Chosen and Havoc loadouts

[minigun762]

This is a bit of a two part question:

 

1) What do you think is the best overall squad size for Havocs (assuming Autocannons). I can see 6/3, 7/4 and 8/4 being my first choices but I've also heard of people having success with the 5/4 loadout as well.

 

2) If I want to use some special weapon spamming Chosen, how do I best mix them in with my special weapon spamming CSMs? Give the Chosen Melta and/or Flamer for outflanking goodness and the CSMs Plasma for holding objectives or Plasma Chosen for fire support and Melta/Fist CSMs for claiming objectives or a mix?

[Wildonion]

While I am not a big fan of Havocs, I prefer Obliterators for all of the usual reasons, I would think that the best way to use them is to go bare bones and just take a squad of five men with four autocannons. It maximizes your firepower and minimizes point expenditure; just be sure to set them in some good cover so that you can keep them around as long as possible.

 

As for the Chosen, I had some good times with five man plasma suicide units in a Rhino, using outflank to get them behind the enemy and start shooting up support squads like Havocs or Devastators. The problem with Plasma, however, was that it was not as useful because of all the cover saves. So if you are going to go with Chosen then I think Meltaguns will be good, so that you can sneak attack enemy tanks and transports.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Havocs, I'd go with 8/4, just because those extra wounds are going to get eaten up pretty sharpish.

 

Chosen, I'm a big fan of outflanking Melta. 2/3 chance you turn up on the side you prefer, 12" movement, 2" Disembark and 5 Meltaguns will ruin even a Land Raider's day, although it's better pointed at other things.

[Dan The Deamon]

I'm a huge proponent of Autocannon havocs, and when i originally made my squad and started playing them i kitted them out like this

8 marines, 4 AC, 1 champ, and icon of glory.

 

Expensive squad but it was guaranteed to keep those autocannons shooting. With 4 ablative wounds, ld 10 and re-roll they always stuck around. Until i noticed they never really got shot much, so i started dropping models from the lineup to see where my effectiveness would stop. I got down to 6 marines, 4 autocannons, no further upgrades, and this has worked just as good as my original squad.

[minigun762]

I like how in the 3 responses about Havocs/Autocannons, I had 3 different squad sizes recommended ^_^

Thats why its been a struggle for me, I can see the logic in the MSU/max firepower as the most lean choice but the extra bodies and/or improved LD to keep the ACs firing longer also has significant value.

 

I've started to consider moving away from my 2x Melta/Fist CSM squads to Melta/Flamer Chosen squads supported by Plasma CSM squads but then it gets confusing where to put the Fist. Its not as protected in a smaller Chosen squad and it uses up one of the SW slots where as its kinda wasted in the Plasma CSM squad because that squad is built for holding objectives and rapid fire work.

[Brother Nihm]

The answer to that magical question (for me that is) is to start out with 6/3 AC Havocs, then add more bodies and perhaps 1 more AC, if I have extra points. :P

 

6/3 is usually strong enough to last 1 round of concentrated fire and dish out some damage in return, add bad dice rolling (in the Havocs' favour), lucky saves/cover saves, and LoS - I've often seen them firing in turn 5-6+.

[Zeller]

Five plasma guns in an infiltrating squad is always a nice way to say hello.

 

I run 10-man havoc squads with 4 guns each but I'm wierd like that.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I run 10-man havoc squads with 4 guns each but I'm wierd like that.

 

Not that weird, I do the same. I fell into the 4-ML Havoc trap early in this Codex, and have since changed my ways and changed to ACs, but I like them in packs of 10 with a PFist Champ if I can afford it (I usually can't). They don't see much action, since I have Oblits and they're just way more awesome, but every now and again they infest a structure and make nuisances of themselves.

[Captain Tezdal]

I run my teeth of khorne in squads of 8, works okay I suppose extra wounds and whatnaught, and somewhat fluffy for my fellers

[BlkTom]

How feasible is a squad of 3 Plasma/2 Melta Chosen in a Rhino for a take on any comers squad?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

How feasible is a squad of 3 Plasma/2 Melta Chosen in a Rhino for a take on any comers squad?

 

Mixing assault and non-assault weapons into the same squad is a gamble, unless you intend on sacrificing plasma shots for bolt pistols prior to the charge. The flamers make more sense, but experiment with it and if it works for you, so be it. Typically, if I run plasma Chosen, it's 4 plasmaguns with a plas pistol Champ in a Rhino, with the plas Champ usually being my sacrifice bunny for a GGD so that the squad can hop back into the Rhino and scoot to another target. ;)

[Sangneur]

I like how in the 3 responses about Havocs/Autocannons, I had 3 different squad sizes recommended ;)

 

That's nothing, in this one responce I'm going to reccomend three sizes.

 

In my opinion, the 5/4 size squad definitely has a place in smaller games, where the ability to level tons of firepower in a small unit in invaluable. The sheer number of shots and fact that there are few armour values you can not overcome. Of course it's no longer reliable with the absurd price of dreadknights and so on (at least we know the daemon prince's price doesn't have to change...).

 

In moderate to large games, our heavy support over stretches very quickly. Only 3 heavy support squads, weak options and inflexibilty in the rest of the list means what little heavy support is in the list must be protected. I usually plop in an icon (you it's bad when I only say "icon" because there's only one icon worth it!) to ensure they're staying put and I use 8 men strong. Although use of 7 members is good, I just like a few more bodies.

[the jeske]

Typically, if I run plasma Chosen, it's 4 plasmaguns with a plas pistol Champ in a Rhino

ok this is something I dont understand . why run a pistol champ when for the same points you could run 5 plasma guns get more range , more shots ?

 

 

I think too many people mix up chosen with actual support units, they are not . they are for the lack of better terms a fire unit . they come ouflanking smoke something or put wounds on a MC and then they either die [drawing away fire and the rhino can still be used as a shield , so its a 2-3 unit trade] or if they dont they do the same next turn[so they do die ].

[Xeonic]

I start with 3/6 on my AC havocs, no champ, maybe IoCG. 3/6 because A: you really need 3 AC to ensure a reliable transport kill every turn, B: you have an ablative wound for every autocannon, and C: It costs exactly the same as 2 obliterators so it's an easy quick list swap. If I have points leftover I first sneak in the icon(really not required but good insurance), then extra autocannon/bodies.

 

I've never run chosen(I personally find the cost for what you get over normal CSM is a little offputting IMO, but they do give unique options), but have run havocs for special spam, 4x melta(well, 4x any special) in one squad in a rhino is respectable for sure and they give you a pretty place to jam a sorc(he's non fearless and doesn't lose it by joining normal CSM, and they benefit from his SCCW and LD10 if you forgo the champ).

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Typically, if I run plasma Chosen, it's 4 plasmaguns with a plas pistol Champ in a Rhino

ok this is something I dont understand . why run a pistol champ when for the same points you could run 5 plasma guns get more range , more shots ?

 

 

I think too many people mix up chosen with actual support units, they are not . they are for the lack of better terms a fire unit . they come ouflanking smoke something or put wounds on a MC and then they either die [drawing away fire and the rhino can still be used as a shield , so its a 2-3 unit trade] or if they dont they do the same next turn[so they do die ].

 

Strictly because I only ever run that squad in conjunction with a GGD, and sacrificing a pistol Champ is cheaper than sacrificing a plasmagun Champ or a Fist Champ for the same job. It's not the most efficient use of the guy, I admit, but since it's rare I run the squad anyway, I don't mind the quirk.

[The Prophet]

I'd go with 5 chosen, 5 meltaguns, rhino

or

10 havocs, 4 meltaguns, aspiring champion, PF, combi-melta, rhino.

 

Different roles, since the havocs can charge into close combat, while the chosen disrupt mech gunlines and only charge if it's tau, IG or similar.

[the jeske]

Strictly because I only ever run that squad in conjunction with a GGD, and sacrificing a pistol Champ is cheaper than sacrificing a plasmagun Champ or a Fist Champ for the same job

0_0 ok. but if you want to us a GD shouldnt you be runig 2 or more naked champs [which of course is bad for the list ] . also how is it cheaper a plasma gun costs the same as a pistol for a champ ?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Strictly because I only ever run that squad in conjunction with a GGD, and sacrificing a pistol Champ is cheaper than sacrificing a plasmagun Champ or a Fist Champ for the same job

0_0 ok. but if you want to us a GD shouldnt you be runig 2 or more naked champs [which of course is bad for the list ] . also how is it cheaper a plasma gun costs the same as a pistol for a champ ?

 

I'd rather lose the 1 shot at 12" than the 2 shots at 24" if I loaded him with a plasmagun. It's the lesser of three (well, four, since it could be a Fist Champ) evils, since like you said I could run a raw Champ but he'd be essentially worthless if I needed him to take a shot at something before the GGD manifests.

[minigun762]

I've never run chosen(I personally find the cost for what you get over normal CSM is a little offputting IMO, but they do give unique options),

 

I agree about the Chosen vs CSM. Its hard for me to give up scoring status and a cheaper point cost in order to get more special weapons and outflank. I'm still not sold on it.

I suppose if I really wanted more firepower, Combi's on the CSM's AC or Rhino (or both) would be an adequate compromise.

[the jeske]

I'd rather lose the 1 shot at 12" than the 2 shots at 24" if I loaded him with a plasmagun.

maybe its the language barrier here . but plasmas have shots at 18" pistols have 1 at 18" stationary guns can get 1 shot at 24" and pistol cant even get that range . so you never have more shots or greater range with a plasma pistol then with a plasma gun . or am i missing something here ?

[Panda_]

I like how in the 3 responses about Havocs/Autocannons, I had 3 different squad sizes recommended :huh:

Thats why its been a struggle for me, I can see the logic in the MSU/max firepower as the most lean choice but the extra bodies and/or improved LD to keep the ACs firing longer also has significant value.

 

I've started to consider moving away from my 2x Melta/Fist CSM squads to Melta/Flamer Chosen squads supported by Plasma CSM squads but then it gets confusing where to put the Fist. Its not as protected in a smaller Chosen squad and it uses up one of the SW slots where as its kinda wasted in the Plasma CSM squad because that squad is built for holding objectives and rapid fire work.

 

I was wondering those 2 units, and you posted my reflexion. Just for that, I need to say that I like your post a lot.

 

First and foremost, I'd like to talk about troop squads. You're suggesting to change their beloved Melta into Plasma guns.

 

Originally, I frowned upon using a Get Hot weapon into my troops and loosing them (30 points) every 18th shots (1/6 * 1/3). While I won't discuss about the benefits of 2 melta + PF, choosing 10 marines with plasma guns (no real need of champ as their job is mainly shooting) put them in direct comparaison to Plague Marines. CSM would cost 180 points while PM would be 145-191 points. Imo, those PM brings so much more in that setup that I'd never use 10 csm + 2 plasma guns... So for me, Plasma troop is PM or nothing. And that won't change, even for fluff considerations (as NL player I generally frown upon Cultists, I reconsider my purist position and bring 1 unit of Plasma PM).

 

Perhaps your question came from the need of Plasma weapons.

This is my needs too. Whereas Oblits generally offer some, they provides cover to their targets (as they are in cover themselves) when they don't need to shoot another target. 2 plasmas aren't enough, leads to Special Weapon teams (Chosen and Havoks). Should those bring Plasma or a mix of Melta/Flamer ? Well, every one should have a different opinion (based on their own list and their regular opponents).

 

As I want to remove Elites, I'd go for plasma with 4/5 in a reduced Chosen squad riding a Rhino. Is there a better way to say "Hello" ? I can even shoot at a armors rear/side. With a Rhino, they are rather expensive (190 points) but they move quick enough to move in a barricade's cover while removing their target cover. That's the real bang with Plasma Weapons.

I can't help much about chosen wielding Meltas as I don't have enough Melta yet. However, I'd go for 3 Meltas and 2 Flamers with the feeling that they won't stand in a "safe" place. Either their blow gives the victory, either this unit is caught early in the open... just like Termicides (which are cheaper).

 

I've heard Zhukov had some interresting opinion on Chosen's setup/usage. I'd like to hear it.

 

Long range Havoks

They either lose 1-2 models (3 wounds) from each early shooting salve or litteraly removed from the field. Baring the 2nd point, we don't want to allocate wounds to heavy weapons, I'd advise 3 bolter models. Likewise, they need some reliability in their Ld test. Should you not use Icons and Champion, that reliability comes in not rolling the test. To offset the Ld test, they need 4 times more figs than 1.5 wounds. That's why I think that their unit should be 6 men strong. Remove 3 bolter man, that's 3 Autocanons left.

If you want play more points than me, you'd probably want more bodies. Which leads you to 4AC in a 8 men havok unit.

 

I'd also like to remind us another thread discussing of Havoks : Havoks!, does anyone else use them?

 

Edits: Links

[minigun762]

Excellent point about the Plasma CSMs vs PM.

Point for point, I would (grudgingly) have to agree that PMs have the advantage as far as Plasma gunners, however I've never felt like my CSM Plasma gunners let me down. At the moment I run a 1:1 mix of Melta/Fist CSMs and Plasma CSMs and its working just fine. I think I'm more interested in just shaking things up with Chosen and deciding how best to allocate those special weapons.

 

The other option is to go against the norm and field Plasma/AC CSM squads as fire support/objective holders. However my gut is that this wouldn't work for me due to my personal playstyle and not wanting to use Chaos "Tactical" Marines.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'd rather lose the 1 shot at 12" than the 2 shots at 24" if I loaded him with a plasmagun.

maybe its the language barrier here . but plasmas have shots at 18" pistols have 1 at 18" stationary guns can get 1 shot at 24" and pistol cant even get that range . so you never have more shots or greater range with a plasma pistol then with a plasma gun . or am i missing something here ?

 

No, just me being dumb way too early in the morning. That should have read: 1 shot at 12" than the 2 shots at 12" :D

 

Plas pistol only has a 12" range with 1 shot.

[Smurfalypse]

I rarely run Havocs but when i do i tend to run auto-cannons and a unit of 12, a champion with a power fist. If i run 9 i feel like im favoring Tzeentch, if i run 8 Khorne, 7 Nurgle...You get the picture, its the Word Bearer in me. I rarely play competitively, so i am sure i will be laughed at for my Fluffyness :D

 

The Chosen i do run a fair amount (Most of the time my pts are tied up with my endless supply of possessed). I almost always run them as i run my base CSM squads, just with an extra two assault weapons. This almost always ends up being x3 melta-guns, x2 flamers, Champion w/power fist. They tend to come on and are able to apply their fire against any target and place enough pressure on my opponent to HAVE to deal with them. This is just my experience and my two cents :P

[the jeske]

I rarely play competitively, so i am sure i will be laughed at for my Fluffyness

well all the god number sized squads for cult work , save for the slany one that doesnt no matter what you do with the squad and how you gear it. Sad but true.