Is Lord Kaldor Draigo worth it?

[HERO]

actually as per the shieldwiall special rule, he and any hive tyrant gain the Independant Character special rule while attached to a tyrant guard unit, so pick him out all you like! though he's still pretty tough!

 

Read the Tyranid FAQ brah.

[barenone]

While i may be wrong on this but would attacking him to a Pally squad with a apoth also give him feel no pain? If so you just made him even tougher and who doesnt get a apoth with there pallys anyway? or am I wrong about this?

[Drachnon]

I don't field paladins but if I did I would never field them with an apothecary. The idea is cool that you double your defense against small arms fire (non S8 non ap2-) but then you realize that those were never going to hurt your paladins anyway. With their options for wound allocation on 2W models those failed saves every now and then aren't going to be what kills you. What kills your paladins will be S8 and/or ap2- which are a problem regardless of apothecary.

 

 

On Draigo, I have the model and really want to field him but I usually play low points battles so I don't have much room for him and his paladins. I would need at least to play 2k points to make a list in which I'd like with him.

[nurglez]

Bonus of Draigo, is that you can use small paladin squads also. Draigo, 5 paladins and a solodin doesn't cost that much, or you could be silly and only take 3 solodins, 3 scoring units :woot:

 

I have done fairly well with my Draigo wing, and I have never used an apothecary, using one would have helped at times, but those points are better spent on PT's for my DK/s.

[Valerian]

If you take Paladins as Troops, you can take an extra MC Psycannon over the 5 man GKT squad anyway, circumventing the GM Psycannon you should be taking as standard.

 

Why on earth would you take a Psycannon on a GM as standard? Sure, it'll give you four shots that never miss, but for 45 points? I'd rather use the points to put 4x Psycannon on some Strikes and get my 8 to 16 shots (depending on movement), that hit 2/3 of the time instead. Hell, I'd even have 5 points left over.

 

Valerian

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I started off using Draigo, switched over to the generic GM so I could take grenades and a psycannon then finally switched back to Draigo and have stuck with him. He is worth every point plus more as far as I'm concerned.

 

G :)

[confused_gordy]

The reason to take draigo, is that if you have decided to take paladins, he infinitely makes your first squad of paladins, far more durable than any other character in our dex could. Weather this is using an apothecary or not (BTW having a feel no pain terminator armour save against krak missiles is fun). Draigo massively improves this squads life expectancy and makes them worth their points, something paladins struggle with without Draigo.

[breng77]

GM 175 pts

 

Psyker mastery level 2 25pts?? (don't have the dex with me)

 

MC sword 5 pts

 

Rad Grenades (as similar to Draigo's +1 S as you can get) 15 pts

 

That comes out to 220pts

 

So you pay about 55 pts (1 measly paladin) for eternal warrior an inv. save that you can use at range, +1 attack, +1 Toughness, and +1 Wound...and your costly paladin squads can now hold objectives!

 

This allows you to use grand strategy on other units, or if you have enough scoring units... make your squads re-roll 1s to wound.

 

I think people get caught up on cost (although at smaller points there's no way you can play him!!), but I think he does a lot more for the army than he costs (IMHO)

 

I think that this kind of thinking is often folly. Sure he gets all this stuff stock, but you are never going to give a GM Psychic mastery LV 2 so that is kind of wasted points(draigo might use it because he has 3 Powers) You probably won't master craft his sword, and Rad grenades are way better than +1 S as they buff the entire squad with the GM.

 

That said Draigo is perfectly worth it if you want to use him and are including (I would say more than 5-6 paladins in your list, at 5 making them scoring while nice is not amazing), and he is a very strong CC character. He is also a great defensive force multiplier for Paladins due to T5, 3++ and eternal warrior.

 

The GM on the other hand is more flexible, and a better shooting HQ. HE is also more of an offensive force multiplier for non-paladin squads due to grenades (he is also a greater offensive force multiplier for paladins for the same reason.)

 

actually as per the shieldwiall special rule, he and any hive tyrant gain the Independant Character special rule while attached to a tyrant guard unit, so pick him out all you like! though he's still pretty tough!

 

Actually per the Tyranid FAQ you cannot pick him out

 

Q:If a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord joins a unit of

Tyrant Guard ,is it treated as an Independent Character

for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks(i.e.

independent characters who are monstrous creatures

can be targeted separately from the unit)and assaults

(i.e.independent characters always count as separate

units in an assault)?

A: No.

 

 

So no picking him out from among the hive guard. Shield wall also does not give the Tyrant (or lord) the IC rule, they are simply allowed to join the hive guard like ICs join other units. The are not even allowed to leave the unit once joined(again re:faq).

[mmgood]

I actually just got done playing a 1500 point game with Draigo and 2-10 man paladin squads. A nice mix of halberds, hammers and swords and one warding stave for wound allocation shenanigans and the rest went into psycannons. Game was dawn of war annihilation. I usedgrand strategy for scouts and walked into his deployment zone.

 

Long story short, I lost one combat squad. And tabled him on turn 4.

 

Points be damned, it is a nasty list and fun to play.

[The Holy Heretic]

Which is exactly Dingo's weakness. He is simply too good, and encourage people to build paladin deathstars, since he shields them from ID - their only weakness. No doubt that he is an effective force multiplier, but he is also the simple 'beginners choice' in the army :devil:

[Hellios]

I don't field paladins but if I did I would never field them with an apothecary. The idea is cool that you double your defense against small arms fire (non S8 non ap2-) but then you realize that those were never going to hurt your paladins anyway. With their options for wound allocation on 2W models those failed saves every now and then aren't going to be what kills you. What kills your paladins will be S8 and/or ap2- which are a problem regardless of apothecary.

 

 

On Draigo, I have the model and really want to field him but I usually play low points battles so I don't have much room for him and his paladins. I would need at least to play 2k points to make a list in which I'd like with him.

 

While your point is valid, I disagree in the fact that some armies plan to kill elite troops via volume of fire.

 

Eldar, Orks and Guard can do volume of fire pretty well... I guess it depends on what you play against.

[RedemptionNL]

I don't field paladins but if I did I would never field them with an apothecary. The idea is cool that you double your defense against small arms fire (non S8 non ap2-) but then you realize that those were never going to hurt your paladins anyway. With their options for wound allocation on 2W models those failed saves every now and then aren't going to be what kills you. What kills your paladins will be S8 and/or ap2- which are a problem regardless of apothecary.

 

 

On Draigo, I have the model and really want to field him but I usually play low points battles so I don't have much room for him and his paladins. I would need at least to play 2k points to make a list in which I'd like with him.

 

While your point is valid, I disagree in the fact that some armies plan to kill elite troops via volume of fire.

 

Eldar, Orks and Guard can do volume of fire pretty well... I guess it depends on what you play against.

 

Even without an Apothecary, Paladins are pretty durable to most fire. To give you some numbers:

 

To take out a 5 man Paladin squad, you need to shoot on average:

360 BS3 S3 shots (lasguns)

216 BS2 S6/7 shots (lootas)

180 BS4 S4 shots (bolters)

144 BS3 S6/7 shots (multi-lasers, autocannons)

108 BS4 S6/7 shots (autocannons, non rending assault/psycannon hits)

72 BS3 S8+ shots (missile launchers)

54 BS4 S8+ shots (missile launchers)

36 BS3 S6/7 AP1/2 shots (plasma guns)

27 BS4 S6/7 AP1/2 shots (plasma guns)

24 S4 Templates hitting all 5 Paladins (Burna boys in a battlewagon)

18 BS3 S8+ AP1/2 shots (meltas)

14 BS4 S8+ AP1/2 shots (meltas)

2 S8+ AP2 markers hitting all 5 paladins (Demolisher cannons, Demolition charges)

 

Adding an Apothecary is going to double the numbers for the <S8 >AP2 hits. That means that for a lot of armies, to dedicate that amount of fire to kill 5 models, it's going to take a considerable amount of units multiple turns of shooting, unless they carry S8/9/10 and/or AP1/2 weaponry.

 

 

What is actually an often overlooked weakness of Paladins is leadership tests. Force enough leadership tests on the unit and you have a good chance the entire unit can be escorted of the board. As Draigo loses his Fearless when attached to non-Fearless units, he just joins them.

[Valerian]

What is actually an often overlooked weakness of Paladins is leadership tests. Force enough leadership tests on the unit and you have a good chance the entire unit can be escorted of the board. As Draigo loses his Fearless when attached to non-Fearless units, he just joins them.

 

Why does he lose Fearless? Don't Fearless characters normally grant it to the units they join (like Chaplains and Wolf Priests, etc.)?

 

V

[RedemptionNL]

Chaplains and Wolf Priests have special rules/wargear (Honour of the Chapter and Fang of Morkai respecticaly) that makes the entire squad Fearless. The Fearless USR (BRB page 75) states that Independent Characters with the Fearless USR lose it if they join a unit without the Fearless USR. However, if a non-Fearless IC joins a unit with the Fearless rule, the IC gains it.

[Valerian]

Chaplains and Wolf Priests have special rules/wargear (Honour of the Chapter and Fang of Morkai respecticaly) that makes the entire squad Fearless. The Fearless USR (BRB page 75) states that Independent Characters with the Fearless USR lose it if they join a unit without the Fearless USR. However, if a non-Fearless IC joins a unit with the Fearless rule, the IC gains it.

 

Thanks. Figured that must be it; damned shame, though, as there isn't much point in making an IC Fearless if he doesn't grant it to others. Maybe it'll change in 6th Edition, demonstrating that Draigo was made to be "future proof".

 

V

[barenone]

I know fearless and all but with ld 9 you do not have much to worry about. I mean they can fail but still.....

[breng77]

With drago they would be ld 10 but still a tank shock from a rhino could kill 700 points worth of models if things go right

[Valerian]

Even without an Apothecary, Paladins are pretty durable to most fire. To give you some numbers:

 

To take out a 5 man Paladin squad, you need to shoot on average:

360 BS3 S3 shots (lasguns)

216 BS2 S6/7 shots (lootas)

180 BS4 S4 shots (bolters)

144 BS3 S6/7 shots (multi-lasers, autocannons)

108 BS4 S6/7 shots (autocannons, non rending assault/psycannon hits)

72 BS3 S8+ shots (missile launchers)

54 BS4 S8+ shots (missile launchers)

36 BS3 S6/7 AP1/2 shots (plasma guns)

27 BS4 S6/7 AP1/2 shots (plasma guns)

24 S4 Templates hitting all 5 Paladins (Burna boys in a battlewagon)

18 BS3 S8+ AP1/2 shots (meltas)

14 BS4 S8+ AP1/2 shots (meltas)

2 S8+ AP2 markers hitting all 5 paladins (Demolisher cannons, Demolition charges)

 

Adding an Apothecary is going to double the numbers for the <S8 >AP2 hits. That means that for a lot of armies, to dedicate that amount of fire to kill 5 models, it's going to take a considerable amount of units multiple turns of shooting, unless they carry S8/9/10 and/or AP1/2 weaponry.

 

Redemption, I forgot to thank you earlier for posting this. Certainly helps put it all in perspective; even a small Paladin squad makes a good 'tank' unit to absorb enemy attention, take the hits, and protect the rest of your force, and the enemy can't really afford to ignore them, assuming they've got the two obligatory Psycannon.

 

Valerian

[RedemptionNL]

I know fearless and all but with ld 9 you do not have much to worry about. I mean they can fail but still.....

With drago they would be ld 10 but still a tank shock from a rhino could kill 700 points worth of models if things go right

 

Don't forget that they're not Stubborn either, unless you attach Coteaz. While they probably wont lose combat to most units, a brush in with something like TH/SS terminators and a round of bad dice rolls could cost you the entire unit, even if you only took a couple of wounds. Also some codexes, like Imperial Guard, Grey Knights or Dark Eldar, have ways to reduce leadership by other means, and/or have ways to force Morale checks.

 

Redemption, I forgot to thank you earlier for posting this. Certainly helps put it all in perspective; even a small Paladin squad makes a good 'tank' unit to absorb enemy attention, take the hits, and protect the rest of your force, and the enemy can't really afford to ignore them, assuming they've got the two obligatory Psycannon.

 

Valerian

 

You're welcome. :P Keep in mind those are the very rough statistics to just put things in perspective. In reality, beside dice odds, you have things like overkill (more unsaved wounds on a model than it currently has remaining) and cover reducing damage taken as well due to wound allocation. Which is why I never take the apothecary and rather just take 2 regular Paladins and have points to spare for a Psycannon or Psybolt ammo.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I recently played a game versus Necrons. Draigo split off from the Paladins and back to back rolled through to units of Spyders. I don't think many units can do that.

 

G :cuss

[Murcielago]

How would an apothecary double the amount of s8 ap2 hits needed to kill them? That would still cause instant death AND ignore feel no pain...

[RedemptionNL]

Notice the lesser and greater than signs (< and >). :D

[ValourousHeart]

He said < S8 and > AP2 which means less than S8 and greater than AP2.

 

edit - beat me to it, dang it.

[Gornall]

I think Draigo is a great addition to a Grey Knight Army... even without going full Paladins. He is a combat beast that is capable of taking out most units by himself. With Eternal Warrior, he doesn't have to worry about getting getting gibbed by things that would make a GKGM sweat. His suriviability and S10 against Pyskers/Demons makes him perfect for killing big nasties like Mephiston, TMCs (Draigo and Swarmlord would make an epic duel), and Demon Princes.

 

Personally, I use him at 1500 to protect a 5-man unit of Pallies. He makes them significantly more survivable, especially at 1500 where S8 AP2 is somewhat limited. Because they can shoot pretty well, hold their own in CC, and are scoring, they have to be dealt with... and Draigo makes that a lot harder to do. They form the core of my army, and I use GKSS in Pysbacks and Pysflemen to support them, so it's not a full Draigo list. It's not the best list (it's a themed list), but it has done very well for me. I go into more detail with some batreps and unit analysis here at http://meltaspam.blogspot.com/2011/12/more...-summaries.html (/shameless Blog plug).

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks. Figured that must be it; damned shame, though, as there isn't much point in making an IC Fearless if he doesn't grant it to others. Maybe it'll change in 6th Edition, demonstrating that Draigo was made to be "future proof".

 

Just like Thawn losing his Fearless until he's killed, and ressurects as his own unit...