful, they quickly chew up your points that could go towards adding more bodies to a list or long range firepower, which we must always account for since most infantry weapons are limited to CC up to 24". So i generally of the opinion of having at most a single squad of these guys to fight along side Draigo if i can spare the points, but otherwise i plan to make full use of normal termies as troops. I may upgrade them to paladins depending on the point size of the match.

 

That's my 2 cents anyway

 

That was worth a nickel at least.

 

HERO made an excellent point. Getting Paladins in the midfield, in cover, with a Librarian casting shrouding is a way to make them extra nasty.

[Zagman]

I'm running a Driago army.

 

My solution for keeping the paladins alive have been the dreadknights, two shunt right in your enemies face and likely do some damage along the way. This keeps the Paladins and their mobile Psycannons firing.

 

Is this a "competetive build", no, this will not win tournaments. But it paladins are more than enough for all lesser levels of competition.

 

Yesterday, I had Driago and a 5man paladin squad get assaulted by a bloodbride unit with 3 hydra gauntlets, agonizer, and tooled out Archon. I took 5 wounds(0 on Driago), and thanks to some good wound allocation on my part didn't lose a single model. 5 wounds, no loss in combat ability. I also force weaponed the Archon.

 

Driago

 

5 x paladins with Psycannon MC Daemonhammer, Psycannon falshions, halberd, sword, falshions.

5 x paladins with Psycannon Daemonhammer, Psycannon falshions, halberd, sword, falshions.

5 x paladins with Psycannon Daemonhammer, Psycannon falshions, halberd, sword, falshions.

 

Dreadknight with Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter

Dreadknight with Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter

Dreadknight with Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon

[KhorneHunter57x]

HERO made an excellent point. Getting Paladins in the midfield, in cover, with a Librarian casting shrouding is a way to make them extra nasty.

And having 2 wounds reduces the risk from Deep Striking into cover with Paladins.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

This is what I would do. Make sure there is suitable cover in the middle of the board, with good LOS everywhere. Make sure the deployment type is Dawn of War, and make sure you the one going first. Have your techmarine bolster than cover, then place your Paladins there right off the bat. That's a 2++ cover save. YEAH. And all you need is a Librarian, a pricy tech marine and Draigo to make the Paladins scoring. Best. Idea. Ever. I am going to use this in tournaments and win everytime.

[Irbis]

This is what I would do. Make sure there is suitable cover in the middle of the board, with good LOS everywhere. Make sure the deployment type is Dawn of War, and make sure you the one going first. Have your techmarine bolster than cover, then place your Paladins there right off the bat. That's a 2++ cover save. YEAH. And all you need is a Librarian, a pricy tech marine and Draigo to make the Paladins scoring. Best. Idea. Ever. I am going to use this in tournaments and win everytime.

 

Okayyy... And now, can you inform us how much these 4 units in total would cost? :P

 

My gut says - more than Warhound class Titan or enough Vindicators to evaporate them in one turn ;P

[Gaz1858]

1065 points not including any wargear

[Irbis]

1065 points not including any wargear

 

That was kind of rhetorical question.

 

Still, so, we're looking at about 1300-1500 pts locked in 8 models? All eight which can be killed by ID or S8+ weapon instantly?

 

Even assuming full 2++ save, that's only 48 S8 shots you have to fire before they all die. Mere 8 per turn.

 

To put things in perspective, 15 S8+ in Fangs, SW lists costs about 1/4 to 1/3 of the above and will ID you from well outside your range :lol:

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Yeah I was being sarcastic up there. Not sure how one would "make sure" they get first turn and dawn of war deployment either. Bribes?

[Gaz1858]

Yeah I was being sarcastic up there. Not sure how one would "make sure" they get first turn and dawn of war deployment either. Bribes?

 

Lol i did wonder myself, sarcasm rarely translates well in written form

 

That was kind of rhetorical question.

 

I figured, but its always useful to know the exacts and facts. That pooint cost given is based on 2 x 5 man Paladin squads, base Libby, base Tech and Draigo. Thought it best to base it off a legal army with comfortable model count in the units

[DevianID]

Here are my thoughts with paladins... depending on how falchions will be ruled (+1 attack, or +1 attack and +1 bonus 2ccw for +2 attack total) paladins can bring enough attacks hitting on 3's that they can beat even THSS termies before they swing, for less points than regular termies. You also get 2 pcannons on those 5 guys. Finally, you only need 5 models to win combats, so any 12 capacity transport (redeemer, chimera, stormraven) can carry you with an attached character. Draigo also is really good for the points, despite the large pricetag.

 

So all in all, 5 models with say a chimera and attached draigo or libby can drive up the field, and if the chimera gets popped you have cover to hide in. Even if you cant do this with chimeras post faq, you can still use a raider or stormraven. Its a lot of points, granted, but by just upgrading the squad with a few items and no apothicary you are only threatened by s8 attacks or hundreds of small arms models. In this respect, paladins work well with landraiders, who also only worry about s8+ attacks for the most part.

 

Now, if falchions DONT provide the +2 attacks, then I think you will want footslogging regular termies simply for the extra charge attacks, as you will be hard pressed to deal with THSS termies with paladins--and THSS termies are the gold standard of cc unit currently with templars, dark angels, blood angels, and vanillia marines all using the 3+ storm shield.

[Grand Master Caloth]

two of my many cents on palies..

 

Apocalypse

 

Lord Draigo

20 squads of 5 Paladins, upgraded with an Apothecary

 

275 for Draigo

5500 in Paladins

1500 in Apothecaries

 

400 for Psybolt Ammo

Halberds for Free, 1 hammer in each squad (I THINK for 5 each, which is another 100 pts)

 

thats 7775 pts, and I KNOW i am missing something out of this, my best friend and I were discussing it.. but basically it ended up being some 9000 pts in 101 models. But even whats here is pretty wicked (with the right support)