redway87 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Hail Brothers! Long time lurker, first time poster. Firstly let me say hi and thank you for all the fantastic content you supply to this most hallowed of resources!! Currently Im working on some Death Company and this got me thinking...from my understanding of the Black Rage it consumes a battle brother on the eve of battle, and my understanding of the Death Watch is that the legions supply a "tithe" of marines for a term of service with the Death Watch (correct me if Im wrong in this). So my question is this, if a brother from the BA or their successors is serving their term with the DW are there any known cases of them submitting to the Black Rage before a mission? If so what were the consequences, especially where the Inquisition is involved? Thank you all in advance and if this has already been covered somewhere else I appologise Aaron Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
vharing Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have the rule book for the Deathwatch game by FFG. In the book the black rage is something that slowly builds up as your character gains more insanity points. It start where the battle brother will not leave any enemy alive and progresses to the point when the brother will stop fighting and drink the blood of a fallen enemy. IMO if a battle brother fell to the black rage, the =I= should place him in stasis and send him back to Baal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have the rule book for the Deathwatch game by FFG. In the book the black rage is something that slowly builds up as your character gains more insanity points. It start where the battle brother will not leave any enemy alive and progresses to the point when the brother will stop fighting and drink the blood of a fallen enemy. IMO if a battle brother fell to the black rage, the =I= should place him in stasis and send him back to Baal. I'd think the =I= would possibly kill the brother, thinking he was falling to chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Isn't the Blood angels curse quite known unlike say... dark angels hunt for the fallen? shouldn't the blood angels have some type of Treaty with the inqusition of the battle brother being sent back if he fell to the black rage? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losfer Werds Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Isn't the Blood angels curse quite known unlike say... dark angels hunt for the fallen? shouldn't the blood angels have some type of Treaty with the inqusition of the battle brother being sent back if he fell to the black rage? That really would make the most sense, especially with the Ordos Xenos being the most...lenient...of the Inquisition's branches. I'm sure there have been a few Watch Commanders or Captains that have witnessed this first hand a few times and put 2 and 2 together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 It is an interesting question because the Ordos choose who they want to join the Deathwatch, not the chapter. G :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 What's =I= ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Okay, my two cents based on years of reading the various conflicting fluff, and obviously being biased towards supporting the fluff that puts the Adeptus Astartes in a stronger position. The Inquisition would probably put him in stasis to transport him back to Baal because the consequences of killing a Space Marine of any chapter is a dangerous proposition. In the case of a first or second founding they would have to be even more careful because the Inquisition only gets it authority form the High Lords of Terra and first and second foundings gain their authority directly from the Emperor himself. The only thing that keeps Space Marines from wiping out the Inquisition is basically they are sevants of the Emperor and there is no reason to and in many cases there are treaties in place between them not to. The Inquisition decides to go after a Space Marine chapter though and there is no order or law or anything else keeping them from deciding that order of the Inquisition has turned from the Emperor's light and needs to be wiped from the face of the galaxy. The Adeptus of Mars ARE under orders to support the Space Marines, but they only support the Inquisition by treaty. Basically it would put a lot of people between a rock and a hard place, and the rest of the Inquisition would probably drop the Ordo that cause the infraction because quite simply they are not prepared for war on the same level as the Adeptus Astartes. In some of the older fluff it talks about the Inquisition knowing about the black rage, but being as the Astartes are a law unto themselves, they really have no authority until the rest of the Astartes are willing to back their play. The only force capable of challanging an Astartes chapter is another Astartes chapter. So basically the Inquisition will do what ever they can to keep the Astartes happy, and the Astartes are going to play nice (well, what counts for nice with super human killing machines) with the Inquisition because they server the interests of the Emperor and that is reason enough. Its kind of the situation that exists with the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marines have zero respect for the Ecclesiarchy because they disobeyed the Emperor's orders and worship him as a god. The Ecclesiarchy sees the Space Marines as heretics that have to be destroyed because they do not worship the Emperor as a god. The Ecclesiarchy is pretty close to the Inquisition in terms of power, not quite, but close. There are really only two things keeping them from going to war with the Astartes, and they have gone to war for far less. The first is while they may take out some Space Marines, the Adeptus Astartes would burn every church and cathedral to the ground in their search to kill every last member of the Ecclesiarchy. The second problem is the Adeptus Astartes are closer genetically to the Emperor than a normal man, and you really cannot kill a guy's grandchildren just because they do not think of the man the same way strangers do. Now obviously there is fluff supporting the position that the Inquisition would just put the BA down for having "fallen to chaos" , there is no denying that. Just, as an Astartes player I prefer to follow the fluff that says the Inquisition is not stupid enough to try. Of course they could also just kill him, say he fell in battle, send us another one and no one would be any the wiser, which avoids who is scarier altogether. But Space Marines shall know no fear by order of the Emperor himself, so why avoid it? What's =I= ? Short hand for the Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Ok I guess it means 'inquisition' sorry for that :) You would never guess I've been painting 40k models since 1991/92 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I feel you, I had to spend a lot of time learning the short hand for these boards. Mostly because I kept seeing Ras and wondering what the heck that was. It has nothing to do with how well you know the hobby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I feel you, I had to spend a lot of time learning the short hand for these boards. Mostly because I kept seeing Ras and wondering what the heck that was. It has nothing to do with how well you know the hobby. Haha I had the same problem with 'RAS' especially but now I know it stems back to the 3rd edition I think RAS = regular assault squad and VAS are veteran assault squad :) But yes, I still have difficulties with alot o the abbreviations on here, some ofthem are self explanatory and I can work them out but others I just have no idea... The first time I ended up on here I was searching for advice on arming my DC and the amount of abbreviations were quite literally overwhelming!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 This helped me: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showarticle=47 You can find a lot of stuff like it under the bolter and chainsword 101 forum. I spent a lot of time in there learning to use these boards before I started any posts. I was afraid I'd look like an idiot if I used the wrong abreviations and such. No problems though, my posts have proven it even with the right abreviations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Ok thanks I'll check that out.. I should have figured there would be some sort of 'key' on here for all of the abbreviations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2705807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Ugh... ugh... I smell SM fanboy here. In the case of a first or second founding they would have to be even more careful because the Inquisition only gets it authority form the High Lords of Terra and first and second foundings gain their authority directly from the Emperor himself. The only thing that keeps Space Marines from wiping out the Inquisition is basically they are sevants of the Emperor and there is no reason to and in many cases there are treaties in place between them not to. Wrong. The Inquisition answers only to the Emperor, none subject of Imperium is beyond their jurisdiction (read scrutiny), including Adeptus Astartes, High Lords of Terra and Adeptus Mechanicus. They are not called *The Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition* for no reason. It's actually other way around, the only thing that keeps Inquisition from wiping out the Chapter of Space Marines is their loyality. BUT if the Inquisitor acquire enough proofs or think he has enough proofs, he can very easily declare any Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris at spot. Basically it would put a lot of people between a rock and a hard place, and the rest of the Inquisition would probably drop the Ordo that cause the infraction because quite simply they are not prepared for war on the same level as the Adeptus Astartes. In some of the older fluff it talks about the Inquisition knowing about the black rage, but being as the Astartes are a law unto themselves, they really have no authority until the rest of the Astartes are willing to back their play. The only force capable of challanging an Astartes chapter is another Astartes chapter. So basically the Inquisition will do what ever they can to keep the Astartes happy, and the Astartes are going to play nice (well, what counts for nice with super human killing machines) with the Inquisition because they server the interests of the Emperor and that is reason enough. Its kind of the situation that exists with the Ecclesiarchy. Space Marines have zero respect for the Ecclesiarchy because they disobeyed the Emperor's orders and worship him as a god. The Ecclesiarchy sees the Space Marines as heretics that have to be destroyed because they do not worship the Emperor as a god. The Ecclesiarchy is pretty close to the Inquisition in terms of power, not quite, but close. There are really only two things keeping them from going to war with the Astartes, and they have gone to war for far less. The first is while they may take out some Space Marines, the Adeptus Astartes would burn every church and cathedral to the ground in their search to kill every last member of the Ecclesiarchy. The second problem is the Adeptus Astartes are closer genetically to the Emperor than a normal man, and you really cannot kill a guy's grandchildren just because they do not think of the man the same way strangers do. The problem with this statement is that Adeptus Astartes are far from united and coherent organisation. Everything you need is persuade a Chapter or two that their neighbour is doing 'something' wrong to attack the Chapter in question. The Astartes are very sensitive and violent, when it comes to matters of honour. Second, they are also far from the "law unto themselfs" - The size of fish is determined by the size of the pond and the Astartes are part of Adeptus Terra and thus under the command of High Lords of Terra. The independence is only illusional. And no, you don't need another Chapter to challenge a Chapter, Grey Knights strike force or Order of Adeptas Sororitas is enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2706178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I said I was going off the pro space marine fluff since there is conflicting fluff going both ways. When given two opposing viewpoints that both have backing you are going to go with the one you like the best. Proofs mean multiple mathematic papers that present and assumption or a conclusion clearly following from and assumption or previously proved result. If you are talking about evidence, then the word proof is singular only because it is a compilation of all evidence that leads to a given conclusion that we refer to as the proof. There is no plural because there is no situation in which it can be used as such. Neither is themselfs. You could have just actually quoted my proper grammar instead of putting quotes around bad grammar you are trying to make people believe was mine. See, this is a problem because it leads to your non-sense about wrong. Here, you are wrong, grammar is black and white. With a couple decades of contradicting fluff it is almost impossible to say wrong as it applies to grey areas of the 40k universe, especially when there is no place that specifically explains the whole command structure of the 40k universe other than the Emperor is at the top and everyone listens to him. Per the fourth edition SM codex, "The power of a Space Marine Chapter is beyond imagining and not lightly do they make war, for they are not subject to Imperial rule, and are effectively autonomous fighting forces. An Imperial Commander must petition the Master of the Chapter for aid if he desires these superhuman warriors to fight alongside his own armies. Also, what point are you making on Adeptus, that means basically zilch. From the third edition core rule book: "Adept is the title of a member of the Adeptus Terra the great Priesthood of Earth. It is used as a common form of address and acknowledgement of respect - hence its adoption by the Adeptus Astartes (Space Marines) and Adeptus Mechanicus (The Tech priests of Mars)." Its an honorific they adopted, it does not put them into some imaginary command structure. Their chain of command goes the Emperor, their Primarch, their Chapter Master, their captain, their sergeant, normal space marine. In some chapters, notably the Blood Angels, include sanguinary priests and chaplains in the command structure, but in other chapters this is not normal. BA and their successors had to do it because an incident arose where the captain immediately fell to the rage upon falling so they needed something in place to be able counter-act that possibility. Also, while Space Marine chapters are not a coherent front, and they do fight with one another against each other its also a matter of my brother and I may fight each other, but if my neighbor fights my brother I will fight my neighbor. My neighbor and I may fight each other, but if a stranger fights my neighbor I fight the stranger. If other chapters of the Astartes are being attacked for what they view as good reason, then they will either stay out or join in. If they think someone is going after Astartes for invalid reasons they would saddle up with the other Astartes. As for the Grey Knights or Adeptus Soritias being able to challenge a chapter of Space Marines, not likely. The Grey Knights are too spread out and busy with too many things that have priority to assemble in strength to attack a Space Marine chapter. Do you seriously think the Grey Knights are going to pull all of their brethren from around the galaxy and leave the whole thing open to major demonic incursions to deal with another space marine chapter, who the Grey Knights are not set up to fight against in the first place, because a single Inquisitor said to? Grey Knights are powerful, but they are the wrong tool for the job if you are talking about assaulting other SM chapters. Their loses would be horrendous if they tried it on their own without support and it would give chaos a huge win even if the Grey Knights won the fight. And single chapter (which the Grey Knights are) versus single chapter, the victory is far from certain. Also, the Inquisition was not founded until the anniversary of the Emperor’s ascension to the Golden Throne. There are two different stories about how it came to be, on that the Emperor had told the Sigillite to find men of character to root out the alien, the mutant, and the heretic. Of course at this time the heretic would have been anyone who believed the Emperor was a god, so I don’t buy this story. The other story is about four individuals trying to figure out what happens next after the Emperor Ascended the throne. Two of them, Promeus and Moriana wanted to see the Emperor resurrected. The other two formed what became the Inquisition in order to stop Promeus and Moriana to ensure the Emperor would not be resurrected. Seeing as how the Emperor getting resurrected would lead to a loss of the Astonomican unless another powerful psyker could be found, not to mention a loss of power for the individuals stepping up to rule in the Emperor’s place this seems like a pretty likely option. Either way, neither would lead the individuals to have the same freedoms and authority that the Space Marines have. And the Soritas taking on a chapter, they would do better than guard, but not enough that they are going to make it. Why do you think the Knights of Blood are still running around? They were declared renegade but no one has gone and put them down. Probably just an issue of other Chapters thinking it is not worth the time and effort since the Knights still claim to fight for the Emperor and no one else has the stones or the ability to. If you prefer the Inquisition being more powerful than anything else, go for it. Make your case and we can have a civil discussion. Start throwing out nonsense and insult people and you will tend to get the same returned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2706805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Ugh... ugh... I smell SM fanboy here. In the case of a first or second founding they would have to be even more careful because the Inquisition only gets it authority form the High Lords of Terra and first and second foundings gain their authority directly from the Emperor himself. The only thing that keeps Space Marines from wiping out the Inquisition is basically they are sevants of the Emperor and there is no reason to and in many cases there are treaties in place between them not to. Wrong. The Inquisition answers only to the Emperor, none subject of Imperium is beyond their jurisdiction (read scrutiny), including Adeptus Astartes, High Lords of Terra and Adeptus Mechanicus. They are not called *The Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition* for no reason. It's actually other way around, the only thing that keeps Inquisition from wiping out the Chapter of Space Marines is their loyality. BUT if the Inquisitor acquire enough proofs or think he has enough proofs, he can very easily declare any Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris at spot. Actually, you have this one wrong yourself. The Inquisition has zero authority to order a Space Marine to so much as wip his backside. This has been established in the fluff since the very first mention of the Inquisition. It's why Space Marines in a DH or WH army are described as 'allies' as opposed to the inducted guardsmen. The Inquisition, according to the Inquisitor rulebook was founded after the Emperor's internment in the Golden Throne. The Space Marines mandate to defend mankind and reclaim the galaxy by any means comes direct from the Big E when he was still walking about bitch-slapping disobedient planets left, right and centre. The problem with this statement is that Adeptus Astartes are far from united and coherent organisation. Everything you need is persuade a Chapter or two that their neighbour is doing 'something' wrong to attack the Chapter in question. The Astartes are very sensitive and violent, when it comes to matters of honour.Second, they are also far from the "law unto themselfs" - The size of fish is determined by the size of the pond and the Astartes are part of Adeptus Terra and thus under the command of High Lords of Terra. The independence is only illusional. And no, you don't need another Chapter to challenge a Chapter, Grey Knights strike force or Order of Adeptas Sororitas is enough. Firstly, Grey Knight are a Space Marine Chapter, and fluff wise nuns are no match for Space Marines, especially not a full chapter. Secondly, Space Marine chapters value their independance highly. In the Badab War fluff (up until IA:9 and 10, which I haven't read yet) several chapters turned against the whole of the rest of the Imperium simply for messing with a Space Marine chapter's right to govern itself and the space under its control. Furthermore the Blood Angels and their successors have a 'you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us' policy more so even than the Unforgiven. On top of this they have relations with the other chapters going back centuries, including incredibly close relations with the Fists and White Scars. An Inquisitor is going to have to have a hell of a lot more backing and evidence than 'yeah, I looked at him and he was all chaosy!' to pick a fight with them. At the very least he'd need the backing of a considerable number of chapters, on a much bigger scale than the Badab War. No one is going to pick that fight. If they did they'd lose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2706815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Per the fourth edition SM codex, "The power of a Space Marine Chapter is beyond imagining and not lightly do they make war, for they are not subject to Imperial rule, and are effectively autonomous fighting forces. An Imperial Commander must petition the Master of the Chapter for aid if he desires these superhuman warriors to fight alongside his own armies. The important part is the Imperial Commander. Inquisitor is not imperial commander, he is inquisitor. And as the Inquisitor, he has jurisdiction over all subjects of Imperium (and even over all non-subjects of Imperium :tu: ), no exceptions. He has full right to investigate and scrutinize the Chapter(s) of Adeptus Astartes and if he deems right, declares it Excommunicate Traitoris at spot. This is of course not done lightly and he needs hard evidence, but it happens. Also, what point are you making on Adeptus, that means basically zilch. From the third edition core rule book: "Adept is the title of a member of the Adeptus Terra the great Priesthood of Earth. It is used as a common form of address and acknowledgement of respect - hence its adoption by the Adeptus Astartes (Space Marines) and Adeptus Mechanicus (The Tech priests of Mars)." Its an honorific they adopted, it does not put them into some imaginary command structure. Their chain of command goes the Emperor, their Primarch, their Chapter Master, their captain, their sergeant, normal space marine. In some chapters, notably the Blood Angels, include sanguinary priests and chaplains in the command structure, but in other chapters this is not normal. BA and their successors had to do it because an incident arose where the captain immediately fell to the rage upon falling so they needed something in place to be able counter-act that possibility. Except, the Adeptus Astartes follows the orders of HLoT. Why? Because the HLoT rule the Imperium on behalf of Emperor. This is grey area and most Chapters don't have balls to defy the will of Senate. Also, while Space Marine chapters are not a coherent front, and they do fight with one another against each other its also a matter of my brother and I may fight each other, but if my neighbor fights my brother I will fight my neighbor. My neighbor and I may fight each other, but if a stranger fights my neighbor I fight the stranger. If other chapters of the Astartes are being attacked for what they view as good reason, then they will either stay out or join in. If they think someone is going after Astartes for invalid reasons they would saddle up with the other Astartes. Badab War... As for the Grey Knights or Adeptus Soritias being able to challenge a chapter of Space Marines, not likely. The Grey Knights are too spread out and busy with too many things that have priority to assemble in strength to attack a Space Marine chapter. Do you seriously think the Grey Knights are going to pull all of their brethren from around the galaxy and leave the whole thing open to major demonic incursions to deal with another space marine chapter, who the Grey Knights are not set up to fight against in the first place, because a single Inquisitor said to? Grey Knights are powerful, but they are the wrong tool for the job if you are talking about assaulting other SM chapters. Their loses would be horrendous if they tried it on their own without support and it would give chaos a huge win even if the Grey Knights won the fight. And single chapter (which the Grey Knights are) versus single chapter, the victory is far from certain. Upon declaring such a chapter Excommunicatus, an Inquisitor will attempt to determine the root cause of the rebellion in order to gauge the potential obstacles to neutralising it. Should he suspect that Chaos as the reason for the chapter's fall from grace, the Grey Knights may be mobilised. Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward chapter. On rare occasions, alien intervention may be suspected, and the highly skilled servants of the Ordo Xenos brought in to investigate. ~ Index Astartes Also, the Grey Knights were called to deal with Flame Falcons and Relictors(retconned). *Rejected* Either way, neither would lead the individuals to have the same freedoms and authority that the Space Marines have. Do you know what is Inquistorial Seal? - It's tiny, but veeeery powerful object. Ugh... ugh... I smell SM fanboy here. In the case of a first or second founding they would have to be even more careful because the Inquisition only gets it authority form the High Lords of Terra and first and second foundings gain their authority directly from the Emperor himself. The only thing that keeps Space Marines from wiping out the Inquisition is basically they are sevants of the Emperor and there is no reason to and in many cases there are treaties in place between them not to. Wrong. The Inquisition answers only to the Emperor, none subject of Imperium is beyond their jurisdiction (read scrutiny), including Adeptus Astartes, High Lords of Terra and Adeptus Mechanicus. They are not called *The Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition* for no reason. It's actually other way around, the only thing that keeps Inquisition from wiping out the Chapter of Space Marines is their loyality. BUT if the Inquisitor acquire enough proofs or think he has enough proofs, he can very easily declare any Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris at spot. Actually, you have this one wrong yourself. The Inquisition has zero authority to order a Space Marine to so much as wip his backside. This has been established in the fluff since the very first mention of the Inquisition. It's why Space Marines in a DH or WH army are described as 'allies' as opposed to the inducted guardsmen. The Inquisition, according to the Inquisitor rulebook was founded after the Emperor's internment in the Golden Throne. The Space Marines mandate to defend mankind and reclaim the galaxy by any means comes direct from the Big E when he was still walking about bitch-slapping disobedient planets left, right and centre. Re-read my post. I said 'jurisdiction' and 'scrutiny', not authority to order them around. Two different things. Secondly, Space Marine chapters value their independance highly. In the Badab War fluff (up until IA:9 and 10, which I haven't read yet) several chapters turned against the whole of the rest of the Imperium simply for messing with a Space Marine chapter's right to govern itself and the space under its control. The problem is that it's outside of mandate of SMs Chapter to rule their own poket-empires. The Age of Apostasy pushed the line a little, but it is still considered a wayward action and the Badab War is proof of that. (The reasons for Badab War itself and the participation of the Chapters are a litle bit messy.) Furthermore the Blood Angels and their successors have a 'you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us' policy more so even than the Unforgiven. On top of this they have relations with the other chapters going back centuries, including incredibly close relations with the Fists and White Scars. An Inquisitor is going to have to have a hell of a lot more backing and evidence than 'yeah, I looked at him and he was all chaosy!' to pick a fight with them. At the very least he'd need the backing of a considerable number of chapters, on a much bigger scale than the Badab War. No one is going to pick that fight. If they did they'd lose. I don't deny that, the old Chapters have a lot of respect and fame thanks to the long and undisputable service record. But the Astartes are far from untouchable and even the 1st Foundings have their problems, observe: Whatever the effect [gene-seed mutation/flaw], the servants of the High Lords are always vigilant against the signs of mutation, and the Inquisition is keen to punish any such signs of deviancy. This puts them into conflict with a great many loyal chapters, not least among them the Blood Angels and Space Wolves chapters whose geneseed is known to be as flawed in some respects as it is undoubtedly superior in others. The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy. ~ Index Astartes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2707508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Which Index Astartes are you quoting? I have the Index Astartes II, which covers the Grey Knights and Death Watch Chapters and it says nothing of the sort. So without you clarifying where you are getting this, I am ignoring it. You missed the point about about Space Marines being above Imperial Rule, meaning no Inquisitors, not High Lords, nothing short of the Emperor. We come into the whole conflicting fluff issue again and I really have to start believing you are a short bus rider. What you keep missing is that I am saying there is fluff to support you, but there is fluff to support us as well. If this was the Inquisition's forums then we would put that fluff first, but this is the Blood Angel's forums, so guess what? They have the Baals to do anything within the letter of their mandate that they feel the need to. And guess what, you can NEVER win this arguement here. Its really that simple, you lost before you even started you post because it should have dawned on you that both sides have backing fluff that say they are right. So let me repeat it again, when dealing with conflicting fluff people will go with what they like the best because it will seem more logical to them. I.E. here Space Marines win, in Inquisitor Land the Inquisitors win, but we are here and not there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2707547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 It is an interesting question because the Ordos choose who they want to join the Deathwatch, not the chapter. G :) In the Index Astartes 2 it states: "The Space Marines of the Deathwatch are drawn from many different Chapters, all of which have sworn sacred oaths to maintain specially trained alien fighters and stand ready to deploy them at a moment's notice." That's the only part I saw on the selection in the article, or at least that directly referenced it, other then selection being a great honor. It is pretty vague on who does the selection. It could be the Inquisition that does it directly or the Chapter. Seeing as how the Chapter would know best which warriors would be best suited I would lean towards the Chapters doing the selection, but I could easily see the Chapter throwing out some options and the Inquisition picking those they want. Granted you may have another source that is more specific on the subject, this is just what I have found. GW does not seem to have any articles referencing them on their main website. By the way, the Blood Angels and the Lamenters are both specifically mentioned as having contributed Space Marines to the Deathwatch. If you do not have access to Index Astartes 2 this link has some decent info on the Deathwatch: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwatch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2707555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Can we all just stop and take a breath, here? There is a fine line between spirited debate and flame war, and a few of us are getting dangerously close to crossing it. Personally, I'm going to have to side with Nightwaren here. While the =I= does not have authority over a Chapter, it is well within the purview of an Inquisitor to declare ANY Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris, provided they have proper proof and evidence. Keep in mind they are going to need some heavy duty proof to make such an accusation against a First Founding Chapter, but something say, a recorded account of one or more battle brothers succumbing to the black rage is going to be enough for at least an inquiry into the Chapter's geneseed purity, and even then they're going to be fighting an uphill battle, since SM Chapters are completely autonomous (with the exception of the Grey Knights, who are technically an ordo militant). However, just so we're clear, if you want to talk in terms of outright power, a Chapter of Space Marines is an unimaginably mighty force, one that could take an entire star system by force completely by itself because each one is a hero unto himself, but in terms of authority, =I= wins out. Any single Inquisitor, by mandate of the HLoT, can demand military support from any Imperial fighting force he or she desires. We're talking entire regiments of Guard, Sororitas battlegroups, Imperial Navy, even other SM Chapters (and don't give me that noise that all SM Chapters would band together against the =I= because they wouldn't. Even a first founding Chapter would have it's enemies within the Adeptus Astartes, and even if they didn't there would undoubtedly be Chapters who would take the Inquisition's word over even the BA, or even desire to take the armor, weapons, even the Baal System itself for it's own recruitment who would use the =I= as an excuse to openly move against the BA). If they had a good reason and I mean a DAMN good reason, =I= could and would assemble a force large enough to purge the entirety of the Baal system, successor Chapters or no, and maybe even declare Exterminatus upon it's worlds. It would be a bloody fight, one that would leave the entire sector weakened for decades, even centuries (one could argue this is a good enough reason for an Inquisitor to avoid open conflict, but if they believed that there truly was taint present, as an Inquisitor they would be duty bound to burn it and everything around it). Tabgoi, while I believe you also have a point in that there is fluff supporting either side, it doesn't make you any more right either simply because you're on a Space Marine board, and whining that you are more correct because of the board you are posting in is almost as childish as making a post that's more about why the person you're arguing with is wrong and insulting them than it is about why you are right. Likewise Night, as much as I agree with your argument starting it all off by calling someone a SM fanboy doesn't make your argument any more convincing, and doing it on a SM forum is rather like a pot calling a kettle black while they're both in the stoveware cupboard. As for the Deathwatch, which was the main point of this whole discussion before you guys started in, I guess it probably would be the discretion of the Inquisitor him/herself. Since the Inquisition and the Blood Angels are both thousands of years old, and have worked together I'm certain many, many times, I'm sure it would be inevitable that a battle-brother inducted into the Deathwatch would succumb to the Black Rage sooner or later. That being said, the Flaw is the BA's darkest secret, one they devote themselves to denying body, mind and soul for as long as they possibly can. I'm sure that in the company of both an Inquisitor and battle-brothers from a handful of other Chapters the brother in question would be even more keen to hide his Flaw. In any case, Baal itself is not under any sort of Inquisitorial investigation nor is there any fluff of a time where it had been (at least none that I am aware of), so either the Blood Angels have managed to keep things under wraps for the most part or the Inquisitors that have seen it have kept their mouths shut, maybe because they didn't want to lose the vital resource of a Blood Angel, or they decided it was out of their purview as members of the Ordo Xenos, not Hereticus or Malleus. I doubt they would execute him outright unless he had fallen completely and was totally in the grip of the Black Rage and not just coming close in the heat of battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2707622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 1. BR doesn't cause a marine to drink blood and has nothing to do with blood drinking. at all. 2. the =I= would kill him. the BR isn't a HUGE secret, most inquisitors probably know about it, but i doubt there'd be a chance to put him into stasis even if the killteam leader wanted to. remember deathwatch kill teams are like the commandos/SEAL/delta force of the most elite warriors the imperium has to offer which means they'll be deep behind enemy lines when the battle brother actually falls. FFG game i don't think is accurate, because the fall to the BR isn't a gradual thing. it's all or nothing, either you're forcing the visions down or they're overcoming your entire consciousness. the fighting of the rage may take a while, but chances are that by the time an outsider notices they'll be chin deep in a mission, after all our chapter has dedicated training for our chaplains to recognize the early signs of the rage setting in so i doubt mr.inquisitor would really notice until it was to late and i doubt the marine would raise his hand in the thunderhawk/stormraven/whatever and say "um....sir...i need a stasis break, i'm about to go batsh!t psycho." bee-tee-dubs guys, killing a battle brother who falls won't create some huge controversy or war between the =I= and the chapter the brother comes from. if anything the inquisitor will just say "he was KIA." and most likely the others on the team would agree, but if the chapter master of the fallen brother's chapter pushed the matter the word of an inquisitor and a whole squad of marines from different chapters would probably be enough to convince the chapter master that it was what had to be done. CM may not be happy about but at that point he'd probably back off. and as to the relationship between =I= and astartes, they both have about as much sway and influence over one as the other, the only real difference is if a chapter master or chapalain says "hey that inquisitor has gone rogue!" then it will require the inquisition to look into before a 'sanctioned' action could be taken (the chapter could move against the inquisitor, but if the =I= decided that the inquisitor in question wasn't really rogue then that chapter would be in a big pile of the stinky stuff.) the =I= can't order a CM to do anything he doesn't want to do, but with sufficient evidence he could excommunicate a chapter, or on his own be a lot bigger problem to the chapter, than the chapter could be to the inquisition as a whole or even the sector's inquisitorial HQ. as well as the thing about the imperial church not liking marines. BS. most people in the church don't know spit about the marines beyond the major chapters' names, colors, and battle records, and worship them as the sons of the emperor and literal angels if not demi-gods themselves. very few in the imperium have gotten close enough to marines to know the general consensus of astartes beliefs towards the emperor, because among astartes it varies. some worship him some don't. there's no one left from when the big E was walking around to tell anyone anything about what he said for certain so everyone goes by what the people who came before them tells them. if dante says "the emperor was just a really awesome psyker" then that's what the blood angels will believe if marneus calagar says " the emperor is a god" then that's what the smurfs will believe. and only one group outside of astartes can actually make any decisions regarding marine chapters as far as i've read, and that is the HLoT, and even then the only decisions i've seen them make regarding a chapter really is when to have foundings and whose geneseed to use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2707675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 as well as the thing about the imperial church not liking marines. BS. most people in the church don't know spit about the marines beyond the major chapters' names, colors, and battle records, and worship them as the sons of the emperor and literal angels if not demi-gods themselves. very few in the imperium have gotten close enough to marines to know the general consensus of astartes beliefs towards the emperor, because among astartes it varies. some worship him some don't. there's no one left from when the big E was walking around to tell anyone anything about what he said for certain so everyone goes by what the people who came before them tells them. if dante says "the emperor was just a really awesome psyker" then that's what the blood angels will believe if marneus calagar says " the emperor is a god" then that's what the smurfs will believe. One of the Index Astartes arcticles that came bundled up into Index Astartes 2 is on Space Marine Chaplains. "Some amongst the Ecclesiarchy see the Space Marines as dangerous, heretical deviants, and certainly Wars of Faith have been fought for far less." or "An uneasy truce has developed between the Adeptus Astartes and the Ministorum, though occasional disputes shatter this wary peace." There is a lot more, but you get the idea, the two organizations don't get along. Its not neccessarily a bad thing. You think all the organizations in the USA get along? Even with the new programs forcing the intell agencies to share info and act nice they fight like cats and dogs. Then you have the whole issue between the military and the Democrats which I am not really going to get into, but we'll leave it at the overwhelming majority of the military outside of the Airforce throw their votes to Republicans despite the official political nuetrality of the Armed Forces, I'm sorry Uniformed Services. They changed it because the idea that the military has guns scares people. Anyways, the point is, if there was not an issue between the different Adeptus of Terra, that is when you worry because it means no one on Earth is human anymore. Levenson, you will note I pointed out earlier that a likely outcome would be that they would just kill the fallen brother and tell the Chapter it was in combat, send us another. It allows the Chapter to save face and prevents the Inquisition from having to take any actions that may lead to a weakening of Imperial fighting strength. With fully half of the Legions falling to Chaos, if any more did it would be a serious crisis in the Imperium as it would show a basic flaw in the creation of the Space Marine Chapters if over half went against the Emperor, no one wants that. The big thing between specifically the Blood Angels and Inquisition is according to a lot of fluff they work pretty closely together. For a long time now the Blood Angels have been sending Broters to assist the Ordo Zenos, and the new codex has them working quite closely with the Ordo Malus. While it is unlikely that the Inquisition as a whole has any clue about the Black Rage, there are certainly some Inquisitors who have seen the Death Company take the field and are aware of it. But the Imperium needs its heros and the Blood Angels are a good source of elite troops that defend the Imperium and have a glorious history. There are probably a few Inquisitors who have full knowledge of the problem and help keep it under wraps. Lets face it, when it comes to cover ups the Astartes are not really equiped for it. The Inquisition does however have it down to a science, and for this one to have lasted any amount of time some part of the Inquisition would logically need to be involved. Even if it was only a single Inquisitor handing down the responsibility by sacred oath to his successor as his master had done before. Or it could be one of those pacts signed in ancient antiquity covered the Black Rage, what is being done about it, and for no one to escalate anything. I mean, they unleashed the Death Company at Hades Hive in full view of other Imperial forces, someone saw something. Not to mention the Inquisition was all over the place during each of the wars for Armagedon. Using "the Inquisition does not know so we are safe" is really just GW overlooking a major fluff hole. And really while they have expanded many things about the blood angel's fluff this particular point has been left basically unattended since third edition, not even the IA articles on the Blood Angels or the Flesh Tearers adds anything new. Actually, for that matter it could be the Inquisition itself covering up the Black Rage without the Blood Angel's knowledge simply because they do not want to destabilize and entire sector and no one knows just how far the various treaties and oaths of allegiance to various local power go. Ohh, and I stay civil in any arguement until such time as someone starts throwing insults at me. Once that happens I have found staying civil is not one of my strong suits. That whole pride thing gets in the way. Its kind of why you will see different tones in my replies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2708001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesek Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 By the sounds of it it's been retconned but the first rules I can remember for Deathwatch were in a Chapter Approved bit in WD. This had a bit saying that the Ordo Xenos had long standing treaties with codex adherant chapters and would call on them when required. Interestingly it specifically mentioned that the Deathwatch did not take members from the Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels or Space Wolves for a number of different reasons (iirc SW weren't trusted enough to stick to the plan, BT wouldn't take orders from the Librarian commanding the mission, Dark Angels were too busy being mysterious to play with others, and BA were prone to raging out.). It was obvious hand waving for the fact that these marines from diverse chapters would use no special rules for being of their parent chapters, but it was printed. This would have been early 3rd edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2708026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 as well as the thing about the imperial church not liking marines. BS. most people in the church don't know spit about the marines beyond the major chapters' names, colors, and battle records, and worship them as the sons of the emperor and literal angels if not demi-gods themselves. very few in the imperium have gotten close enough to marines to know the general consensus of astartes beliefs towards the emperor, because among astartes it varies. some worship him some don't. there's no one left from when the big E was walking around to tell anyone anything about what he said for certain so everyone goes by what the people who came before them tells them. if dante says "the emperor was just a really awesome psyker" then that's what the blood angels will believe if marneus calagar says " the emperor is a god" then that's what the smurfs will believe. One of the Index Astartes arcticles that came bundled up into Index Astartes 2 is on Space Marine Chaplains. "Some amongst the Ecclesiarchy see the Space Marines as dangerous, heretical deviants, and certainly Wars of Faith have been fought for far less." or "An uneasy truce has developed between the Adeptus Astartes and the Ministorum, though occasional disputes shatter this wary peace." There is a lot more, but you get the idea, the two organizations don't get along. Its not neccessarily a bad thing. You think all the organizations in the USA get along? Even with the new programs forcing the intell agencies to share info and act nice they fight like cats and dogs. Then you have the whole issue between the military and the Democrats which I am not really going to get into, but we'll leave it at the overwhelming majority of the military outside of the Airforce throw their votes to Republicans despite the official political nuetrality of the Armed Forces, I'm sorry Uniformed Services. They changed it because the idea that the military has guns scares people. Anyways, the point is, if there was not an issue between the different Adeptus of Terra, that is when you worry because it means no one on Earth is human anymore. Levenson, you will note I pointed out earlier that a likely outcome would be that they would just kill the fallen brother and tell the Chapter it was in combat, send us another. It allows the Chapter to save face and prevents the Inquisition from having to take any actions that may lead to a weakening of Imperial fighting strength. With fully half of the Legions falling to Chaos, if any more did it would be a serious crisis in the Imperium as it would show a basic flaw in the creation of the Space Marine Chapters if over half went against the Emperor, no one wants that. The big thing between specifically the Blood Angels and Inquisition is according to a lot of fluff they work pretty closely together. For a long time now the Blood Angels have been sending Broters to assist the Ordo Zenos, and the new codex has them working quite closely with the Ordo Malus. While it is unlikely that the Inquisition as a whole has any clue about the Black Rage, there are certainly some Inquisitors who have seen the Death Company take the field and are aware of it. But the Imperium needs its heros and the Blood Angels are a good source of elite troops that defend the Imperium and have a glorious history. There are probably a few Inquisitors who have full knowledge of the problem and help keep it under wraps. Lets face it, when it comes to cover ups the Astartes are not really equiped for it. The Inquisition does however have it down to a science, and for this one to have lasted any amount of time some part of the Inquisition would logically need to be involved. Even if it was only a single Inquisitor handing down the responsibility by sacred oath to his successor as his master had done before. Or it could be one of those pacts signed in ancient antiquity covered the Black Rage, what is being done about it, and for no one to escalate anything. I mean, they unleashed the Death Company at Hades Hive in full view of other Imperial forces, someone saw something. Not to mention the Inquisition was all over the place during each of the wars for Armagedon. Using "the Inquisition does not know so we are safe" is really just GW overlooking a major fluff hole. And really while they have expanded many things about the blood angel's fluff this particular point has been left basically unattended since third edition, not even the IA articles on the Blood Angels or the Flesh Tearers adds anything new. Actually, for that matter it could be the Inquisition itself covering up the Black Rage without the Blood Angel's knowledge simply because they do not want to destabilize and entire sector and no one knows just how far the various treaties and oaths of allegiance to various local power go. Ohh, and I stay civil in any arguement until such time as someone starts throwing insults at me. Once that happens I have found staying civil is not one of my strong suits. That whole pride thing gets in the way. Its kind of why you will see different tones in my replies. ya people have obviously seen the DC, but that doesn't mean they necessarily understand the significance of BA in black armour. the DC and their actions could just as easily be explained away as 'brothers of tremendous faith zealously leading the assault' ...but that's just how i would explain it if some one asked me and i was trying to keep it a secret. honestly only those close to a chapter with the flaw would have any idea about, as has been said in previous editions, most just think they're plumb batsh!t crazy. but as for the clergymen, note i did say most. by that i meant only the highest ranking guys in the sector would likely know much about any chapters. however, all it would take is one head-honcho to spread a few rumors to his subordinates, but for the most part the astartes are celebrated as the emperor's angels. 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JamesI Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 There are points where this topic comes perilously close to being closed and posters warned. Keep it civil. If you feel someone has insulted you, click the report button, do not respond in kind. Thank You, The Moderators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225974-black-rage-and-the-death-watch/#findComment-2708088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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