Scouts accession

[MalevolentPixel]

I beleive i have an adequate amount of knowledge on the 'path' a newly inducted 'Marine' must take, and my own take on how the Marines Malevolent's regime would challenge the Marine. yet. As my Online Fiction is to follow my marine from humble scoutship, to fully blown Hero of Mankind (Very unusual for Malevolents, yet wait to see where i run with this ;3, i assure you, its horrifically plausible.

 

Some of the main problems i have encountered during my Brainstorms and storyboarding is tackling the inevitable ascension from Brother scout. to Battle Brother. Acquiring your Power Armour, new responsibilities, how much more freedom a marine would receive after being tutored and guided so long. So i pose a few Good Questions!, and hope you can help me!, and i hope to start my project Very soon

• The move from Scout armour to Power Armour, inheritance is the trend with the undersupplied Malevolents mind.
  
• What would be the immediate changes in 'feel'? im expecting the new 'strenth' to be a positive feeling
  
• Who is involved? Scout Sgt, Chaplain?, Lexicanum?, Captain?
  
• Is it a Group thing, Progression of a group, over individual?
  
• Responsibilities?
  
• Changes in the lenght of the Marines 'leash' of tutorlge?
  
• What else would happen, this would be the time independant offices looked to the marine for selection, the Librarius, the Forge?
  

All the help is appreciated, Friends. On top of this, ive always wondered about this stage myself :3

[greatcrusade08]

Hi MalevolentPixel

Scout progression has been a pet topic of mine for a while now, ill gladly help where i can.

although note all my information is based from the newer 5th ed material for codex chapters.

The move from Scout armour to Power Armour, inheritance is the trend with the undersupplied Malevolents mind.

It might be worth doing some quick googling on PA, but from what i recall strength is the more obvious bi-product, youve also got the automated systems not found in scout carapace, the likes of waste reclamation, the sealed envirnoment (which beats the semi-useful scouts rebreathers)

the big difference will come with the newly aquired black carapace which will make the connections with PA through plugs that connect the BC beneath the flesh with the PA itself..

in a way the nervous system of the marine directly controls the armour, it can release pain relievers when they are injured and the movements seem more natural and fluid (aslong as the PA is under power).. it may also be the case that when powered the PA will seem lighter than the carapace.

Its not just strength that takes a boost, all physical attributes are increased, speed, jumping, climbing.. would all be helped by the PA, in one story i vaguely remember a marine survives a fall from low orbit.

Who is involved? Scout Sgt, Chaplain?, Lexicanum?, Captain?

The lexicanum only really get involved with the recruits that show psychic potential, otherwise all of the above, but including also the apothecarian to oversee thier physical changes and monitor them.

 

THIS may help somewhat.. as may THIS

 

Is it a Group thing, Progression of a group, over individual?

Its a slightly more difficult question to answer, the recruits are brought in as groups, trained initially as groups within the basic training.. afterwards they may be broken up to join different squads under different sergeants.

At this point each sergeant oversees the development of each scout individually, although 6 years is the given time to train a scout, so id say largely those who join together 'graduate' at roughly the same time.

 

Responsibilities?

Im not sure what you mean by responsiblities.. was thier something specific you were thinking of?

 

Changes in the lenght of the Marines 'leash' of tutorlge?

This is interesting, in the tenth as scouts thier leash gets longer as they progress between the 3 stages of training, by the final stages they would be scout bikers who are given a larger leash to complete thier tasks.. the same goes in the 9th reserve, to start with they are glorified bodyguards, they must earn the right to bear the chapters heavy weapons.

It seems they have to earn every step of progression by proving themselves in battle.

 

What else would happen, this would be the time independant offices looked to the marine for selection, the Librarius, the Forge?

The librarius will know which recruits have potential, these scouts will recieve 'extra' tutition and once they are eleveated to battle brother they will join the librarius and train with them.. chaplains are chosen from the more stoic and venerable veterans who show promise in the arts of faith.

its normally a case of handpicking.

the same is probably correct for techmarines, they are probably chosen from battle brothers who show potential with technology, i have seen no evidence of scouts being chosen to go to mars.

each captain usually has a favoured sergeant who will replace him should he fall (company champion if you will)

 

i hope this helps

good luck with your project

[MalevolentPixel]

Responsibilities?

Im not sure what you mean by responsiblities.. was thier something specific you were thinking of?

 

In a Scout squad, the responsibility of a senior scout may be to help guide the newer flock, and aid his sgt. in tracking, whilst the newer initiates are only responsible for their survival and learning.

 

But since moving to Power Armour, it seems to almost unfairly re-set itself in 9th company, even though the responsibilityies placed upon a PA marine should be a tiny bit loftier?

 

Thanks for all this information, greatly appriciated!

[Mac the knife]

It actually makes sense that the marine would have to prove himself again once donning the PA. Its typical amongst military units that the new guy be he fresh from Basic or the guy who just transferred units must prove himself to his new chain of command and battle buddies. The new unit wouldn't trust the guy there only one day to carry the guidon.

[MalevolentPixel]

It actually makes sense that the marine would have to prove himself again once donning the PA. Its typical amongst military units that the new guy be he fresh from Basic or the guy who just transferred units must prove himself to his new chain of command and battle buddies. The new unit wouldn't trust the guy there only one day to carry the guidon.

Aha, trust me when i say i know exactly what you mean...

It makes sence yes, i agree with you

[Gaeus Marius]

It would seem that the SMs operate on general military lines. The newly elevated Scout would go through a training period to familiarize himself with the capabilities and limitations of his new equipment, as well as all the integrated systems running internally within the suits. A suit of PA is a complicated piece of gear! The scout would then be assigned to a squad based on slot availability (i.e. the death of a fully fledged marine). Positions in a squad are fluid, everybody cross- trains on everyone else's position. I would assume that the "new guy" would be assigned the position of Rifleman/ grunt with a bolter, until he proved his aptitude with special/ heavy/ assault weapons, etc. From there, he could be elevated/transfered within the squad, or moved to another squad if his skills prove him worthy and a slot opens up (assigned to the company's dev or assault squads, bikes, etc.). That's my take on it anyway. Where are you guys coming up with the move to the 9th instead of one of the Battle Companies? I always thought that scouts were moved to units needing replacements.....

[greatcrusade08]

Where are you guys coming up with the move to the 9th instead of one of the Battle Companies? I always thought that scouts were moved to units needing replacements.....

 

i said at the top of my post that i was using 5th ed as my base.

in 5th the progression goes like this

 

tenth ---> 9th reserve dev ---> 8th reserve assault ---> 6/7th rserve tac ---> 2-5th battle company

 

you can see the full details here

[Ferrata]

But since moving to Power Armour, it seems to almost unfairly re-set itself in 9th company, even though the responsibilityies placed upon a PA marine should be a tiny bit loftier?

I disagree here, I don't think the relationship/responsibilities need to be loftier. It is like going from Primary School to Secondary School, the big fish in the small pond to the small fish in the big pond. New Battle Brothers will probably be focussed on being the very best they can be in every way they can - be it faith, arms etc. The Sergeants and Squad Leaders will be there to act with more authority, so it is the Battle Brothers job just to be a solider.

[GreenSlime]

i said at the top of my post that i was using 5th ed as my base.

in 5th the progression goes like this

 

tenth ---> 9th reserve dev ---> 8th reserve assault ---> 6/7th rserve tac ---> 2-5th battle company

That’s what the 5th ed codex says, so it is canon, but t still strikes me as being the wrong way round.

 

Historically, real world militaries have kept their more experienced troops as reserves to strengthen important defensive positions, exploit breakthroughs and reinforce success. The way it’s written in the codex seem a bit irrational to me – if anything can be “rational” in a sci-fi wargame with toy soldiers. ;)

 

So I think of the reserve companies as an intermediate between the tactical companies and the 1st company. In my chapter, battle brothers are rotated between squads in the tactical companies to see where their particular talents lie, and if they show a special aptitude for a role they are posted to the relevant reserve company.

 

Of course, it makes absolutely no difference to the game mechanics.

[greatcrusade08]

alot of people struggle with the new concepts, but they do make sense if you think about it.

when a tac marine dies you dont have to take a fresh green scout and sepnd alot of time training him to be a tac marine, you simply go to the tactical reserve company and take the best trained from there to replace the dead marine.

likewise the postion now available in that reserve company is taken by someone who is fully trained in the reserve assault company..

 

its alot easier to fill a glass which is already 3 quarters full ;)

 

Also in 5th, they have redefined the role of tac marine, previously it was the base role, but now it is the pinnacle of a battle brother, fully trained in all aspects of SM war and able to be truelly 'tactical'.. of courtse this is somewhat lost in actual game mechanics.

 

i also would question any comparison of marines to real life military, the marines are not an army as such.. they are a fighting force brought in when the army cant cope (much like the vets in the exampleby greenslime)

[exetus]

Historically, real world militaries have kept their more experienced troops as reserves to strengthen important defensive positions, exploit breakthroughs and reinforce success. The way it’s written in the codex seem a bit irrational to me – if anything can be “rational” in a sci-fi wargame with toy soldiers.

 

While this may be historically true, it has not always been the case and is largely NOT the case in modern militaries. The crack units may be held in reserve, but that would be simple battle planning and strategy, not which units they are assigned to or are considered "front line." A good example in the US military would be 1-37 Armor Regiment of the US 1st Armor Division and 120th Combined Arms Battalion of the NC National Guard. Primary differences are that 1st AD rolls with M1A2s and M1A2 SEPs and 120th's armored companies roll with M1s and M1A1s. Not necessarily a huge difference, but it is an example of inferior to superior equipment. You also cannot tell me that the reserve units of the world's militaries are superior to their line units at almost every echelon. Training units maybe, but not reserve and replenishment ones.

 

That being said, I do not see a large difference in abilities with the Battle Companies and Reserve Companies in a Chapter as they fulfill different tasks and being in a Reserve Company does not mean that they will not see combat. Indeed, in many Chapters, the reserve companies undertake taskings that available Battle Companies are either not ready or not suited for.

 

Evidence of scouts newly promoted to the status of "battle brother" can be seen in the novel Brothers of the Snake, where Priad is sent to Baal Solock to prove himself as a full-fledged member of the Phratry.

[greatcrusade08]

Evidence of scouts newly promoted to the status of "battle brother" can be seen in the novel Brothers of the Snake, where Priad is sent to Baal Solock to prove himself as a full-fledged member of the Phratry.

 

dan abnett likes to stick to the old fashioned way of scout advancement as his work on the ultramarines movie proved.. this is easily explained in terms of loose canon and it has no bearing on actual canon laid out in the more recent codex.

Also note the brothers of the snake was released before the 5th ed codex.

[Ferrata]

Additionally note that the Iron Snakes are far from a codex chapter and therefore would have an irregular advancement of their recruits, as do the Space Wolves.

[exetus]

I think that I probably wasn't all-too-clear in what I meant by my post. I was simply trying to show how reserves are typically NOT your most capable force in modern miltiaries, so that the structuring of the Codex is, indeed sound. That being said, the example I gave was one to support that they could go directly to a line unit and not a reserve one. You also see this in Sons of Dorn which IS 5th edition, although once again a novel and subject to the author's own interpretation of a Codex Chapter.

[greatcrusade08]

under 5th edition the reserve chapters form much of the recruits training.. in older editions scouts spent longer in the tenth before going staright to tactical companies.

every single aspect changed with the release of 5th ed.. unfortunately i see alot of discussions go south simply becuase one side is still referencing older material.

 

its not possible for a scout to bypass the reserves and go to battle companies, becuase they lack alot of the traning necessary to survive under those conditions.

[Octavulg]

Me, I think it makes more sense for them to go to whatever Reserve Company suits them, then to Battle Companies. Whether that be Tactical, Devastator, or Assault.

[greatcrusade08]

Me, I think it makes more sense for them to go to whatever Reserve Company suits them, then to Battle Companies. Whether that be Tactical, Devastator, or Assault.

 

that is kind of what happens in some cases, the codex itself notes that alot of marines dont make the cut as tac marines.. some 'choose' to remain as devs or assault marines.. its these guys that make up the bulk of a battle companies other squads.

its a degree of 'specialisation' within a codex chapter, but it does allow for individual strengths to grow..

 

also its entirely possible to enter veterancy without training as a tac marine, the vanguard veterans are noted as specialising heavily in assault duties.

 

to clarify the steps are still correct 10 -> 9th -> 8th -> 6.7th -> 2-5th.. but at the first two stages they can elect to specialise.. when a battle company looks to the reserve assault company for replacements for its assault squads it would take the 'specialists' over the guys that are just there for 'training' (best man for the job and all that)..

basically 8th and 9th companies are made up of two types of marine, those who specialise and those who are just passing through.

[Octavulg]

It's still silly to train people as specialists, then as other specialists (in the complete opposite direction), then as generalists.

 

Training them as generalists, then as further generalists or as a particular kind of specialist makes rather more sense.

[greatcrusade08]

It's still silly to train people as specialists, then as other specialists (in the complete opposite direction), then as generalists.

 

Training them as generalists, then as further generalists or as a particular kind of specialist makes rather more sense.

 

i think your not understanding my point, perhaps its my fault, who knows.

they dont train marines as specialists, its true you can choose to specialise but thats not the same thing.

 

in medical schools when training to be a doctor (and as thier first few years) they give them yearly placements to make sure they are trained in all aspects of medicine.. just becuase they spend a year as a surgical placement doesnt mean they are specialising in surgical medicine.

however to keep this analogy going, that same trainee/new doctor could choose to specialise in surgery if they showed an aptitude for it.

 

this is the same, each step is simply learning another skill, in preperation to become a tactical marine (who in 5th is the epitome of a space marine).. they are fully trained in all aspects of war and are truelly 'tactical'

It also allows for a greater control of replacements as your going to get fully or mostly trained replacements for casualties, instead of green scouts with no real idea.

In the reserve companies you have marines who have 'specialised' and you have those who are just there to 'learn' skills needed in the future.

[NightrawenII]

It's still silly to train people as specialists, then as other specialists (in the complete opposite direction), then as generalists.

 

Training them as generalists, then as further generalists or as a particular kind of specialist makes rather more sense.

i think your not understanding my point, perhaps its my fault, who knows.

they dont train marines as specialists, its true you can choose to specialise but thats not the same thing.

 

in medical schools when training to be a doctor (and as thier first few years) they give them yearly placements to make sure they are trained in all aspects of medicine.. just becuase they spend a year as a surgical placement doesnt mean they are specialising in surgical medicine.

however to keep this analogy going, that same trainee/new doctor could choose to specialise in surgery if they showed an aptitude for it.

 

this is the same, each step is simply learning another skill, in preperation to become a tactical marine (who in 5th is the epitome of a space marine).. they are fully trained in all aspects of war and are truelly 'tactical'

It also allows for a greater control of replacements as your going to get fully or mostly trained replacements for casualties, instead of green scouts with no real idea.

In the reserve companies you have marines who have 'specialised' and you have those who are just there to 'learn' skills needed in the future.

The problem is that the 8th and 9th Co's are specialised formations, having these dudes here 'just to learn the skill' is kind of silly.

 

To use your own example, it's like that doctor-in-training actually performed major surgery.

 

++++

In my Chapter are Scouts transferred to "Tactical" Reserve Company, where they learn everything they need, including use of jump-packs, support weapons and basic vehicles and then they are transferred to specialized squads, based on their predispositions and skills.

 

Simplest.

[Arkangilos]

++++

In my Chapter are Scouts transferred to "Tactical" Reserve Company, where they learn everything they need, including use of jump-packs, support weapons and basic vehicles and then they are transferred to specialized squads, based on their predispositions and skills.

 

Simplest.

 

Except that Codex: Space Marine and Codex: Blood Angels both say that a space marine first becomes an assault marine, then they move onto the devastators to learn about defense and heavy weapons, and then finally to the tacticals, where they hone skills learned from both of thier previous postings.

 

So, the way the codex puts it is how GreatCrusader put it.

Saying that, if you have brand new marines who, by codex standards, become assault marines, would you not want to put them with the specialized Assault Company? That way the surgeon in training can have hand on experiences with other surgeons who have already experienced it.

 

But, I guess each chapter can do it their own way, so more power to you :tu:

[Octavulg]

That's how the Codex puts it this edition. For the umpteen years before that, it worked differently.

[NightrawenII]

++++

In my Chapter are Scouts transferred to "Tactical" Reserve Company, where they learn everything they need, including use of jump-packs, support weapons and basic vehicles and then they are transferred to specialized squads, based on their predispositions and skills.

 

Simplest.

Except that Codex: Space Marine and Codex: Blood Angels both say that a space marine first becomes an assault marine, then they move onto the devastators to learn about defense and heavy weapons, and then finally to the tacticals, where they hone skills learned from both of thier previous postings.

 

So, the way the codex puts it is how GreatCrusader put it.

Saying that, if you have brand new marines who, by codex standards, become assault marines, would you not want to put them with the specialized Assault Company? That way the surgeon in training can have hand on experiences with other surgeons who have already experienced it.

 

But, I guess each chapter can do it their own way, so more power to you :P

What part of "In my Chapter... " did you not understand? Nowhere in my post I'm talking about the codex way or the codex Chapter. :huh:

 

Seriously dude, pay attention to what I'm saying before you hit the 'quote' button. All of your posts recently are nothing than load of twaddle, because you are unable to catch the point of my argument and you spend half of the time talking about some unsubstantial nonsense.

[greatcrusade08]

sounds like trouble brewing.. honestly guys it doesnt matter, every chapter has it own unique methods, im all for NightrawenII having his own methods.

especially considering he has given it some thought and worked out that his way makes a little more sense (entirely objective of course)

He should be commended for creating his own DIY backstory and reseacrhing it through properly..

 

i simply state what the codex 5th edition tells us and try to understand it from the points they give us.. in essence im arguing someone elses opinions.

 

its one of those things im easy on tbh, as octy says it has worked differently for many years previous to 5th ed so if anyone wants to stick to the old ways im cool with that.

however that being said whenever there is a discussion/argument i always come down on the side of actual canon.

[Arkangilos]

Sorry, I accedentally missed quoting the first part (when you said, "The problem is that the 8th and 9th Co's are specialised formations, having these dudes here 'just to learn the skill' is kind of silly.") I am working from a crappy computer, so I will miss something sometimes that I meant to add in.

That was supposed to be in the quote as well.

 

Also, you seemed to have missed the part when I said, "But, I guess each chapter can do it their own way, so more power to you :D" In which case I was saying that each chapter does do it their own way, and that it did not matter.

 

You use the, "Well, what makes you so much better than the codex" statement on every one elses posts when they have minor deviations from the codex, but when someone uses that on you (even though I had actually said that each chapter can do it differantly), you flip out?

Sounds like some one has a bad case of hypocracy.