jimbo1701 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 First off I guess I should ask if the book reveals who the grand masters were. If not, let the speculation begin. With some of the hints from the horus heresy books of late and info in the new dex, who do people think the orginal 8 GMs were? Were they even psykers at first? Survivors of traitor legions with pure souls? (Garro?) Discuss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think the only named one is Janus. I also believe that Garro rounded them up, but was not a grandmaster. Things point towards the 8 being ex-librarians from various legions. Maybe ex-chief librarians!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofblood Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think it is safe to assume that who we have read about in Flight of Einstein(sp?) and the Garro audiobooks are some of the original 8. With some speculation on if Loken or Saul Tarvitz(sp? again) join in. Or maybe I'm wrong if what Justcar says is true. Though I believe in the Collected Visions books it says something like the Emperor "hid their power" from them. So some of these "non"psychic guys could have hidden latent psychic potential. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? From Wiki, I find the god Janus suggests something potentially intertextually dangerous: "While the fundamental nature of Janus is debated, the complex set of its functions may be seen as organised around a simple principle: in the view of most modern scholars that of presiding over all beginnings and transitions, whether abstract or concrete, sacred or profane." These concepts called "beginnings and transitions", sound a great deal like the concept called "change". This concept of "change" is not part of the standard Amalathian-Monodominant vocabulary that has commonly been associated with the Puritan spectrum of the Inquisition, which has in turn been associated with the Chamber Militant Grey Knights. Dare I suggest that we are being played? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? From Wiki, I find the god Janus suggests something potentially intertextually dangerous: "While the fundamental nature of Janus is debated, the complex set of its functions may be seen as organised around a simple principle: in the view of most modern scholars that of presiding over all beginnings and transitions, whether abstract or concrete, sacred or profane." These concepts called "beginnings and transitions", sound a great deal like the concept called "change". This concept of "change" is not part of the standard Amalathian-Monodominant vocabulary that has commonly been associated with the Puritan spectrum of the Inquisition, which has in turn been associated with the Chamber Militant Grey Knights. Dare I suggest that we are being played? It is Matt Ward! I think you are reading into it a little too much :lol: Interesting reference though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
modernangelofdeath Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I think it is safe to assume that who we have read about in Flight of Einstein(sp?) and the Garro audiobooks are some of the original 8. With some speculation on if Loken or Saul Tarvitz(sp? again) join in. Loken and Saul Tarvitz die in "Galaxy in Flames" Loken gets killed by Abbadon, and Saul gets killed by an airstrike.............I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Loken's death, as reported by a BL author, has been greatly exaggerated! Loken is very much alive! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA.Rauk Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Loken wasn't actually finished off by Abbadon but instead left to be killed by the Air strike. Saul seemed fine and also assumed to have been left for said air strike to finish him off- though Torgaddon was the obviously dead one there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamrodMC Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Doubt Loken and Tarvitz are involved. Malcador gave the mission to round up men of "inquisitive nature" to Garro, Qruze and Kendel, because they'd proved their loyalty to the Emperor in the face of overwhelming odds. If Tarvitz and Loken survived and are brought back in another book, as Abnett has suggested they might, they will likely be viewed with suspicion, and will probably not be offered a cushy new job. In fact, I get the impression that if Garro is the guy rounding up the first few GKs, the other two are probably forming the Chambers Militant of the other two Ordos, each in their own ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2704940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 In earlier fluff there is note that always one inquisitor was GK. But i bet ward is unaware of it. Did he even read earlier stuff ? And even if so, is he capable of understanding it ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2705094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 In fact, I get the impression that if Garro is the guy rounding up the first few GKs, the other two are probably forming the Chambers Militant of the other two Ordos, each in their own ways. The Ordo Hereticus proper, weren't founded till after the Age of Apostasy (witch-hunting inquisitors before then were probably called something different). The Deathwatch didn't exist until after a big inquisitorial conclave, which involved a large number of Chapters as well. I could see Kendel being the founder of the Daughters of the Emperor, which would later be co-opted by Vandire, then later still become the Sisters of Battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2705095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I reckon the original eight were from the traitor legions, also does it say in the new ward-fluff what the geneseed for Gks are now or has that been bastardised by ward Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2705149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 It mentions "the emperor's flesh" at one point- so confirming what was in the previous codex just a rumour "said by some to have come from the Emperor's flesh". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2705156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 It is Matt Ward! I think you are reading into it a little too much ;) Interesting reference though! I wouldn't be so quick to cross Ward off here just because he's unpopular. Both Astorath and Sicarius have historical significance. However, I'm still at a loss where he got the names for the Grey Knight special characters. I think they're all wartime officers of various forces but I'm not sure. Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? From Wiki, I find the god Janus suggests something potentially intertextually dangerous: "While the fundamental nature of Janus is debated, the complex set of its functions may be seen as organised around a simple principle: in the view of most modern scholars that of presiding over all beginnings and transitions, whether abstract or concrete, sacred or profane." These concepts called "beginnings and transitions", sound a great deal like the concept called "change". This concept of "change" is not part of the standard Amalathian-Monodominant vocabulary that has commonly been associated with the Puritan spectrum of the Inquisition, which has in turn been associated with the Chamber Militant Grey Knights. Dare I suggest that we are being played? Similar thoughts did vaguely cross my mind, but not with such sinister motives. If Ward is hinting at a diabolic future in store for the chapter then the outrage heard at the moment will pale by comparison with what's to come. When it was hinted on Tempus Fugitives that there could be such a character called 'Janus', it initially conjured up the links between Janus and January - the beginning of the new year used both as a time to reflect on the past and look forward to the future. In that sense I believe Grand Master Janus felt it was his duty to always remember to how the warp had tainted the Astartes in the past and how it was now amongst his oaths to make sure such heresy could never take place again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2707010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Just to point out, people may wish to listen to the Black Library Audio book "Garro Legion of One". I'd really like to go into this, but I fear anyting I say can & will spoil it. It pretty big & I think base toward the Grey Knights, might give a bit more insight, but beyound this I really can not say much more. I can however say it was a brillaint audio book. I maybe wrong, but just with some comment on here, though be worth point out Garro Legion of One. But again sorry can not say much more beyound this. IP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2707019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I think before we continue, we must understand who Grey Knights really are: 1. Must have an incorruptible will. 2. Must have psychic potential. 3. Must be a Space Marine. Not many in the galaxy fits this criteria, and the 3rd clause, the Space Marine bit can be taken care of, but I don't think Garro traveled the galaxy to find non-Space Marines. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2707021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I think before we continue, we must understand who Grey Knights really are: 1. Must have an incorruptible will. 2. Must have psychic potential. 3. Must be a Space Marine. Not many in the galaxy fits this criteria, and the 3rd clause, the Space Marine bit can be taken care of, but I don't think Garro traveled the galaxy to find non-Space Marines. Thoughts? The 3rd clause isn't all too important if he's out looking for healthy young male recruits. If he were looking for Space Marines, then he probably wouldn't need to do too much traveling: "I'd like to have a chat with your librarians." "Sure. What for?" "Not sure, but I've got orders to look for good people for a job. Here's my papers." "Hm. Well, you're clean so go ahead. Don't keep them for too long." "Oh I won't ..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2707836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justcar Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 They are supposed to be inducted as the original Grand Masters, so they not only have to be marines (librarians), but they also have to be very powerful/wise/experienced... Thus shrinking the applicant base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2708607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 They are supposed to be inducted as the original Grand Masters, so they not only have to be marines (librarians), but they also have to be very powerful/wise/experienced... Thus shrinking the applicant base. The audio books on Garro say otherwise. I'll tell you one thing though: Some of the people he recruits are NOT Librarians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2708610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mullinstron Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I just finished the Audio book as well and it seems pretty clear that this is going to be the force that founds the Grey knights. With out any spoilers they call Garro a knight of the Emperor. Hes dressed in Grey Armor and they have the I on there armor. It's the proto grey knights. From here they might start becoming and recruiting psykers, but it started out with mostly X trator legion non psykers with one Ultra Marines Psyker. The Audio book set you up for another, which I am sure will be the founding on the Grey knights. ~m Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2812798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 :) *shuts and rubs eyes just to make sure* :P Seriously guys? Really!? This many posts and no mention of the best Grand Master of them all - Grand Master Flash!? You all disgust me! :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_Flash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2812805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? From Wiki, I find the god Janus suggests something potentially intertextually dangerous: "While the fundamental nature of Janus is debated, the complex set of its functions may be seen as organised around a simple principle: in the view of most modern scholars that of presiding over all beginnings and transitions, whether abstract or concrete, sacred or profane." These concepts called "beginnings and transitions", sound a great deal like the concept called "change". This concept of "change" is not part of the standard Amalathian-Monodominant vocabulary that has commonly been associated with the Puritan spectrum of the Inquisition, which has in turn been associated with the Chamber Militant Grey Knights. Dare I suggest that we are being played? It does state in the Grey Knights Codex that all Grey Knights get new name when are part of a Daemons name so their very names are weapons to use against Daemons. So this will help with way some of the names are weird if not Daemonic in origins because they are. :) So it would stand to reason that the original Grandmasters did this change aswell for the same reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2812862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 The Roman god Janus was 2 faced so he could look forwards and backwards at the same time. Which is why january was named after him. Reading meanings incertain names that gw have borrowed from history or mythology is asking a lot I think. You might as well read meaning into the fact that one of the moons of Saturn is also called Janus. Maybe to symbolise the rock hard nature of the grey knights? Or maybe Matt ward met me or my father at some point and named the first grand master after us (both of us are named Janus :cuss ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2812872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I felt that the naming of the first Grand Masters had to do with givening up old names/ties as a step to building a defense against true-naming being used against them (which supported in the fluff of both the DH and GK codexes). Janus seems to be a codename as it means to wear two faces, one the world sees and one they don't. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2812906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? From Wiki, I find the god Janus suggests something potentially intertextually dangerous: "While the fundamental nature of Janus is debated, the complex set of its functions may be seen as organised around a simple principle: in the view of most modern scholars that of presiding over all beginnings and transitions, whether abstract or concrete, sacred or profane." These concepts called "beginnings and transitions", sound a great deal like the concept called "change". This concept of "change" is not part of the standard Amalathian-Monodominant vocabulary that has commonly been associated with the Puritan spectrum of the Inquisition, which has in turn been associated with the Chamber Militant Grey Knights. Dare I suggest that we are being played? Take it a step further. How many Grand Masters? How many stars on the Chaos symbol? Hmmmm.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225880-who-were-the-original-8-grand-masters/#findComment-2812952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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