Grey-wing

[SoulReaver296]

Since I currently don't have a base list, and it's a broad enough topic, I figure it may as well go here. The issue is designing an all terminator list, with all of the options we have. We don't need a special character to unlock GKTs as troops, so MOST of our HQs would fit (re: not champion or non malleus inquisitor). Not only that, but we have 2 types of terminators as well, and if you want to stretch, 3 (NDK= ultra-termie). So some of the points for discussion, assuming 1,500 to 2,000 point games:

 

1. Which HQ(s)? Draigo for not just scoring but troop-slot Paladins? Mordrak DS shenanigans? GM G-Strat scout vs score?

2. Ratio of Terminators to Paladins

3. Squad sizes, combat squads vs mobs

4. Mobility: transports, scout, DS, summon, first to the fray? <

5. Support units: Ven Dreads vs paladins, NDKs vs LRs and Dreads, ETC -------^ (connected to point 4)

 

I will be playing competitive friendly games so winning is just nice

 

personally, I'm thinking a GM list, mostly termies with 1 paladin squad, rifleman ven-dreads to leave HS slots for NDKs. max psycannons for squads, IDK NDK loadout. Not very mobile, and adding a single LR is just putting up a "HIT ME" sign, so maybe deep strike, but again, casual games.

[dreadmad]

I'd say a mobile assault dreadnought (or two if you want to do it properly) with faux psycannons or multimeltas supporting your squads is not quite a must, but almost. You want to Jotww through my Paladins? Sure, if you can pass it on Ld6. I'd say either that or a psycic hood (or both) should be mandatory in competative lists due to the prevailence of psykers, just my two cents.

[henrywalker]

here is my 1500 point list. everything in termie armor

 

 

 

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor

Terminator armor, psycannon, psyker 1, psybolt ammo, 3 servo skulls

HQ

125

 

10 Terminators

6 falchions, 3 halberds brotherhood banner, psycannon, psilencer

Troops

495

 

10 Terminators

5 x daemon hammers, 5 x halberds, 2 x psilencer

Troops

430

 

10 Terminators

9 x halberds, daemon hammer, 2 x psycannon

Troops

450

[Chairman_woo]

My current working 2000pts list looks something like this

 

Mordrak (HQ)

#200

+5x Ghost knights (-)

4xHalberd 1xHammer

#200

+Librarian (HQ)

+Teleport Homer + Summoning, Might of Titan, Shrouding & Sanctuary 3x Servo Skulls

#200

Paladin Squad x6 (Elites)

Psybolt Ammo +2xPsyCannon, 1x Daemon Hammer 1x Sword 4xHalberd

#390

 

Terminator Squad x5 (Troops)

+Justicar Thawn 4x Halberd 1xHammer +Psycannon

#300

 

Terminator Squad x5 (Troops)

+Psycannon 1x Hammer 4xHalberd

#225

Dreadknight (Heavy Support)

+Heavy incinerator & Teleporter

#235

 

Dreadknight (Heavy Support)

+Heavy incinerator GreatSword & Teleporter

#250

 

Total

#2000

 

 

I love Mordrak both in rules and fluff, if his unit could take a psycannon I might marry them. Well perhaps thats rather an overstatement but it does allow you to set up a very hard to assault unit in cover with usualy a 3+ cover save before you even start with the librarian. The librarian amongst other things brings: servoskulls, shrouding, sanctuary and a teleport homer to the midfield from turn 1. Given the Dreadknights can be shunting on turn 1 to either close support or to provide pressure/diversion elsewhere you stand a very good chance of having most of mordraks unit + libby alive in cover in the midfield for turn 2 when the terminators start to show up (aided by communion).

There is reasonable degree of flexibility with the terminators and paladins but highlights for me include, getting those paladins into cover near the librarian for some hillarious "try to shift me now" moments and getting Justicar Thawn near an enemy objective where he will procede to be a massive pain in the arse. Ultimately the terminators are either supporting your midfield "beachead" or pressing the attack towards the enemy as needed. Summoning gives you a degree of extra flexibility with the servoskulls if you need to pull any of your advance units back.

 

AP2 will always be a problem which is why carefull use of shrouding/cover is going to be an essential feature of any terminator/paladin focoused list. Psyflemen would be nice but I'd sooner have the dreadknights TBH.

 

Ive missed alot of little details and options but I think you should be able to get the core concept of the army and adjust to taste (or just disregard it if you dont like the idea). I'm certain there are more competitive ways of making use of the same basic idea with mordrak (probbably involving psyflemen) but I'm trying to ballance my list off against fluff and physical cost ontop of just being competitive.

[sonofblood]

I'm not sure on point costs, but I plan on running a list similar to the following:

 

HQ:

 

GKGM w/ Falchion, Psycannon, 3x Servo Skulls, Rad 'Nades

 

5 Paladins w/ 2 Halberd, 2 Falchion, 1 Hammer, Apothecary, Psycannon, Incinerator

 

10 Terminators w/ 1 Hammer, 4 Halberd, 5 Falchion, Psycannon, Incinerator

 

10 Terminators w/ 1 Hammer, 4 Halberd, 5 Falchion, Psycannon, Incinerator

 

That I believe is around the 1500 mark or close to.

 

I mostly play Guard or Tau hence the Incinerators and Falchions, Halberds is just for variety and in the event my guard friend want's to bring out Black Templars.

 

If I were to throw in another HQ I would probably chose a Librarian, or for 2000 points, another 10 Terminators with the same setup already posted. The idea is to do a lot of Deep Striking. It may not be the most efficient mode of transportation, but I'm somewhat bored of playing Mech Marines for my other Marines and using Land Raiders.

[SoulReaver296]

The big problem is getting termies to their sweet spot, depending on what the opposing unit is (kiting/counter-assaulting dedicated assault, charging dedicated range, best judgment on balanced... basic GK tactics). Terminators have to weather a fair amount of firepower from many armies before they can do anything, and the others will probably be melee based and untouched. Add in the fact that there is no dedicated Raider (costs are already getting high as well) and I want my mega-armor terminators... I mean my Dread Knights. The fact that the psycannon is now 24" doesn't help, either.

 

As expensive as it is... reserved stormraven(s) carrying combat squaded GKTs? stick one half with psycannons in cover on an objective, psychic communion the raven in faster?

 

Side note, I would rather have kept heavy/assault 3, 36/18 inches on psycannons, than have assault 2/ heavy 4 24".

[amberclad87]

I just played a 2000 pt game using Draigo, max tooled up unit of paladin death star unit with librarian and it walked through an ork army like it wasn't there. In 3 turns they killed 20 storm boyz, 6 killa kanz, 2 dreadnoughts, a battle wagon, a warboss on bike, and wound abuse nobz. Total losses = 3 paladins. I need more play testing but we may have the death star to end all deathstars!

[SoulReaver296]

what was your paladin squad build?

[KhorneHunter57x]

I've been toying with the idea of a pure-Paladin "Knightwing" force that Deep Strikes in, with one 10-man Pallie squad, Draigo, and a Librarian, and the rest of the points in 5-man Paladin squads. Sure, it might not be the most effective, but I think it would be interesting, as you would have a Death Star and a couple-few demi-Death Stars.

 

I need more play testing but we may have the death star to end all deathstars!

Great, now I have the sudden urge to paint up some Paladins with Red Squadron insignia (Rebel Crests on the heraldry shields, and the helmets painted like the ones the individual Rebel pilots wear).

[Chairman_woo]

I just played a 2000 pt game using Draigo, max tooled up unit of paladin death star unit with librarian and it walked through an ork army like it wasn't there. In 3 turns they killed 20 storm boyz, 6 killa kanz, 2 dreadnoughts, a battle wagon, a warboss on bike, and wound abuse nobz. Total losses = 3 paladins. I need more play testing but we may have the death star to end all deathstars!

 

How did you find their limited speed? Seems like their only big downside (it maybe be 1000pts but you are getting 1000pts of killyness so its not that big of a bummer by itself) some armies will just avoid them. Seems like lots of cheap strike squads and maybe a shunting DK or too might be very handy to try and funnel in any stragglers.

 

Speaking from expereince with a tyranid tyrantstar the key seems to being able to make the enemy think twice about moving to the flanks to avoid the slow moving but inexorable avance of the tyrantstar. Its not apropreate for me to go into details of units but basically its 600ish pts of tyrant, guard and prime arranged to make maximum use of wound alocation and regenration. It can be truly horrendous if done right but its slow and predictable just like the "Pallystar".

 

To make it work you have to do 2 things both of which in theory seems usefull here

 

1.) Spread out the unit lengthways as much as you dare. This can give you some pretty epic coverage lengthways with a 11 man unit and paladins can take a multi assault better than most, tho theres going to be a ballancing act here as you run the risk of spreading too thin vs armies that can pile in with multiple assault squads.

 

2.) Dedicating the rest of the army to denying flanks, for nids thats things like raveners, gargoyles etc. for Greyknights we have Deepstriking strike squads, shunting interceptors and dreadknights and well positioned psyflemen as pretty obvious options. Purifiers in rhino's could work too I imagine, as could simply more terminators and paladins in deepstrike. Plenty of ways to skin this cat I think but the basic princaple will always be the same, make the enemy regret hiding in the flanks and marshall them as much as possible towards the path of your wreckingball.

 

You could use a landraider but landraiders are for ;) vanilla marines! Real men (Greyknights) appear out of thin air and kick your face off instead. Seriously tho I dont think a Landraider is anything like essential here, more points and means you have to dilute the strength/size of the squad, and you always have draigo to cushion the blow of AP fire.

[amberclad87]

I used 10 paladins with 5 force swords on the apothercary, banner, 2 psycannons and 1 regular guy. Then 5 force halberds on the rest. psybolt ammo as well. For one, I played against orks, so I didn't have a problem with getting in to close combat seeing as they came to me. orks don't have any form of psychic defence, so all my psychic powers were going off no problem. And orks don't really have any high strength low AP weapons, so they can't soften you up as they go in. and anything they have that ignores armor saves in close combat is probably going to die before it strikes. VERY favorable match up for me. Although I did enjoy chopping up killa kans left and right (I hate those with an all consuming passion!) I really can't see anything that can go toe-to-toe with these guys in close combat. I think IG will be a tough match up as well as eldar seeing as they have lots of low ap weapons and speed.

[marine77]

I am working on developing a terminator wing list on my blog. You can see it at : Gone to Ground

 

I am currently running

 

GM-MC NF Sword, psycannon, rad and psychotroke grenades- 255pt.

Libby- 2x skulls, shrouding, sanctuary, quick silver, might of titan, teleport homer- 195pt.

 

5 Terminators- psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x MC Hammer- 230pt

5 Terminators- psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x MC Hammer- 230pt

5 Terminators- psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x MC Hammer- 230pt

5 Terminators- psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x MC Hammer- 230pt

5 Terminators- psycannon, 2x halberd, 1x Hammer- 225pt

 

Dread- 2x TL autocannon, psybolt ammo- 135pt

Dread- 2x TL autocannon, psybolt ammo- 135pt

Dread- 2x TL autocannon, psybolt ammo- 135pt

 

2,000pt on the dot.

 

If you are going for 1,500pt, you could definitely drop a squad or two and perhaps a dread. This has quite a few good layers of shooting and some nice combat punch. 12 TL S8 autocannons, 24 S7 rending psycannon shots. It is also not as one dimensional as it looks.

[dreadmad]

I ran a 1.5k all termi list today and won both of my games, I can write my list and more detail tommorow if anyone is interested.

Main observations;

Falling back with psycannons/S5 stormbolters makes an unholy mess of meqs, over about 4 turns I had shot my opponent down to Typhus and 3 Bezerkers, who when assaulted just vanished.

Plasma is death. 5 Chosen with plasma killed 9 termi's in 2 turns in one game. Ouch. It's fairly easy to avoid/destroy when you realise the threat.

More when it comes to me,

[Justcar]

I ran a 1.5k all termi list today and won both of my games, I can write my list and more detail tommorow if anyone is interested.

Main observations;

Falling back with psycannons/S5 stormbolters makes an unholy mess of meqs, over about 4 turns I had shot my opponent down to Typhus and 3 Bezerkers, who when assaulted just vanished.

Plasma is death. 5 Chosen with plasma killed 9 termi's in 2 turns in one game. Ouch. It's fairly easy to avoid/destroy when you realise the threat.

More when it comes to me,

 

I'd be interested!

[Chairman_woo]

I ran a 1.5k all termi list today and won both of my games, I can write my list and more detail tommorow if anyone is interested.

Main observations;

Falling back with psycannons/S5 stormbolters makes an unholy mess of meqs, over about 4 turns I had shot my opponent down to Typhus and 3 Bezerkers, who when assaulted just vanished.

Plasma is death. 5 Chosen with plasma killed 9 termi's in 2 turns in one game. Ouch. It's fairly easy to avoid/destroy when you realise the threat.

More when it comes to me,

 

I'd be interested!

 

Me two! It seems like having something fast moving (i.e. teleporting or "ravening") will prove super usefull foer dealing with the usually only 1 or 2 units that can maul your termies. If you can tie them up or shoot them half to death then the rest of the army might just last long enough to do something. Reminds me alot of how vanguard are used in Bloodangel DOA lists, if they can destroy or atleast temorarily nulify the big threats to the rest of your army (generaly high st. low AP shooting) you can go along way to counteracting the armies main weakness i.e. low model count.

[SoulReaver296]

I ran a 1.5k all termi list today and won both of my games, I can write my list and more detail tommorow if anyone is interested.

Main observations;

Falling back with psycannons/S5 stormbolters makes an unholy mess of meqs, over about 4 turns I had shot my opponent down to Typhus and 3 Bezerkers, who when assaulted just vanished.

Plasma is death. 5 Chosen with plasma killed 9 termi's in 2 turns in one game. Ouch. It's fairly easy to avoid/destroy when you realise the threat.

More when it comes to me,

 

I'd be interested!

 

Me two!...

 

Third-ed, and what you can remember of your opponents

[HERO]

The problem with Termie wings is that they're great for the casual games.

 

They fall apart against the following armies:

 

1. High volume of high strength, low AP guns.

2. High volume to high strength, low ap pie plates.

3. Reliable psychic defense.

4. Fast armies that can outrange and avoid.

5. Cannon-fodder units that allow for more 1,2 type shooting.

6. maybe some more..

 

With that said, Draigo wing rips Orks, no question. They rely on getting into CC, lack all of the above and can't really do anything to stop the psychic onslaught of Force Weapons and good CC.

 

Where Draigo Wing really have trouble with is with..

 

Eldrad castle lists

RB spam lists

Mech IG lists

Mechdar

Most mech Dark Eldar lists

 

-------

So vs a lot of the competitive, tournament type lists, Draigowing falls short pretty hard (or is fighting uphill fights). Against the casual game, it can be fun, and against Orks, it's just a walk in the park. I can see it doing pretty decent against most bug lists too.

[The Rose Princes]

I'd say a mobile assault dreadnought (or two if you want to do it properly) with faux psycannons or multimeltas supporting your squads is not quite a must, but almost. You want to Jotww through my Paladins? Sure, if you can pass it on Ld6. I'd say either that or a psycic hood (or both) should be mandatory in competative lists due to the prevailence of psykers, just my two cents.

i thought jaws didn't target a unit.... you just picked a straight line and whoops you just happened to be there.

 

aegis shouldn't have any effect on that.

[dreadmad]

Apologies for it taking so long, I'm currently fighting a loosing battle against virus' but I should hopefully have time to post it up tommorow.

[Kay]

i've been toying with the idea of a Silverwing (much much better than grey-wing imho) for the last couple of months, making up in my mind dozens of different list per day.

 

There are several ones that im sharing with you, those few that may be "competitive"

 

List 1: Paladin Madness

 

Lord Draigo

Any ordo Inquisitor with MAstery 1 and Psy-Comunion

 

4 Squads of 5 Paladins

-2 Mastercrafted Psycannons each

-1 Mastercrafted NDH each

 

Vindicare Assasin

 

2 Psyflemans (2xTLAC with Psy ammo)

 

Thats 2000p

 

The psyflemans are a must have, due to the lack of range on the psycannons. You could exchange the 3 dreads for another unit of paladins and some goodies, but then, i'd like to see you guys chasing Dark Eldar and stuff like that

The Vindicare is a must in 90% of my armies. To good to pass

The Inquisitor just sits out of LoS and casts psy comunion on turn 2 to bring al the termies at once in a more reliable way if facin gunlines (or delay them if rolled poorly) or goes with draigo to add some punch... just 55 points... if he dies, its ok...

 

 

List 2: Deathwing StyleZ

 

Grand Master

MC Sword, Rads, MC incinerator (my default setup)

 

5 Paladins

MC halberd+MC incinerator

MC halberd+Stormbolter

MC NDH+Storm Bolter

MC Nemesis sword+MC Incinerator

MC NDH

Brotherhood Banner

 

This unit is a "In your face unit" They will smas ANything they come across, including endless hordes. They are all differently equipped, for wound allocation, Able to deal with Trigon-Eq due to 2 MC halberds, to soak up hard hitting things (4 wounds with a 4++, adding 3 wounds at 3++ from the GM)

 

2 Units of 5 Terminators with a Psycannon each, mid units and objective holders

 

2 Land raiders, where the regular termis go

 

Stormraven Gunship, ride of the GM+Palas

 

2 Psyflemans

 

again, 2000 points

 

List 3: In your face!!

 

GM Mordrak

5 Ghost Knights with 4 MC Falchions and a MC NDH

Librarian with Quicksilver, Might of titan, and Summoning and teleport homer

 

10 Terminators with Psy ammo, Banner and 2 Psycannons and MC NDH

5 Terminators with banner and Psycannon and MC NDH

 

Stormraven Gunship

 

2 Dreadknights with Teleporters

 

You field the Stormraven, the DKs and the terminators. If you start, you shun the DKs during your scout move. In your turn 1 you have in their depoyment zone a 5 CC monster Terminator+Mordrak+Librarian and 2 DK punching their faces. In turn 2, YOu rush the SR with 5 termis and you summon the other 10 with the librarian. Turn 3, you sweep him off.

 

 

 

Those are just some ideas. Barely tested and mostly product of a sick mind. Hope them, at least, help you to better them :D

[dreadmad]

Finally debugged the computer, apologies this took so long

My list was (roughly, I had to deviate from my planned list so it‘s not optimal, I‘d like to have dropped a few upgrades and gone with a termi =][= with a psycannon);

Tooled up Librarian, warding stave, several powers etc

2 combat squaded units of 10 man GKT w/ Psybolt ammo and 2 psycannons

Dreadnought w/ Ass. Can. And Psybolt ammo

Vindicare assassin

 

I’m going to ignore the first game, as I was completely tactically inept, had awful set up and decisions, and the only thing stopping me from loosing was a chunk of luck and due to it being his first game with a new army for him too.

The list used by my opponent in my second game was roughly as follows

Typhus and 5 nurgle termi’s

2 squads of bezerkers, skull champions had plasma pistol and power sword

5 raptors and lord w/ bliss giver and jump pack

5 havocs all with plasma weaponry

Maybe some other stuff, but I cant remember

 

I set up after him, with the Vidicare in some trees back in the corner of my deployment zone and a bait unit with the librarian on the middle left, another unit in the middle and 2 units on the right with the dreadnought. I put a psycannon in each half of the combat squad for both.

 

First turn I took no damage from his shooting that was in range (just the termis) and in return sniped one of his power weapon skull champions, and then proceeded to blast him with massed S5 and psycannon fire, taking down 6 or 7 ‘zerkers and a termi iirc.

The remaining turns were pretty much the same, fall back 6” back and too the right (he had set up strongly on the left) and blast with all my mobile fire power until about turn 5 when he finally got near with 4 bezerkers and typhus where I charged, took down the ‘zerkers with my force halberds and insta gibbed typhus with my nemesis force hammer.

 

My observations from this match are;

If the play style appeals to you, Silent Requiem‘s way of the water warrior(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214&hl=Water+warrior) is perfectly suited to the new grey knights, if you haven’t read it, it is well worth doing so (it basically consists of playing reactively)

Vindicare assassins tie in well with Grey Wing, the only things that tend to be in range of his are long range anti tank, and if you want to fire your larcenous at him that’s fine with me, going to ground is preferable than one or two cooked terminators a turn, and they can remove the dangerous elements of squads (hidden power fist/weapons or meltaguns etc)

When playing against a psyker who doesn’t auto pass powers the dreadnoughts reinforced ageis is worth it’s worth in gold.

Foot slogging works, I haven’t had chance to play against a gun line, but I think using the water warrior approach should work decently, although that’s just my current thoughts.

Psycannons (in quantity) can handle everything, from the land raider in my first game, to the power and terminator armoured troops of the second, just don’t rely on one for rending (remember you can combat squad so both are in one squad so you can pop tanks and let the other combat squad unleash on the transported unit.

A librarian is a great HQ unit, well worth considering over the Grand Master, although counter attack would be nice to have.

 

And that’s all for now, I’m sure more will occur to me later on.

[Justcar]

Finally debugged the computer, apologies this took so long

My list was (roughly, I had to deviate from my planned list so it‘s not optimal, I‘d like to have dropped a few upgrades and gone with a termi =][= with a psycannon);

Tooled up Librarian, warding stave, several powers etc

2 combat squaded units of 10 man GKT w/ Psybolt ammo and 2 psycannons

Dreadnought w/ Ass. Can. And Psybolt ammo

Vindicare assassin

 

I’m going to ignore the first game, as I was completely tactically inept, had awful set up and decisions, and the only thing stopping me from loosing was a chunk of luck and due to it being his first game with a new army for him too.

The list used by my opponent in my second game was roughly as follows

Typhus and 5 nurgle termi’s

2 squads of bezerkers, skull champions had plasma pistol and power sword

5 raptors and lord w/ bliss giver and jump pack

5 havocs all with plasma weaponry

Maybe some other stuff, but I cant remember

 

I set up after him, with the Vidicare in some trees back in the corner of my deployment zone and a bait unit with the librarian on the middle left, another unit in the middle and 2 units on the right with the dreadnought. I put a psycannon in each half of the combat squad for both.

 

First turn I took no damage from his shooting that was in range (just the termis) and in return sniped one of his power weapon skull champions, and then proceeded to blast him with massed S5 and psycannon fire, taking down 6 or 7 ‘zerkers and a termi iirc.

The remaining turns were pretty much the same, fall back 6” back and too the right (he had set up strongly on the left) and blast with all my mobile fire power until about turn 5 when he finally got near with 4 bezerkers and typhus where I charged, took down the ‘zerkers with my force halberds and insta gibbed typhus with my nemesis force hammer.

 

My observations from this match are;

If the play style appeals to you, Silent Requiem‘s way of the water warrior(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214&hl=Water+warrior) is perfectly suited to the new grey knights, if you haven’t read it, it is well worth doing so (it basically consists of playing reactively)

Vindicare assassins tie in well with Grey Wing, the only things that tend to be in range of his are long range anti tank, and if you want to fire your larcenous at him that’s fine with me, going to ground is preferable than one or two cooked terminators a turn, and they can remove the dangerous elements of squads (hidden power fist/weapons or meltaguns etc)

When playing against a psyker who doesn’t auto pass powers the dreadnoughts reinforced ageis is worth it’s worth in gold.

Foot slogging works, I haven’t had chance to play against a gun line, but I think using the water warrior approach should work decently, although that’s just my current thoughts.

Psycannons (in quantity) can handle everything, from the land raider in my first game, to the power and terminator armoured troops of the second, just don’t rely on one for rending (remember you can combat squad so both are in one squad so you can pop tanks and let the other combat squad unleash on the transported unit.

A librarian is a great HQ unit, well worth considering over the Grand Master, although counter attack would be nice to have.

 

And that’s all for now, I’m sure more will occur to me later on.

 

Water warrior still works?

 

It seems to me that the Grey Knights have shifted (slightly, but noticeably) in the fire direction. Our best wargear and psychic powers only work in close-combat. While you can certainly kite and prune, it seems like there is a strong incentive to assault, especially given our lack of high inv. saves.

 

Have you found that this is not necessarily a problem?

[dreadmad]

@Justcar, They do indeed, in my limited amount of experience. Sure, they got better at combat, but they also got better at shooting, and cheaper. Psycannons got a lot better (bar the loss of ignoring invun.s) and stormbolters got better too, I'd say it not only works, but it works well, maybe even better than before as a standerd GKT squad can now handle anything theoretically, and they are perfectly suited for the reactive playstyle required with equally (imo) strong assault and combat abilities.