a couple of question

[radens]

Hi all, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

 

1. When dreadnought have no cc arms left, how many attack do he have? 1? In brb its stated that when walker losses a ccw arm, he loses the "extra attack" it gives him. So, simply put - does that mean that the basic 2A written in the statline are considered 1 basic A + 1 A given by ccw arm, or does he have 2 basic atacks and the ccw arm gives him only the double S and power weapon?

 

2. The free vehicle pivot - I always considered it to be free in terms of weapon shooting, for example that the predator can make a free pivot and still fire all its weapons. But tournament judge said that vehicle can make a pivot, and then move full 6/12". This changes a lot, because with huge tanks like LR you can gain some distance. So the question is - was the judge right?

 

3. I was playing with some dude that assaulted my unit through a wall. The story goes like this - after assaulting he had half of a unit in a building and half in the open, he must done that because of coherency. There were no windows in the building, "solid" plastic wall with no openings. He said that the models behind the wall still participate in combat because they are in 2" of fighting models (true, they were). I replied that it is bull:cuss and there is no way that they could fight through a :D WALL. But knowing that the rules are often illogical I let him do that. Was that legal?

 

Bless all who will answer!

 

++ Don't be silly and try to dodge the swear filter. Use the :cuss emoticon please. I ++

[narf]

1) The dreadnought has a base attack line, this is not modified by the loss of a weapon, the first weapons doubles strength, the 2nd adds +1 attack (note though that some weapons dont do this, and some dreadnoughts have bracketed attacks to show the extra attacks added)

 

2) The free pivot allows the tank to turn without counting as moving. If you are also moving you can make pivots at any point on the move, and this doesnt add to your movement moved. Just remember that no point of the vehicle can be further forward that the move made and your sorted.

 

3) since the scenery is abstract, but we use true LOS it can get confusing, generally its easy enough to say make a difficuly terrain test and see where the models make it too when assaulting a non solid structure, such as a ruin. If its an undamaged building (ie has an armour value) then it counts as a vehicle they need a door to get though to reach people and cant "wraith" through the walls (unless they are wraiths)

[Isiah]

1. When dreadnought have no cc arms left, how many attack do he have? 1? In brb its stated that when walker losses a ccw arm, he loses the "extra attack" it gives him. So, simply put - does that mean that the basic 2A written in the statline are considered 1 basic A + 1 A given by ccw arm, or does he have 2 basic atacks and the ccw arm gives him only the double S and power weapon?

The walker only gains an additional attack if it is armed with two or more close combat weapons. If he only has one (or none) then it has no bonus cc attacks and it uses its statline attacks only. It will still get the +1 for charging though.

 

2. The free vehicle pivot - I always considered it to be free in terms of weapon shooting, for example that the predator can make a free pivot and still fire all its weapons. But tournament judge said that vehicle can make a pivot, and then move full 6/12". This changes a lot, because with huge tanks like LR you can gain some distance. So the question is - was the judge right?

For movement and firing purposes just pivoting on the spot does not count as moving. When moving you can turn as many times as you like as long as you don't exceed your movement distance. So yes the judge is right. But I don't see how tanks 'gain some distance' (?) as you always measure the start/stop of the movement distance from the same point of the vehicle.

[Tanhausen]

@Isiah

 

Movement gain by pivot: you deploy with the side right on the deployment "line". In your turn, you pivot and gain 1 or 2 inches and then move.

[Leonaides]

which is illegal. Your pivot cannot gain you extra inches.

[Grey Mage]

which is illegal. Your pivot cannot gain you extra inches.

No, sadly, thats not true. Vehicles rotate over their center-point, as per pg. 57, and thus almost every vehicle in the game will gain some distance using this ability.

[Tanhausen]

@Leonaides

 

Its been discussed ad nauseam... but in the end, nowhere in the book/s does it say you can't do that.

 

And it does clearly state that in your turn you can pivot so...its not a matter gaining inches (which you do) but wether you can deploy or not in that way, which you can.

[dswanick]

3. I was playing with some dude that assaulted my unit through a wall. The story goes like this - after assaulting he had half of a unit in a building and half in the open, he must done that because of coherency. There were no windows in the building, "solid" plastic wall with no openings. He said that the models behind the wall still participate in combat because they are in 2" of fighting models (true, they were). I replied that it is bull:cuss and there is no way that they could fight through a :D WALL. But knowing that the rules are often illogical I let him do that. Was that legal?

Hmm, as described - no. You mention it being a Building several times. Models inside an intact Building are treated in all ways the same way as a unit embarked inside a vehicle. A unit can not be half in and half out of a Building and two units may not occupy the same Building at the same time. Also, they may not be assaulted when "embark" in the Building. (BRB, Pg.79)

If, however, you meant the unit is in Ruins, then - yes. Ruin walls are difficult terrain and a unit assaulting through them must roll a Difficult terrain test and will strike at I1, but the wall in no way changes who fights in the assault, unless agreed to before hand. (BRB, Pg.83)

3) since the scenery is abstract, but we use true LOS it can get confusing, generally its easy enough to say make a difficuly terrain test and see where the models make it too when assaulting a non solid structure, such as a ruin. If its an undamaged building (ie has an armour value) then it counts as a vehicle they need a door to get though to reach people and cant "wraith" through the walls (unless they are wraiths)

If an undamaged Building is occupied by a unit, another unit may not "embark" into the building and may not assault the unit within, door or no. (BRB, Pg.79)

[greatcrusade08]

which is illegal. Your pivot cannot gain you extra inches.

 

i actually agree with leonaides, the pivot move is not supposed to allow for extra movement, its a free pivot to change facing is all.

unfortunately things like dark eldar transports are long and narrow which means they can gain a few inches with a pivot.

personally if anyone tried this on me they would recieve some choice 4 letter words and a back hander with the BRB..

 

some things are just too rediculous even if they arent covered by actual RAW.

 

i always counter with "movement is the difference in inches between the hull of your vehcile at the start and end of your movement turns".. if you start side on to your deployment zone, pivot and move 12", then youve technically moved 15" becuase of the distance travlled by the front of your hull".

i realise many people can counter this with clever RAW interpretations, but every decent player i know frowns at these kind of asshat people that try this rubbish

[Frosty the Pyro]

On the point of the "wall" it depends entirely on if it was a wall (which is verticly impasable terrain), or part of area terrain (such as a ruin). If its part of area terrain such as the wall of a ruin, it is simply difficult terrain and it it has no more effect on close combat than a forest would. If its an actual wall it can not be assaulted through in the first place, unless you are using 4 ed nids with flesh hooks.

[Grey Mage]

which is illegal. Your pivot cannot gain you extra inches.

 

i actually agree with leonaides, the pivot move is not supposed to allow for extra movement, its a free pivot to change facing is all.

unfortunately things like dark eldar transports are long and narrow which means they can gain a few inches with a pivot.

personally if anyone tried this on me they would recieve some choice 4 letter words and a back hander with the BRB..

GC08, even a rhino gains extra movement from pivoting over the center, as does a landspeeder storm.

 

.... because theyre not perfect spheres. Almost every vehicle in 40k, much like in real life, is longer than it is wide. They all gain distance whenever they turn to some extent or another- and the players controlling them are following the rules when they do so.

 

So backhanding them with the brb would be shooting yourself in the foot- since RAW theyre doing everything correctly.

[Gaz1858]

1. When dreadnought have no cc arms left, how many attack do he have? 1? In brb its stated that when walker losses a ccw arm, he loses the "extra attack" it gives him. So, simply put - does that mean that the basic 2A written in the statline are considered 1 basic A + 1 A given by ccw arm, or does he have 2 basic atacks and the ccw arm gives him only the double S and power weapon?

 

Dreadnoughts lose 1A for each Crew Stunned or Immobilised result they suffer to a minimum of 1. Loss of arms etc has no bearing on number of attacks.

 

2. The free vehicle pivot - I always considered it to be free in terms of weapon shooting, for example that the predator can make a free pivot and still fire all its weapons. But tournament judge said that vehicle can make a pivot, and then move full 6/12". This changes a lot, because with huge tanks like LR you can gain some distance. So the question is - was the judge right?

 

Grey area. I'd say yes but can understand both points of view.

 

3. I was playing with some dude that assaulted my unit through a wall. The story goes like this - after assaulting he had half of a unit in a building and half in the open, he must done that because of coherency. There were no windows in the building, "solid" plastic wall with no openings. He said that the models behind the wall still participate in combat because they are in 2" of fighting models (true, they were). I replied that it is bull:cuss and there is no way that they could fight through a WALL. But knowing that the rules are often illogical I let him do that. Was that legal?

 

After moving your unit in to base contact he then moves his unit up to 6" to get either in base to base or as close as possible. Any model within 2" of a member of the same unit that is in base to base may assault.

 

Even though some were behind a wall they would still be allowed to fight if they met the above requirements. It is to signify the swirling melee going on and "real life" where in an assualt models would be moving about alot and not fighting from a fixed standing point.

[greatcrusade08]

which is illegal. Your pivot cannot gain you extra inches.

 

i actually agree with leonaides, the pivot move is not supposed to allow for extra movement, its a free pivot to change facing is all.

unfortunately things like dark eldar transports are long and narrow which means they can gain a few inches with a pivot.

personally if anyone tried this on me they would recieve some choice 4 letter words and a back hander with the BRB..

GC08, even a rhino gains extra movement from pivoting over the center, as does a landspeeder storm.

 

.... because theyre not perfect spheres. Almost every vehicle in 40k, much like in real life, is longer than it is wide. They all gain distance whenever they turn to some extent or another- and the players controlling them are following the rules when they do so.

 

So backhanding them with the brb would be shooting yourself in the foot- since RAW theyre doing everything correctly.

 

 

when your in game and someone turns a rhino it hardly becomes an issue, when someone starts a dark eldar transport sideways on the 12" deployment zone to purposely gain inches for a first turn assault or somesuch then it becomes a different matter..

intent is a big issue for me when it comes to grey area rules and like i said the rule was intended to allow a vehicle to change facing.. it makes no sense to award 'free movement'

im not saying the rules dont allow for it, im saying its an asshat move to abuse it they way some people do.

 

i NEVER start my LSS sideways on in order to garner extra movement, and i usually measure to and from the base to ensure im not moving more than i should.

You can call it a RAW issue if you want, but to be honest i see it as 'legalised cheating'.. its one thing to have to make a turn in a rhino its another to start the game sideways knowing your going to steal inches on your first turn.

after all its legal to shoot a scotsman in york with a bow.. doesnt mean we should all go out and try a bit or archery.

 

obviously this is a rules forum and i expect the counter argument that RAW is RAW, but common sense and fair play over-write RAW in my book.

[Grey Mage]

Im not saying you started that way GC08- Im saying that each and every time it turns its going to gain an inches worth of movement.

 

And I understand- a number of the DE players were being jerks about the whole thing- but my common sense tells me that Im not going to get to upset by it- instead Id have brought down the RAW hammer on them when they blew up their transports a few moments later.

 

My point is there isnt a single transport in the game that doesnt gain atleast half an inch though- and most gain more. I dont think its something to rage over. *shrugs*

[Gaz1858]

after all its legal to shoot a scotsman in york with a bow.. doesnt mean we should all go out and try a bit or archery.

 

May need to make sure we never have an Ultrameet in york then that i come to!!!

 

It's legal to kick an English person in the nads if this is attempted. Gospel.

[greatcrusade08]

Im not saying you started that way GC08- Im saying that each and every time it turns its going to gain an inches worth of movement.

I think weve established that the odd inch of movement turning a corner doesnt really matter.. tbh most people i know simply bend thier tape measure instead of playing out the move properly.. even so with tanks its hardly an issue.. the issue is with skimmers mainly who dont actually have to make turns they simply pivot and move.. it can be quite easy to ask someone to use base to base measurements to avoid taking inches

 

And I understand- a number of the DE players were being jerks about the whole thing-

It was a DE player who first educated me to the ways of rules lawyering in this case.

 

but my common sense tells me that Im not going to get to upset by it-

I dont think its something to rage over. *shrugs*

 

you should know me by now... zero tolerance for BS.. i should have it tatooed on my forehead ;)

its not that i get upset, i just stand against anything which fractures my sense of principles.. something which causes me to speak with the mods here more than id like. :P

 

after all its legal to shoot a scotsman in york with a bow.. doesnt mean we should all go out and try a bit or archery.

 

May need to make sure we never have an Ultrameet in york then that i come to!!!

its also illegal to eat mince pies on xmas day, its treason to put a postage stamp on upside down (if it has the queens head on it), and allowing your pet to copulate with a pet of the royal court carries a death sentence. (for you not your pet)

what a wonderful country we live in (well until you moved to OZ anyway)

[Grey Mage]

I dont think its something to rage over. *shrugs*

 

you should know me by now... zero tolerance for BS.. i should have it tatooed on my forehead ;)

its not that i get upset, i just stand against anything which fractures my sense of principles.. something which causes me to speak with the mods here more than id like. :tu:

One mans meat is another mans poison. Its all about being fair- in opportunity. Some people will take more advantage of that than others, but those who do tend to cross the line eventually, in games, in life, and with the law. You cant legislate morality, you can only provide a framework for good actions.

 

I dont know any marine, IG, or ork players who bend the tape measurer- they move, pivot, move, pivot, as needed. Asking a player to do otherwise just because they have a skimmer isnt fair. Im sorry that the DE players in your area abused this, but if 2" on one turn made the difference between win and loss, perhaps it wasnt solid enough to count anyways.

 

It also breaks down- if measurements for movement are taken from the stem, or part of the base, are they allowed to deploy past the 12" marker with the rest of their craft *ie, is the base used for all measurements, or just the ones that you see as unfit?*. What about disembarking? DE craft- and LSS- are open topped, so do you deploy using the base or the hull like RAW says we should?

[greatcrusade08]

It also breaks down- if measurements for movement are taken from the stem, or part of the base, are they allowed to deploy past the 12" marker with the rest of their craft *ie, is the base used for all measurements, or just the ones that you see as unfit?*. What about disembarking? DE craft- and LSS- are open topped, so do you deploy using the base or the hull like RAW says we should?

 

i always deploy so the hull is behind the 12" deployment zone, and i never start side on to gain movement.. physical movement is measured with the base whilst the hull is always pointing in the direction of movement/shooting.

for disembark i use the hull, but becuase you/i havent abused the movement this is nothing untoward.. the only other issue that could arise is shooting, but im always happy to forgo shooting if i can only reach due to the 'free pivot move'.

it sounds complex, but its really not, i simply remove the possibilty of gaining free movement.. i dont expect others to be this careful, but i would take exception to the more extreme examples like the DE

 

i realise i cant legislate morality for others, but i can control how my own games go and how much i let my opponents get away with..

even so morality has to be considered in a social envirnoment, sometimes as gamers we need to ensure we keep the spirit of the game intact and play as gentlemen, even in competative settings.

 

I dont know any marine, IG, or ork players who bend the tape measurer- they move, pivot, move, pivot, as needed. Asking a player to do otherwise just because they have a skimmer isnt fair. Im sorry that the DE players in your area abused this, but if 2" on one turn made the difference between win and loss, perhaps it wasnt solid enough to count anyways.

it isnt about losing becuase someone tries this, odds are it wont get them much of a bonus, however there is an underlying principle of fairness and ruleslawyering.

personally if they are going to be that petty about something that small, then they need an attitude adjustment, they dont respect the game or thier opponents.

thats just my opinion.. with me things arent always about the content but about intent and principles

 

edit: i should probably let the conversation get back on track huh?

[Grey Mage]

edit: i should probably let the conversation get back on track huh?

The questions been answered, I dont think a bit of a philosophical talk about the application of these rules is out of hand.

 

And Im still saying that you can put whatever restraints on yourself you like, it doesnt make other people bad sports for playing the game the way it is. Some people will take it a step further, and that can be frustrating, but frankly I dont think theres a single player of any experience who hasnt at some point accidentally found themselves 1/4 farther than they aught to be, and that in the case of vehicles the rules specifically were made with pivoting on the center point as a primary part of movement. This wasnt without though either- Ive seen far more shinanigans caused by people measuring from a specific part of the hull for their movement.

 

But, as I said- one mans meat is another mans poison.

[radens]

before it turns into full scale war about pivoting, I would like to return to the dreadnought ccw question - what about ork Deffdread? he has 3 basic attacks and two ccw arms. Does that mean that after losing one of those arms he still has 3 attacks?

[Tanhausen]

How come each time GC08 shows up, the post's length treble? :P

 

IMO, you can be as picky as you want... in your friendly games :)

 

If you show up to a tourney, you know there is nothing you can do besides giving a dirty look to your opponent.

 

Besides, there is an up side: if you steal initiative, you'll catch him on the lateral armour ;)

[Grey Mage]

before it turns into full scale war about pivoting, I would like to return to the dreadnought ccw question - what about ork Deffdread? he has 3 basic attacks and two ccw arms. Does that mean that after losing one of those arms he still has 3 attacks?

Yes- as per the ork FAQ the extra attack is included in the profile, and so an ork deff dread with 3 CCWs has a total of 4 attacks.

[Ming]

Pivoting is a move you make to reface a vehicle and it has a range of 0 inches, is meant to be able to fire weapons within their arc and not count as moving.

 

In moving you can change directions and such. For all practical purposes, the distance moved is measured center to center, not side, pivot to front (yielding 2-3 additional inches) then move distance. This can be played pretty loose by players with long vehicles - and does deserve an impact to the forehead with the BRB. Anyone pulling that for additional advantage deserves to be beaten soundly, because it may be all they have.

[Venemox]

Pivoting is a move you make to reface a vehicle and it has a range of 0 inches, is meant to be able to fire weapons within their arc and not count as moving.

 

In moving you can change directions and such. For all practical purposes, the distance moved is measured center to center, not side, pivot to front (yielding 2-3 additional inches) then move distance. This can be played pretty loose by players with long vehicles - and does deserve an impact to the forehead with the BRB. Anyone pulling that for additional advantage deserves to be beaten soundly, because it may be all they have.

 

Not so fast there, let's see what that BRB you're threatening to hit people with says:

 

Page 56 "Vehicles & Measuring Distances": 'Instead, for dinstances involving a vehicle, measure to or from the hull'. So, I MUST measure to and from the hull, not 'center'.

 

Page 57 'Vehicles and Movement": 'Vehicles pivot by turning on the spot about their centre-point, rather than 'wheeling' round. Turning does not reduce the vehicle's move.'. So, pivoting MUST be around the 'center' point.

 

So, if I want my tank to go to the end of some impassable terrain, turn left, and continue on, I must:

 

1) Measure from the hull of the tank to the point I want stop at, past the terrains edge.

2) Pivot the tank on its centre-point.

3) Measure from the tanks hull to its new stop point.

 

For any vehicle longer than it is wide, there is going to be some gain on the pivot. I don't consider a vehicle undergoing a pivot as part of its regular movement as 'pivoting for advantage'. Tanks and most wheeled vehicles simply don't move sideways well (unless Magna-Grappled!), so pivoting is a must for moving anything except directly forward or backwards.

 

I can't get the INAT FAQ at work, but I'm pretty sure it addressed the issue of deploying sideways, then pivoting and moving on turn 1 as an 'acceptable and negligible' use of the RAW. After all, they can only do it once. Doesn't make it right, but it's one of those things that is perfectly legal in every sense.

 

Another point of view on this involves the strategy of driving the Rhino/Razorback up to enemy, and then next turn pivoting to allow your troops to disembark and shoot/assault from a closer position. Since pivoting doesn't count as movement, a perfectly legal and widely accepted practice.

[Grey Mage]

Thank you Venemox, for expanding on the basic reason I cant blame people for doing this, even if it does sometimes work to their advantage.

 

Malign intent or not.