minigun762 Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm starting to feel somewhat inadequate when it comes to using my basic CSMs in bulk. While they are decently priced and quite flexible, I'm noticing them having a harder time trying to tackle whatever is the flavor of the month's new super unit. At the moment I get by by trying to gang up on those squads after I've weakened them at range but its becoming harder to significantly damage them while still maintaining pressure on the rest of the army. I have thought about adding in units which are dedicated to taking out death-stars but other then Melta or Plasma Termicide squads, I'm not sure what that would be. So I'm asking what you guys are using or doing to handle those big nasty units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan The Deamon Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Have you tried running with some possessed? They don't have a great many options, but getting dragged into a CC fest is what they would handle better than any of our other choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corby Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Plasma and Melta termicide squads , as you already said , are a very good counter to most units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm starting to feel somewhat inadequate when it comes to using my basic CSMs in bulk. While they are decently priced and quite flexible, I'm noticing them having a harder time trying to tackle whatever is the flavor of the month's new super unit. At the moment I get by by trying to gang up on those squads after I've weakened them at range but its becoming harder to significantly damage them while still maintaining pressure on the rest of the army. I have thought about adding in units which are dedicated to taking out death-stars but other then Melta or Plasma Termicide squads, I'm not sure what that would be. So I'm asking what you guys are using or doing to handle those big nasty units. Lash + plasma cannon oblits, works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Melta or Plasma Termicide squads I'm a big fan of Plasmacide to take out Deathstar units. My opponent often runs a Deathstar unit of Assault Marines with a rock-hard Chapter Master (SS and Relic Blade, Artificer Armour, Digital Weapons and the like). My Plasmacide work great, as it forces him to either take casualties in his Non-Invuln Assault Marines, or risk having his Chapter Master shot up. I wouldn't consider this a "hard counter", as it can happily take out any other unit should it need to be diverted, but it does do a spectacular job of it. The same goes for Meltas VS Vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjenz Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Cheap, fast meltacide. Cheapest, fastest way to get 2 or more melta shots on the death star in the fastest timeframe. Me personally, I'd find the cheapest FA unit that could get 2+ meltas on the target. Bikers can get 2x meltas in a unit for 119 points. Tackle the vehicle, then put meltas on it. Lots of ways to do it, but cheap and fast wins, even if you only delay the thing for 2 turns. When the remainders of both armies favor you 2, maybe to 3 to 1 in point totals, you can get a lot done in those two turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I think it's not so much that we need counters to Death Star units as it is that everyone else has counters to ours. In the realm of the storm shield, you're not going to get better than plasma or melta at cracking them, and it's not going to be a cakewalk anyway. Given that nothing we have has a 3++ Save, our hardest Death Star unit involves MCs with EW or Abaddon, and everyone knows how to deal with them now because, let's face it, a 4++ Invul has become commonplace to have to face down. Everyone else's Death Stars blow up Alderaan; ours can't wrestle the ears off a Gundark. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Everyone else's Death Stars blow up Alderaan; ours can't wrestle the ears off a Gundark. :whistling: Amen to that. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I think it's not so much that we need counters to Death Star units as it is that everyone else has counters to ours. In the realm of the storm shield, you're not going to get better than plasma or melta at cracking them, and it's not going to be a cakewalk anyway. Given that nothing we have has a 3++ Save, our hardest Death Star unit involves MCs with EW or Abaddon, and everyone knows how to deal with them now because, let's face it, a 4++ Invul has become commonplace to have to face down. Everyone else's Death Stars blow up Alderaan; ours can't wrestle the ears off a Gundark. :cuss Well, not everyone. I sure would like to get ahold of the secret, because last time I tangled with Abaddon, he (and a chaos lord, and some terminators) wiped out my unit of TH/SS terminators + chaplain before it even got down to I4. I threw the best assault unit I could muster at him, and I still lost. Without doing a single wound. :( Not that I have enough experience with Abaddon to have an informed opinion, but when I've gotten wrecked by him in 100% of games he was in against me, it's hard to feel like he's anything but the most overpowered unit to grace a tabletop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Valerius Abbadon isn't a bad deathstar unit but compared to the support units most other dex's have as an escort it's just bad. Even then, Abbadon isn't as great as some of the character's the SM chapters have, eldar/dark eldar, nids.....do I need to go on? :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Wait, so other armies will just wreck me WORSE? I either suck at this game, or GW hates me. :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjenz Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Well, not everyone. I sure would like to get ahold of the secret, because last time I tangled with Abaddon, he (and a chaos lord, and some terminators) wiped out my unit of TH/SS terminators + chaplain before it even got down to I4. I threw the best assault unit I could muster at him, and I still lost. Without doing a single wound. :lol: Not that I have enough experience with Abaddon to have an informed opinion, but when I've gotten wrecked by him in 100% of games he was in against me, it's hard to feel like he's anything but the most overpowered unit to grace a tabletop. One of the game's ultimate cc models, no doubt. So uhm, don't be in CC with him. Now figure out how many different ways you can get a foot slogger typically delivered in AV14 to not be in cc range for a good chunk of the game. Don't SM have every cool toy in the book for that very thing? [roleplay] Then again, since slaves to the false emperor cannot think for themselves, I can see how the mere sight of the Warmaster would cause your forces to crumble like the mewling wretches they are. [/roleplay] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 last time I tangled with Abaddon, he (and a chaos lord, and some terminators) wiped out my unit of TH/SS terminators + chaplain before it even got down to I4. so 800pts creamed your 300+ . wonderful . you would have liked the 300 to kill the 800 one on one ? put a lysnader and/or calgar in to a termi unit get mulit wound with eternal warrior , ss and then check how long a chaos death star survives that . on the fun part if a chaos player takes aby and termis and a lord this means they have a 3 termi unit . An sm player has a LR that will fit more [power armor calgar +lys +5 termis] , get POTMS and frags on assault . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjenz Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Why put a ton of points into assaulting Abaddon though? Surround/block then put fire on LR, pop it. Then let him assault whatever roadblock unit you parked around the LR. Then let him stomp face. OK great, now the ultimate cc'er is standing in the open, all 275 points of him, saying "shoot me, please!" Oblige his request, and shoot him...a lot. Any list should be able to pop AV14, so if you can pop AV14 reliably, popping abaddon standing in the open shouldn't be too tough I wouldn't think. Some forces might have really difficult death star units to deal with. CSM do not. Our death star has a few hundred exhaust ports, and all of them are a few hundred meters wide, all with big signs over them saying "shoot your proton torpedo here!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 last time I tangled with Abaddon, he (and a chaos lord, and some terminators) wiped out my unit of TH/SS terminators + chaplain before it even got down to I4. so 800pts creamed your 300+ . wonderful . you would have liked the 300 to kill the 800 one on one ? put a lysnader and/or calgar in to a termi unit get mulit wound with eternal warrior , ss and then check how long a chaos death star survives that . on the fun part if a chaos player takes aby and termis and a lord this means they have a 3 termi unit . An sm player has a LR that will fit more [power armor calgar +lys +5 termis] , get POTMS and frags on assault . Jeske, that would have done precisely jack. My unit died off before I4, let alone I1, which means adding a badass unit which strikes at I1 wouldn't have helped at all. Killing AV14 is well and good, but I can't kill it before it gets up in my grill and drops its cargo off, or haven't been able to thus far. Since I can't reliably handle that, I need a way to deal with him in the event he gets to my doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 last time I tangled with Abaddon, he (and a chaos lord, and some terminators) wiped out my unit of TH/SS terminators + chaplain before it even got down to I4. so 800pts creamed your 300+ . wonderful . you would have liked the 300 to kill the 800 one on one ? put a lysnader and/or calgar in to a termi unit get mulit wound with eternal warrior , ss and then check how long a chaos death star survives that . on the fun part if a chaos player takes aby and termis and a lord this means they have a 3 termi unit . An sm player has a LR that will fit more [power armor calgar +lys +5 termis] , get POTMS and frags on assault . Jeske, that would have done precisely jack. My unit died off before I4, let alone I1, which means adding a badass unit which strikes at I1 wouldn't have helped at all. Killing AV14 is well and good, but I can't kill it before it gets up in my grill and drops its cargo off, or haven't been able to thus far. Since I can't reliably handle that, I need a way to deal with him in the event he gets to my doorstep. Umm, so you keep telling him that Abby and company will wipe off 3 such units before I5 ??? :D LOL. Beside, abby is very unreliable, he can botch his all attack, he have 1 per 6 chance to do so actually. Same for Lord with DW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjenz Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Killing AV14 is well and good, but I can't kill it before it gets up in my grill and drops its cargo off, or haven't been able to thus far. Since I can't reliably handle that, I need a way to deal with him in the event he gets to my doorstep. What are you running that you cannot reliably (60%) pop AV14 with concentrated fire? And by concentrated, I mean, if Abby is in his happy transport, it is ~700 points coming to stomp face. So with 700 equivalent points, you can field no TL (or even single) lascannons and/or no cheap/fast meltas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 I feel like we might have gotten sidetracked on whether or not Big A is worth it. Thinking again on my original point, can we trust a well balanced list to take care of the death star units or do we need to build in an appropriate counter for them? For some reason I keep thinking of this in terms of naval units (no idea why), can a fleet of Cruisers and Destroyers take out a Battleship or do you need another Battleship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 What are you running that you cannot reliably (60%) pop AV14 with concentrated fire? And by concentrated, I mean, if Abby is in his happy transport, it is ~700 points coming to stomp face. So with 700 equivalent points, you can field no TL (or even single) lascannons and/or no cheap/fast meltas? or 2-4 MM attack bikes that cost half the points . Thinking again on my original point, can we trust a well balanced list to take care of the death star units or do we need to build in an appropriate counter for them? well we have oblits we can try a mulit charge 2xDP+squad or combination of it , but to be honest one should never go hth against a death start build . unless we play 2500 or something like that [but then we are screwed anyway as chaos scales bad above 1,850-2k pts]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I feel like we might have gotten sidetracked on whether or not Big A is worth it. Thinking again on my original point, can we trust a well balanced list to take care of the death star units or do we need to build in an appropriate counter for them? For some reason I keep thinking of this in terms of naval units (no idea why), can a fleet of Cruisers and Destroyers take out a Battleship or do you need another Battleship I think you need the battleship, or at least a one hit wonder submarine. A fleet of cruisers and destroyers (to continue your nautical theme) can take out a battleship...the problem is that you need to get them through the picket lines pretty much intact (which is difficult). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 I think you need the battleship, or at least a one hit wonder submarine. And since Chaos lacks a good cost effective battleship, this means we need to rely on our submarines (Termicide) as a counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Would you prefer Plasma - cide or 5 outflanking chosen (Plasma + Rhino) ? Yes the cost is different, but one brings more firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjenz Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 or 2-4 MM attack bikes that cost half the points . Yep. 4 meltas on bikes costs 238 points. I think that gives a 61% chance to pop AV14. I say no, CSM don't need a "my death star can beat up your death star" hard counter. Cheap harassment, roadblocking, and then simple avoidance will negate much of any death star's purpose, at least for a few turns, during which the rest of your balanced army goes up against an easier opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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