Chosen and Havoc loadouts

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'd rather lose the 1 shot at 12" than the 2 shots at 24" if I loaded him with a plasmagun.

maybe its the language barrier here . but plasmas have shots at 18" pistols have 1 at 18" stationary guns can get 1 shot at 24" and pistol cant even get that range . so you never have more shots or greater range with a plasma pistol then with a plasma gun . or am i missing something here ?

 

No, just me being dumb way too early in the morning. That should have read: 1 shot at 12" than the 2 shots at 12" ^_^

 

Plas pistol only has a 12" range with 1 shot.

 

Wait, this still doesn't make any sense though. Plasma pistol and gun cost the EXACT same amount of points. You have all your CC attacks either way. The only benefit of the pistol is being able to fire it then charge, but you aren't doing that in a squad with 4 plasma guns anyway. There is no reason to ever use the plasma pistol over the gun. Why have 1 shot at 12" when you can have 2 shots at 12" or 1 at 24" for the exact same price?

[Alphz]

Prices in the chaos dex are totally wack man.

 

I'm currently looking to run a 8 man squad of chosen with a rhino to outflank and a full complement of 5 meltaguns and a banner.

 

However, I am still pondering over the inclusion of a powersword (as champ or not) to discourage the enemy from charging me. If you were facing the unit would a single power weapon discourage a charge from your less assault worthy units at all or make no difference when faced with 4/5 meltafuns?

 

I also agree with the 6/3 havok autocannon loadout to give just a little abalative wounds. They combine with a dakka pred for some torrent goodness on enemy units with cool toys.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Wait, this still doesn't make any sense though. Plasma pistol and gun cost the EXACT same amount of points. You have all your CC attacks either way. The only benefit of the pistol is being able to fire it then charge, but you aren't doing that in a squad with 4 plasma guns anyway. There is no reason to ever use the plasma pistol over the gun. Why have 1 shot at 12" when you can have 2 shots at 12" or 1 at 24" for the exact same price?

 

It's not a matter of the cost of points, it's a matter of the cost of shots. If I'm using the guy to summon a GGD, I'd rather sacrifice the 1 shot pistol than a 2 shot gun when it manifests. The pistol is just a not-so-happy medium so that he can at least potentially do something with himself before he beasts out. Once he becomes a GGD, instead of it having just cost me 1/5 of the Str 7 AP 2 capacity of the squad, it's only going to cost me 1/9. Is it efficient? No, but efficiency isn't anything our Codex provides on a silver platter, either.

[minigun762]

I'm currently looking to run a 8 man squad of chosen with a rhino to outflank and a full complement of 5 meltaguns and a banner.

 

However, I am still pondering over the inclusion of a powersword (as champ or not) to discourage the enemy from charging me. If you were facing the unit would a single power weapon discourage a charge from your less assault worthy units at all or make no difference when faced with 4/5 meltafuns?

 

No, I don't think so. Against Marines a Power Weapon is only 3x better then a normal Chainsword to the face and thats assumign the attacker doesn't have any kind of inv save. I don't think even a Power Fist would deter someone from assaulting that squad as the 4/5 Meltaguns hanging out just make it far too dangerous to anything besides a horde of Orks or Tyranid.

 

I would however think about the inclusion of a Flamer or two. My logic is that 3-4 Meltaguns is usually enough to pop any vehicle and stack wounds on an MC but with the lack of complete control with Outflanking if you come up against light infantry, its wasted. Taking even 1 Flamer will give you something to do against the light guys and it keeps the squad cheaper (barely).

 

As for the Havocs, I think that the 6/3 approach for mid-size games (1500) would be the best starting point. Using quick averages, I should get 1 glance and 1 penetrating hit each turn against a Rhino with 3 ACs which isn't too bad.

[the jeske]

If I'm using the guy to summon a GGD, I'd rather sacrifice the 1 shot pistol than a 2 shot gun when it manifests.

but your droping a 15 pts upgrade anyway , with a plas you at least get more shots if the GD doesnt come turn 2 [and he has a 50% chance to do that].

[Alphz]

Minigun, yeah that was how I was feeling, most units except tau are going to rate their chances in combat vs 1 sword instead of 4 meltas and bolters.

 

On the flamer thing, I see where you're coming from but it sort of dilutes the unit a bit and saves a mere 5 points per gun. Outflanking with a rhino should see the unit close to if not heading towards a appropriate target 9/10 times. If not in the right place, I have a flamer rhino that should be in the vicinity to cover the template needs.

 

I think what I'm saying is a 5 point saving feels hardly worth it and I can't really imagine an improvement on effectiveness above putting the fear of a fistful of meltaguns bearing down the flank.

 

I'm glad my 6/3 havoks is a good idea!

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If I'm using the guy to summon a GGD, I'd rather sacrifice the 1 shot pistol than a 2 shot gun when it manifests.

but your droping a 15 pts upgrade anyway , with a plas you at least get more shots if the GD doesnt come turn 2 [and he has a 50% chance to do that].

 

What's life without these little gambles? :D

[d@n]

you dont have to outflank chosen you can put them pretty much anywere on the board. so just have 6x4 missile launchers, with the chosen in cover. take that mr spacewolve if you want missile launch spam i'll give you missile launcher spam!

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Take that mr spacewolve if you want missile launch spam i'll give you missile launcher spam!

Except our ML's are more expensive and can't split their fire as efficiently.

[Panda_]

Take that mr spacewolve if you want missile launch spam i'll give you missile launcher spam!

Except our ML's are more expensive and can't split their fire as efficiently.

And chosen have 1 ML max.

[minigun762]

Outflanking and special weapon spamming is really the only thing the Chosen have going for them. Otherwise they're just expensive non-scoring CSMs.

[d@n]

Outflanking and special weapon spamming is really the only thing the Chosen have going for them. Otherwise they're just expensive non-scoring CSMs.

an icon and champ going to ground in some cover is good for demon summoning, thats one other use.

[d@n]

Take that mr spacewolve if you want missile launch spam i'll give you missile launcher spam!

Except our ML's are more expensive and can't split their fire as efficiently.

And chosen have 1 ML max.

really? well that goes to show how long its been since i have looked at codex csm lol

[the jeske]

Outflanking and special weapon spamming is really the only thing the Chosen have going for them. Otherwise they're just expensive non-scoring CSMs.

an icon and champ going to ground in some cover is good for demon summoning, thats one other use.

 

yeah and then we get a sub par unit to summon an even worse one , which both cost at the same time would buy scoring and better units.

but yeah techincly you could even walk them with a 9 spawn screen in front [and make them huge like nurgle GD size and shape] to block LoS and give cover.

[Panda_]

Outflanking and special weapon spamming is really the only thing the Chosen have going for them. Otherwise they're just expensive non-scoring CSMs.

an icon and champ going to ground in some cover is good for demon summoning, thats one other use.

The problem comes when the Daemons spring from reserves earlier than Chosen. We shouldn't count on that idea unless the army have several icons on the field.

[Vissah]

Just keep your Havoc units small, 5 men squads with 4 heavy weapons should be enough.

This way you can put down maybe 2 units instead of only 1.

 

They will be around long enough cause you are sending 40 Marines forward in Rhino's/Land Raiders and maybe a Prince, so your enemy got better stuff to shoot at and more to worry about then 2 small units that are in cover and hard to shift with all those cover saves.

[red_starrise]

Prices in the chaos dex are totally wack man.

 

I'm currently looking to run a 8 man squad of chosen with a rhino to outflank and a full complement of 5 meltaguns and a banner.

 

However, I am still pondering over the inclusion of a powersword (as champ or not) to discourage the enemy from charging me. If you were facing the unit would a single power weapon discourage a charge from your less assault worthy units at all or make no difference when faced with 4/5 meltafuns?

 

I also agree with the 6/3 havok autocannon loadout to give just a little abalative wounds. They combine with a dakka pred for some torrent goodness on enemy units with cool toys.

 

Well, that depends on what's going to charge them honestly. Assault Marines? No, especially since mine are 10 man strong w/ 3 plasma pistols & a thunder hammer. The 3 plasma pistol & 7 bolt pistols shots probably guarantee me 2-3 dead pre-charge. Regular attacks probably will kill 2-3 in each of our squads, maybe 4 in mine w/ the power weapon & then my sgt w/ thunder hammer is probably 2 more dead on your side, that means you lose by 1 wound, odds are we're stuck in combat but I still have 6-7 guys left, you have 2-4 left so you only have 4-8 attack dice, I have 12-14 attack dice, barring bad rolls, the chosen are dead after 2 rounds, w/ really good rolls on shooting & the assault they're dead in 1. Yes, chances are I took 1 wound from my 3 plasma pistol, but typically that armor save is usually good. Especially due to the fact that 5 meltaguns are a threat, while the squad is not a threat in assault really.

 

However, this depends also on the icon you're taking, Chaos Glory, odds are you're stuck in combat, Nurgle, you're harder to wound so combat will be more drawn out, Slaanesh or Khorne you'll possibly do more damage to me because you hit sooner or you'll hit more (more dice favor more hits) & Tzeentch you'll last longer but do the same damage, so you might win by 1 wound but it's only useful against the plasma pistols or thunder hammer really, in the regular combat it's really a moot point.

 

And, lastly, against a squad of 15 blood claws led by wolf priest w/ preferred enemy I'd take that charge opportunity in a heartbeat. The odds are grossly in favor of wiping out the chosen in the first round due to 13 bolt pistol shots, 9 of which will probably hit, 5 of which will wound, 2-3 will be unsaved, then 2 flamer shots that will hit an average of 3-5 models each for probably 5-7 wounds, 2-3 of which will probably be unsaved & 1 wolf priest bolt pistol shot, which will probably wound but may be saved, so average of 4-5 casualties in shooting, then 2 power weapon wounds from the wolf priest on average & about 12 hits from the blood claws inflicting about 8 wounds on the surviving 1-2 guys which will have to save between 4 & 8 wounds each averaging 1-2 fails each meaning the squad is wiped out, likely after hitting likely 6 times on the blood claws of which 4 will probably wound of which 2 will probably fail their armor saves.

 

Again, this depends also on the icon you're taking, Chaos Glory, odds are you're stuck in combat, Nurgle, you're harder to wound so combat will be more drawn out, Slaanesh or Khorne you'll possibly do more damage to me because you hit sooner or you'll hit more (more dice favor more hits) & Tzeentch you'll last longer but do the same damage, it's even less useful against the blood claws because it would only help against the crozius of the wolf priest, odds of which 1 of the 2 would still be unsaved due to 5++ so, even w/ all the possible icons, the Blood Claws would probably wipe out the chosen on the charge or at least do a large amount of damage still, odds are that the claws would take heavier casualties, but hey, they're cheap & that's what they're for lol.

 

Sorry to get long winded there, but just answering the question w/ my way of thinking.

 

To the OP:

 

I ran Havocs before in 10 man squads w/ 5 heavy weapons, I usually ran a pair of lascannons & 3 missile launchers due to range matching & the overlapping targets, krak missiles are great against most vehicles as are lascannons, plus both are great against killing high T models or against MEQ & frag missiles & lascannons will still do a good amount of hurt to hordes such as Orks.

 

As for Chosen, I like 3 plas, 2 melta in a rhino w/ a powerfist for hunting rear armor on vehicles & taking down MEQ heavy weapons details, the fist is there to help inflict an ID on MEQs if neccessary. I run the rhino w/ a havoc ML so that I can run it up 12", disembark 2", open fire at 12", then next turn the rhino becomes either a turret behind the enemy using TL bolter & HML to be a pain or a mobile missile platform to run around dropping templates wherever I deem convenient to harass my opponent.

[Vissah]

You can only take 4 heavy weapons in a Havoc squad.

[red_starrise]

You can only take 4 heavy weapons in a Havoc squad.

 

Yeah, you're right, got the configuration confused w/ my long fangs for a minute, I meant a pair of each. :)