Necron Heavy Destroyers

[Purdy81]

Heavy destroyers are classed as jetbikes for the movement phase, and can fire whilst moving. So does this mean that they can move 24" flat out and then still fire the heavy gauss cannon?

 

Am I right in assuming they only get the cover save for being classed as a skimmer if they move the full 24"?

[JamesI]

They can't fire if they move more than 12.

 

As they are bikes, they get a 3+ cover if they move more than 18.

[Purdy81]

Thanks for clearing that up JamesI

[Frosty the Pyro]

jetbikes give the relentles USR, which means they may fire heavy and rapid fire weapons as if stationary. Turbo boosting however specificly says you may not fire, relentless does not in any way counter that, thus they still may not fire.

[Grey Mage]

You dont have to move 24", you only need move 18", as described in the turboboosting USR.

 

You can, if you like, move less than this- but you wont get the save.

[SeattleDV8]

To be clear you have to be displaced 18" from your starting point.

With impassable terrain, troops etc it is possible to move your full 24" and still be under 18" from your starting point.

This would not give you a cover save.

[Grey Mage]

-not for a necron destroyer, because as a jetbike they ignore intervening models and terrain.

[dizzy-xc]

My opponent pointed out that the Necron codex overrides the BRB and flat out states his Necron Destroyers can move and fire. So any turbo boost is still a move and allows him to fire. I had trouble arguing against that. The Necron Destoyer rules are older... and they arnt Jetbikes, just move as them, and the unit entry says straight up they can move and fire which contradicts the rules in the BRB, but the codex apparently over rides this.

 

So where are we here?

[Isiah]

Have you looked at a Necron FAQ? - it might shed some light. Otherwise, Codex overrides rulebook as you say.

[Legatus]

My opponent pointed out that the Necron codex overrides the BRB and flat out states his Necron Destroyers can move and fire.

But... all Bikes can move and fire heavy weapons. And since the Turbo-Boost special rule only applies to bikes, but bikes can move and still fire their weapons, that basically means that the restrictions of the turbo-boost move are completely irrelevant and never apply, yes?

[dizzy-xc]

I think the point here is that the unit entry says the unit may move and fire... a distinction not made with other jetbikes, iirc. And I just looked at the Necron 2009pdf and no where there is a FaQ on this, so I am inclined to agree my opponent was correct. He blasted the hell outta me too.

[Legatus]

Well, the Necron Codex is from 2002, so all the way back in 3rd Edition. Back then jetbikes did not have as clearly defined rules as they have now. For example, Craftworld Eldar Jetbikes had the special 6" movement after shooting while Dark Eldar jetbikes had the turbo boost. After 4th Edition GW started to grant those special rules to other "jetbike" type units as well. I remember an older Necron FaQ adressing teh issue whether Necron Destroyers would get the Craftworld Eldar move, but that was a long time ago and I don't remember the details.

[breng77]

I can see the RAW argument but RAI is definitely no, the Turbo Boosters special rule states that models may not make any other voluntary actions.

[DarkGuard]

I can see the RAW argument but RAI is definitely no, the Turbo Boosters special rule states that models may not make any other voluntary actions.

 

I'm inclined to agree with this. Recently there's been a few interesting rules debates that RAW seem absolutely broken and against the nature of the game. RAI is now where I'm firmly standing :yes:.

[thade]

RAI is now where I'm firmly standing :yes:.

Really, it's where we all stand in so many areas in this game, whether we care to admit it or not.

 

Will be interesting to see how things like this change when the Necron update finally hits. For now, the big guns in this thread have it covered.

[dizzy-xc]

I'm surprised it isnt FaQed.

[breng77]

I'm not because I think that it does not occur to most people, I read can move and shoot as being relentless, which means it can move 12" and fire as other bikes can, it never occured to me that I could turbo boost and still fire, as there is no other case where a model can do this. (Or turbo boost and do anything for that matter)

[Grey Mage]

Ok. So heres how I see this:

 

A Destroyer can move and fire. Cool- but turboboosting is a move that isnt just a move- its a universal special rule. It does not say a destroyer may use the turbobooster special rule and shoot in the destroyers rules.

 

The Turbobooster rule says it cant do anything else this turn. This is specific, and part of using the rule.

 

Since the necron book doesnt actually change the turbobooster rule, that clause doesnt come into effect.

[dizzy-xc]

As much as I don't like it, turboboosting is still a move, and the necron codex is very specific about moving and firing. It lets you do that...

[thade]

Ok. So heres how I see this:

 

A Destroyer can move and fire. Cool- but turboboosting is a move that isnt just a move- its a universal special rule. It does not say a destroyer may use the turbobooster special rule and shoot in the destroyers rules.

 

The Turbobooster rule says it cant do anything else this turn. This is specific, and part of using the rule.

 

Since the necron book doesnt actually change the turbobooster rule, that clause doesnt come into effect.

^This.

[thade]

As much as I don't like it, turboboosting is still a move, and the necron codex is very specific about moving and firing. It lets you do that...

It's not a Move, even though it moves your model. (I know, I know.) It's the use of a USR. See GM's recent post.

[dizzy-xc]

I can also understand my opponents pov, and why it is said a codex over rules the BRB. Legatus gave a nice description of the history of the rules involved here and while it seems the RAI move in the direction of saying NO, no one has championed the idea that perhaps the necron destroy is intended to move and fire in all it's simplicity no matter what type movement is being used on the tabletop. So for me, I'm kind split on the issue. I see it both ways, but the necron codex is pretty blunt in its wording in addition to being unique in that I cannot find any similar wording being written for any other jetbikes.

[Grey Mage]

Im not championing that side because I cant agree with it.

 

You can run after deepstrike. You can assault after running if you have fleet. You still cant assault after deepstrike- even if you ran with the fleet rule.

[Legatus]

Another example: I remember someone claiming that a walker could fire an Ordnance weapon after moving, since the rulebook states that Walkers can fire all of their weapons after moving. I pointed out that regular vehicles were allowed to fire "all their weapons" when remaining stationary as well, and that they still would not be allowed to fire other weapons when using an Ordnance weapon.

 

 

Basic rule: "Vehicles that move can only fire some of their weapons"

Exception to basic rule: "Vehicles that remain stationary (or vehicles that are walkers) can fire all of their weapons"

Special rule: "Vehicles that use Ordnance cannot fire any other weapon"

=> The exception adresses the basic rule. The vehicle is not prohibited to fire due to movement. It may still be prohibited to fire due to firing Ordnance.

 

 

 

 

Basic rule: "Models that run cannot assault that turn."

Exception to basic rule: "Models with the "fleet" special rule can assault after running."

Special rule: "Models that deep strike cannot assault that turn."

=> The exception adresses the basic rule. Running will not prevent such models from attacking. They may still be prohibited from attacking due to having landed via deep strike.

 

 

 

 

Basic rule: "Models cannot fire a heavy weapon after moving."

Exception to basic rule: "Bikes can fire heavy weapons after moving."

Special rule: "Turbo boosting bikes cannot fire any weapons."

=> The exception adresses the basic rule. Bikes are not prevented from firing heavy weapons due to having moved. They may still be prevented from firing heavy weapons by using the special Turbo Boost ability.

[chromedog]

But WALKERS CAN fire ordnance weapons after moving (or at least could in 4th - the defiler comes to mind).