Plasma cannon/TL-Autocannon Dreadnoughts

[Tangamarine]

Are Plasma cannon/TL-Autocannon Dreadnoughts viable?

I am thinking of running 2 in my list, follow the link in my sig, but as a whole are they a good option.

 

Discuss

 

Thanks

Brother Dvorn

[spartan249]

It looks alright. Good for disabling transports, then melting the occupants afterward.

[Tangamarine]

Also, if the configeration hasn't already been christened, a good name could be the "Sunrifle"

[DarkGuard]

It looks alright. Good for disabling transports, then melting the occupants afterward.

 

However, wouldn't you get better usage out of one Rifleman Dread and one plasma cannon Dread? The first pops the transport and the second then melts the occupants, all on the same turn.

 

Personally, I don't understand why people are constantly trying to find autocannon alternatives for Dreads. The whole points of a Rifleman is to rip transports apart not by quality but quantity of shots, which it does well with 4 twin-linked strength 7 shots at effective 54" range for the cheap cost of 125pts. If you take one of it's autocannons off you're significantly hurting it's effectiveness. In my experience 2 shots isn't enough to knock out a tank. When I used to run Typhoons singularly they were awful at it, which is why I turned to the Rifleman Dread. And now Typhoons are awesome at anti-transport due to squadrons where they get 4 shots.

 

Basically, some units in the Space Marine Codex benefit from being flexible. Tactical squads, Speeders and Sternguard are some examples. Others, however, benefit from having a focus, and IMO the Dread is one of them.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

However, wouldn't you get better usage out of one Rifleman Dread and one plasma cannon Dread? The first pops the transport and the second then melts the occupants, all on the same turn.

 

A true enough statement, a rifleman is capable of tearing apart transports better than a sunrifle dread, but this is where the old conundrum kicks in. As we all know, a unit with a singular purpose will be stronger at that particular discipline than other units in your army, however they then lose the ability to adapt and fight multiple targets. The rifleman rips apart tin cans as if it were a can opener, however it lacks the ability to then do much to the unit its just opened up, whilst the sunrifle will have a much harder time opening the tin can, it'll then be able to attack whats inside.

 

Its almost impossible to say which is better, there are benefits to both, however in your particular army, which has more benefits?

[ShinyRhino]

Well, you do have to weigh the fact that there'll be two Dreads in the list.

If you go for one Rifleman, and one plasmacannon Dread you have two separate threats: an anti-tank threat, and an anti-troop threat. If I'm across the table from you with a mechanized force, I'm shooting at the Rifledread first. the decision is easy. The plasma Dread is barely effective at demeching me, where the Rifledread is a viable threat to my Rhinos and other armor.

Now, if you run two of these "Sunrifle" (that sounds suspiciously like xenostech, pal!) Dreads, I now have no clear and easy choice of what to shoot. Even if I killor neuter one of those, you still have the other one that fills the exact same mixed role that you can point at me. I now have to kill or cripple twice as many Dreads in a single turn to eliminate the threat to my transports.

[DarkGuard]

I understand what you're saying ShinyRhino and Grim, but in my experience two shots at strength 7 won't do much (well 3, kind off). Riflemans are good because they're focussed, and they don't have to worry about being versatile because there is something else to kill all the infantry while they cope with the transports. I can see the merits in it, but I know that I'd prefer to have my Dreads as Riflemans and let other units take care of the units inside.

[ShinyRhino]

I understand what you're saying ShinyRhino and Grim, but in my experience two shots at strength 7 won't do much (well 3, kind off). Riflemans are good because they're focussed, and they don't have to worry about being versatile because there is something else to kill all the infantry while they cope with the transports. I can see the merits in it, but I know that I'd prefer to have my Dreads as Riflemans and let other units take care of the units inside.

 

Well, that response is more of a "do it a different way entirely" as opposed to a response to the actual question ;). When presented with an X or Y problem, you just answered Z :P.

 

The important thing to note is that Dreads are the only platform for plasma cannons in the standard Marine codex that isn't subject to Gets Hot! rolls. The OP might want to get plasma cannons in his force, but not want to risk frying his own troopers to do so. Or, he may have a more mobile force, and not want his units sitting still to fire heavy weaponry.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

This is something that is hard to get a solid grasp of though, particularly when list building.

 

Is a unit strong in 1 discipline worth it, or is a unit with the ability to do many jobs more of an investment. There is NO right answer as you either end up with an army of multi-tasking units, making it hard to discern what to kill first, but also not being as vicious in output. Or an army full of units that will tag team with each other and dish out some real hurt, although killing off 1 unit will then sever a large chunk of its ability from the army. Its partly a preference in playstyle.

 

 

Sometimes its just a matter of turning an already decent unit into a better one. For instance a MM speeder will usually warrant an additional HF if there are spare points, making it a powerful dual weapon platform. Its things like our tacticals and dreadnoughts that are the topic of debate. For instance do you make your tactical squad as anti-meq as possible by loading up on plasma? Or do you try and spread out its roles to handle everything from tanks to troops? Same with dreads, if you give it a lascannon arm, do you give it a heavy flamer?

 

Duality is nice, but more so if you are going to have many dual purpose units and have the points to apply bells and whistles. Its also important to remember that whilst you can make a unit dual purpose, it can lose out to stronger units.

[DerekLee688]

A stock Rifleman or ML/PC Dreads would be better at their respective jobs AT or Anti infantry. A TL-AC/ML might be better at what you're trying to acomplish, but PC being AP2 and same price is hard to turn down.

[minigun762]

I think it could work, the Plasma Cannon has the same S and a similar enough range to be effective at hurting light armor.

 

Having said that, it does dilute the niche role of the Rifleman a bit and I'm not sure that I would field it personally. If I wanted a PC Dreadnought, I find the ML to be a better match due to the flexibility of also having a blast template for infantry or better S and AP then the AutoCannon against MCs. Plus the stubby nature of both weapons is more visually appealing together then the lean look of the TL Autocannons.

[Xeonic]

It's an interesting idea, methinks. Both dreads would boast significant antipersonel power, plus a fair amount of anti transport power(come on, hitting the broad side of a rhino or chimera with a small blast isn't that hard and you know it :lol: ). In contrast to fielding a PC dread and a Rifleman dread, you're presenting no single point of failure and no obvious focus, and in exchange you lose out on a single S7 shot per dread and gain a little uncertainty(though on average scatter you'll still hit the rhino hull).

 

I've in the past fielded ML/PC dreads, which are a similar concept, except vs light infantry you have another small blast and vs heavy infantry you're firing that second shot at AP3 so wound allocation shenanigans are minimized. Vs light armor the ML/PC does even worse though, being barely adequate. Fortunately the list I was fielding it in had plenty of anti transport firepower. The downside to this is that the dread ML is quite blah, despite being S8 and AP3 it's neither multi-shot nor twin-linked and costs the same as weapons that are one or the other. The Dread ML does look fantastic though IMO.

[Hellios]

Not the same thing but I take plasma cannons in droves in my dark angels combat patrol force :D and also include them in my long fangs for my space wolves list. While not as good as as auto-cannons or missile launchers at popping vehicles I do find they are ok early in the game (when everything is meched up) or later on if infantry has been killed at destroying transports... Obviously the ideal target is packed elite infantry.

 

I wouldn't think that an auto-cannon/plasma cannon would be that bad a combo... 3 S7 shots should do against light vehicles (maybe not as good as 4) and the plasma cannon will certainly dish out the pain on infantry... I wouldn't say it is a bad choice... is it the best choice for you and your list... only one way top find out :)

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Sunrifle sounds kind of....tau...but im liking the configuration, i quite like my models to be able to handle more than one role in battle, so it naturally sits with me :P

[DarkGuard]

Well, that response is more of a "do it a different way entirely" as opposed to a response to the actual question ;). When presented with an X or Y problem, you just answered Z :P.

 

The important thing to note is that Dreads are the only platform for plasma cannons in the standard Marine codex that isn't subject to Gets Hot! rolls. The OP might want to get plasma cannons in his force, but not want to risk frying his own troopers to do so. Or, he may have a more mobile force, and not want his units sitting still to fire heavy weaponry.

 

True, but I do like Z ;).

 

I know it doesn't seem like it looking at what I've previously written, but I am all up for trying out new things. However, IMO it won't be as good for it's points as a Rifleman, and you can easily use another unit to wipe out the transports, so in my tactical opinion it's better to stick with the Rifleman. But if you like the look of it go for it and let us know how it gets on. As far as I'm concerned that's more things to add to my 101 :P.

[Tangamarine]

Would it suit this list? (last one at the bottom)

It is just I feel that the rifleman becomes useless say you are facing necrons etc, or an army with no vechiles, or a loganwing equivilent.

[DarkGuard]

Would it suit this list? (last one at the bottom)

It is just I feel that the rifleman becomes useless say you are facing necrons etc, or an army with no vechiles, or a loganwing equivilent.

 

I'd say no, as the thing about Rifleman is that they are vastly superior at knocking out transports, and they are you're only long-ranged anti-transport, so I'd keep them like that and not dilute their power.

 

I'd also say keep the Riflemans and LRR and not change to combi-preds and a LR, a LRR for Hammernators is much better than a LR, and Rifleman's beat combi-preds due to twin-linkage and being able to move and fire everything.

 

Also, you do know that if you dropped all the power fists on the Tactical squads you could get another MM/HF, and run them in two squadrons of 2? I'd look into that, power fists on Tactical squads aren't that good.

 

If you're desperate to get plasma cannons into that list I'd suggest sticking them on your meltagun/combi-melta squads. You will hardly use the MM in them as you'll be moving to get your other meltas in range. The MM will better fit the flamer squad as then it can do midfield, while the plasma cannon will give your melta squads versatility in that they can knock out infantry and have better range. Indeed, if I ran 3 Tactical squads two would be combi-flamer, flamer, MM, Rhino and the other would be powerfist, combi-melta, meltagun, plasma cannon, Rhino.

 

Hope that helps.