Banshee Mask vs Psychotroke

[Valkyrion]

Banshee Mask - in the first round of assault a model in a banshee mask has I10 and negates any initiative bonus confered by cover and grenades

 

Psychotroke Grenades - result 5 - the enemy unit is reduced to initiative 1 for the remainder of the assault phase

 

 

Which is it? Do banshees have I10 or I1?

 

Cheers.

[Morollan]

The effect of the grenades isn't a bonus and therefore isn't negated by the mask IMO

[Iron Father Rik]

No grenades' affects are "bonuses" though. Grenades are items of wargear that don't give you a "bonus" attack or "bonus" initiative, they negate the effects of things, or affect the enemy unit.

 

I'd say that since the Banshee Mask rule clearly states that it "negates ..... grenades" then the Psychotroke grenades do not work.

[Grey Mage]

The Grey Knight codex isnt out yet.

[Isiah]

With the GK Codex released today this is now open for business ;)

[Grey Mage]

The banshee mask only ignores initiative bonuses granted by grenades, not any other effects of grenades.

 

However, it does also say they are explicitly striking at I 10 when they assault.

 

Id call this a 4+ rolled after the assault has succeeded but before any blows are struck.

[Frosty the Pyro]

going by precident, banshee masks have traditionaly trumped other initive modifying wargear (for example lash whips), and while such a ruleing is not official, it is what i would go with if asked to make the call.

[djhg]

going by precident, banshee masks have traditionaly trumped other initive modifying wargear (for example lash whips), and while such a ruleing is not official, it is what i would go with if asked to make the call.

+1 for me here...

I was horrified to see an old codex rule trumping a new one written in the exact same wording, but either the Banshee mask is the penultimate modifier of Initiative or Tyranids simply suck that much more...

[Frosty the Pyro]

going by precident, banshee masks have traditionaly trumped other initive modifying wargear (for example lash whips), and while such a ruleing is not official, it is what i would go with if asked to make the call.

+1 for me here...

I was horrified to see an old codex rule trumping a new one written in the exact same wording, but either the Banshee mask is the penultimate modifier of Initiative or Tyranids simply suck that much more...

 

 

Are codex are on equal standing as fare as priority of their rules go, no mater how old or new they are. the what trumps what order is as follows

 

House Rules>errata>codex>BrB>that one guy that said that thing.

[djhg]

Are codex are on equal standing as fare as priority of their rules go, no mater how old or new they are. the what trumps what order is as follows

 

House Rules>errata>codex>BrB>that one guy that said that thing.

I was more shocked at 4th ed outdated codex trumps 5th ed codex...

 

But that one guythat said that thing, he seems totally legit. We can trust him right? :P

[Grey Mage]

Having looked it over, Id say they still strike at I10. Their actually initiative will be I1, wich will come up if for instance they sweeping advance that turn or were hit by jaws of the world wolf in a mutli-player game... but it wont change when they hit.

 

For the same reason that a Relic Blade is not affected by furious charge- you strike at S6 no matter what other modifiers there are, as its a static and unchanging value. So is the banshee masks I10.

[Dan VK]

Having looked it over, Id say they still strike at I10. Their actually initiative will be I1, wich will come up if for instance they sweeping advance that turn or were hit by jaws of the world wolf in a mutli-player game... but it wont change when they hit.

 

For the same reason that a Relic Blade is not affected by furious charge- you strike at S6 no matter what other modifiers there are, as its a static and unchanging value. So is the banshee masks I10.

To support Grey Mage's argument, here are the quotes:

 

"Disoriented, the enemy unit is reduced to Initiative 1 for the remainder of the Assault phase." C:GK pg60

 

"Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades." C:E pg31

 

"A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6." C:SM pg99

 

It looks clear to me.

[Valkyrion]

Right, so because it has a stated characteristic, rather than modifier, the Banshee Mask is usable?

The Banshees are still considered I1 for all other purposes except when using the Banshee Mask?

 

So models with Nemesis Halberds are I1, because the halberd adds +2I, which is then reduced to 1 by the grenades?

 

That it?

 

By the same token, any wargear (non comes to mind at the minute...) that reduce a models Strength would have no effect on models armed with a relic blade - their base S is reduced but because the wargear is always S6 they still strike at S6?

[Grey Mage]

Thats how Im reading it.

 

Another example is Gabriel Seth- who strikes at S8, furious charge or no.

[Spacefrisian]

Jaws of the Worldwolf doesnt do anything to reduce I. are you reffering to Thunderhammers instead (wich will kill the Banshee right away most likely unless we are talking about JZ)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Jaws of the Worldwolf doesnt do anything to reduce I. are you reffering to Thunderhammers instead (wich will kill the Banshee right away most likely unless we are talking about JZ)

I think he means that the grenades reduce them to I1 for the purposes of the initiative test that Jaws would force on them.

[Acebaur]

Having looked it over, Id say they still strike at I10. Their actually initiative will be I1, which will come up if for instance they sweeping advance that turn or were hit by jaws of the world wolf in a mutli-player game... but it wont change when they hit.

 

For the same reason that a Relic Blade is not affected by furious charge- you strike at S6 no matter what other modifiers there are, as its a static and unchanging value. So is the banshee masks I10.

 

They aren't I1 for sweeping advance. SA is always done on the model's unmodified I value. Pg 40 BRB.

[Valkyrion]

Sorry to bump this back up, but it seems that psychotroke trumps banshee mask

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=229114

 

--If a stubborn unit is assaulted by (or assaults) a unit with psychotroke grenades is their leadership modified by the 'They're Horrible' result? How does this interact with Ork Mob rule? Does the psychotroke grenades' 'The world is spinning' override Eldar Banshee masks? If 2 units, both with Psychotroke grenades assault a single unit do the results stack?

 

The stubborn units maintain their leadership as the stubborn special rule states that the unit always ignores negative modifiers when taking a morale tests (Pg 76) The same goes for the Ork Mob rule effected models as it says they too may always choose to substitute their leadership value with the number of Orks in their mob. As for the Banshees, they would be effected by the 'The World is Spinning' result in that they would have their initiative reduced (this effect is trumped by the psychotroke grenades) but the Banshee masks ability to negate any initiative bonus conferred by cover would still remain. As for stacking results, yes they do but if you roll up the same result it only applies once.

[timmytool]

I would say most/all of your Q's come under the FAQ request thread in the C:GK sub forum

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=224872

[Grey Mage]

Sorry to bump this back up, but it seems that psychotroke trumps banshee mask

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=229114

 

--If a stubborn unit is assaulted by (or assaults) a unit with psychotroke grenades is their leadership modified by the 'They're Horrible' result? How does this interact with Ork Mob rule? Does the psychotroke grenades' 'The world is spinning' override Eldar Banshee masks? If 2 units, both with Psychotroke grenades assault a single unit do the results stack?

 

The stubborn units maintain their leadership as the stubborn special rule states that the unit always ignores negative modifiers when taking a morale tests (Pg 76) The same goes for the Ork Mob rule effected models as it says they too may always choose to substitute their leadership value with the number of Orks in their mob. As for the Banshees, they would be effected by the 'The World is Spinning' result in that they would have their initiative reduced (this effect is trumped by the psychotroke grenades) but the Banshee masks ability to negate any initiative bonus conferred by cover would still remain. As for stacking results, yes they do but if you roll up the same result it only applies once.

And given two equal rules why do the grenades win out? Well, I guess it doesnt matter- they dont conflict.

 

The grenades make their I 1, and the masks allow them to strike at I10 regardless. They models I is treated as lower for the round- but much like a relicblade- the actual time of their attacks isnt affected by their I.

[timmytool]

it should be noted Valkyrion's link is to a GW hobby services email and is as official as me saying all gray knights players auto loss the game at the start of turn 2.

 

fine it adds weight but only a FAQ will be official

[DarkGuard]

it should be noted Valkyrion's link is to a GW hobby services email and is as official as me saying all gray knights players auto loss the game at the start of turn 2.

 

fine it adds weight but only a FAQ will be official

 

We've already had this debate on the relevant page. If Games Workshop say it it's official, but it can be superseded higher up. So for example, this is official until the new FAQ actually comes out. I'm afraid it is certainly more official than you saying that all Grey Knights players lose the game at the start of turn 2, unless you work for GW of course. Quite frankly, I don't see why people want to demean the efforts made by some people to get a rules response from GW. I'm certainly happier settling a rules dispute with that email than listening to two average players arguing about it all day, especially if GW in one form or another has said something about it already.

[Grey Mage]

Because emailing GW has been shown over the years to be about as reliable as asking a five year old what the weathers going to be on the farm tomorrow.

[Frosty the Pyro]

it should be noted Valkyrion's link is to a GW hobby services email and is as official as me saying all gray knights players auto loss the game at the start of turn 2.

 

fine it adds weight but only a FAQ will be official

 

We've already had this debate on the relevant page. If Games Workshop say it it's official, but it can be superseded higher up. So for example, this is official until the new FAQ actually comes out. I'm afraid it is certainly more official than you saying that all Grey Knights players lose the game at the start of turn 2, unless you work for GW of course. Quite frankly, I don't see why people want to demean the efforts made by some people to get a rules response from GW. I'm certainly happier settling a rules dispute with that email than listening to two average players arguing about it all day, especially if GW in one form or another has said something about it already.

 

I can say, with no reservations, that I have a better understanding of the rules than the people who respond to those emails, for no reason greater than at one point I have sat down and read the rule books. More over, historicly if you send the same question twice you will receive two different answers, that quite frequently contradict each other.

[DarkGuard]

It's still something that can settle a grey area debate, if only for a moment. I'd much rather get on and the play the game in question using a ruling from someone at GW then sit around arguing it all day, even if I have spent more time than them reading the rules.