Does anyone use shooty terminators anymore?

[snake_x]

Has anyone found a reason to use a stormbolter Termie squad? Is it worth taking any stormbolters when you could get termies with 3++ save instead? Are they even useful versus hordes?

[Mysticaria]

Every game.. 470 points for 10x Termies with 2x Cyclone Missile launchers and 2x Chainfist

 

1- Cyclone missile launchers

 

2- Chainfists

 

3- Active all game... They can reach out and touch you from turn one

 

4- Makes games more interesting... Fills a variety of roles, so it can beat different units in shooting or in close combat. In every matchup they are either going to want to stay at range (i.e. against uber close combat units) or get into assault (against uber shooty units) so you never have to play the same game over and over again.

 

5- People underestimate them... lots of people are used to seeing T-hammers in a Land Raider, but not many people know what to do when a unit of 10 terminators lines up across from them. They aren't scoring, so do I ignore them? They have missile launchers though, so do I shoot them? Do I assault them? It can trick a lot of people up that haven't played against them before.

 

6- deployment options... combat squads and deep striking are great, but they go well with libby as well. null zone can help balance out the T-hammers you may be facing, and gate can really help get some nice krak missile shots.

 

-Myst

[Gaz1858]

Against a fast army a unit of assault termies can be ignored once out their transport by moving away from them. Fast armies will generally just ignore them!

 

SHooty Termies are the best IMO. CML and CFs as stated above

[raganrkob]

Yup, I use them too, for the same reasons. They add a good amount of shots and are still quite survivable. Against enemies without power weapons they are almost as efective as their thunder hammer brothers in close combat.

 

I usually don't deep strike them, the missiles have a lot of range so they can start firing from turn 1 :D

[captain sox]

I prefer to use the 'Tactical' Terminators. Cyclone Launcher and Chainfist are gold.

 

Remeber, these guys are Relentless. They can move, fire heavies and assault.

 

Also, your Cyclone Missile Termie can fire both weapons (Storm Bolter and CML).

 

They are great/

[greatcrusade08]

Tactical termies with CML are pure gold.. ten storm bolter shots and 2 missiles are not to be sniffed at and only for around 230 points

[KhorneHunter57x]

Always. In my 2,000 point list, I use 3 five-Terminator squads with Heavy Weapon (2 squads with Assault Cannon, 1 with Cyclone) and 2 Chainfists per squad, and I almost always Deep Strike them.

 

The weapons loadout is effective against all targets (storm bolter for infantry and power fist for vehicles/elite troops/monsters), and the heavy weapon can be used to crack open a vehicle allowing you to assault its contents.

 

Unlike Assault Terminators, regular Terminators do not have to be in close to deal damage. In the last game I played with mine, one squad was able to shoot a small squad of Dire Avengers off of an objective from ~20" away, allowing me to win. If they had been Assault Terminators, then the game would have been a draw. Also, as they do not have to be in close to deal damage, if you need to you can walk backwards while still dealing damage to the enemy.

 

Unlike Assault Terminators, regular Terminators have access to the Chainfist. Although Thunder Hammers are good against most vehicles (on rear armor 10), they are not too effective against Land Raiders. Chainfists, on the other hand, slice right through AV 14.

 

I think that Deep Striking is more useful with regular Terminators, as they can still shoot on the turn they land. Also, as they can deal more damage from a distance, you are less likely to need to Deep Strike dangerously close to your opponent, and you can still do something if your Deep Strike scatters in the wrong direction.

[spartan249]

They've got their uses, I suppose. I don't think it's a very efficient use of points to get them just for bolter shots though. Their main strength is their lack of any specific focus, which makes them decent at doing whatever you need them to do.

 

I think they're best taken when you are preparing for anything, and require your terminators to fill multiple roles. Otherwise, Assault Terminators bring a more concrete asset to the table, given that they can go toe to toe with just about any target and have a decent chance of pulling through.

[snake_x]

A few of you have cited CFs as key to such squads. Can I ask why? I've always seen CFs as lackluster. You have to catch a vehicle with infantry to make it work, which seems like a next to impossible task.

[DerekLee688]

You only need two and never know when imobilized vehicle(s), CC Dreads Mortis/Ironclad/Chaos, Defilers, parking lot syndrome, or Redeemers may come a knocking.

 

Of course meta being the random thing that it is, you already have a pretty good guess that these will show up or not.

[TyrionTheImp]

Tactical terminators don't have enough survivability or offensive ability to really be worth their points. Assault terminators are a rock, that's their job and no other unit in C:SM can do it as well.

 

I feel if you're taking tactical terminators a tactical squad would be a better choice overall. Storm bolters are just longer ranged mobile bolters, and powerfists can be devastating, they become lackluster when the whole squad is hitting at I1 except for the Sarge. Sure you can put CML's on them, that gives you some long range potency against vehicles and some krak missiles, but missile launchers in the codex aren't hard to come by.

 

Now, if they could be made scoring, then tactical terminators would have a much bigger use (a la Deathwing Terminators), but as it stands, their abilities can be found elsewhere in the codex usually for a better price, unlike the Hammernators which are the premiere rock unit in the codex.

[snake_x]

Now, if they could be made scoring, then tactical terminators would have a much bigger use (a la Deathwing Terminators), but as it stands, their abilities can be found elsewhere in the codex usually for a better price, unlike the Hammernators which are the premiere rock unit in the codex.

 

Why would scoring tactical termies be more worth the buck?

[TyrionTheImp]

They make great objective campers. 2+ Armor makes them sturdier against assaults than Scouts and aren't as vulnerable to say Heavy Flamers, and sitting in cover with a 4+ makes them much harder to kill than out in the open with long range weapons. Plus, with a CML they add to your firebase, and if whatever assaults you doesn't have grenades you're both hitting at I1 making assault slightly more difficult for your opponent.

[Corby]

In tournament play , with the recent Faq changes , Black templars do a very strong shooty terminators squad.

The setup is the pretty much the following:

5 Sword Brethern terminators. 2 Cyclone missle launchers , Tank hunters veteran skill.

 

This unit is very nasty. Four S9 shots a turn ruins mech. Take two squads of them and well.... ;)

[Frogstar168]

I'll chime in for the 10 x Terminators with CML. I've had nothing but success with them vs Dark Eldar. 4 krak missiles can reliably knonk down a Raider and 4 frag missiles plus 10 storm bolters just annihilate those stranded Wyches and Warriors.

 

As a follow-on question, what units really go well with the big Terminator squad? Heavy vehicles? Light vehicles? Lots of infantry?

[Mysticaria]

Tactical terminators don't have enough survivability or offensive ability to really be worth their points. Assault terminators are a rock, that's their job and no other unit in C:SM can do it as well.

 

I feel if you're taking tactical terminators a tactical squad would be a better choice overall. Storm bolters are just longer ranged mobile bolters, and powerfists can be devastating, they become lackluster when the whole squad is hitting at I1 except for the Sarge. Sure you can put CML's on them, that gives you some long range potency against vehicles and some krak missiles, but missile launchers in the codex aren't hard to come by.

 

Now, if they could be made scoring, then tactical terminators would have a much bigger use (a la Deathwing Terminators), but as it stands, their abilities can be found elsewhere in the codex usually for a better price, unlike the Hammernators which are the premiere rock unit in the codex.

This is a reoccuring argument. I'm not sure why people think assault terminators are good when they strike at I1 with S8 power weapons, but tactical terminators are bad when they do the exact same thing. Truth is, against most shooting and close combat attacks... both units of terminators are going to be getting a 2+ save. The only time the 3++ versus 5++ comes into play is if you are facing one of the top close combat units in the game. People who dislike tactical terminators will say "see, they can't beat that unit so they suck" while proponents of tactical terminators will say "it's not one unit versus one unit... if I'm placing my very flexible tactical terminators in position to play into my weakness and into my enemies strength I deserve to lose". Thing is, tactical terminators have the tools to be effecvtive in every matchup. Yes, if you put them into a position where you are exposing their weaknesses, without taking advantage of their strengths, you probably are not doing it right.

 

I'm curious, what abilities do tactical terminators have that can be found elswhere in the codex for cheaper? There is no other unit that can put out as much shooting as tactical terminators and that can still be a scary thing to assault. Sternguard can arguably outshoot them (minus the missiles) but are nearly as expensive, don't have 2+ save, and aren't that scary to assault. Assault termiators are nearly as expensive (5-10 points difference when you include the almost mandatory land raider) and can't stop light transports or fast units at all. Yeah, they are better at taking down elite close combat units in close combat, but that's not what tactical terminators do. Devestators can get the missiles in there, but aren't particularly a good value and don't control space like terminators. Dreads are ok, but can't match them in resiliency and close combat potential. When you stop and really think about what a squad of tactical terminators can really do during a game, there really is no other unit that can do exactly what they do.

 

As for what to accompany tactical terminators... I like to play into their strengths and to limit their weaknesses. Strengths are resiliency, missile launchers, and they hold ground well. Weaknesses are units with AP2 shooting, and elite close combat units. Good pairs for tactical termies are other things that get missiles at a good price and can operate at range, like typhoon speeders. I like taking a pair of these with my termies since that's a nice core of 8 missile shots per turn. I also like to use vindicators with tactical termies since it plays into their strength and weakness. One, usually anything that can shoot at AV13 is going to be AP2 at least, so in a way it is target saturation for those weapon shots, and since the termies are controlling space they can prevent enemies from getting too close to assault or side-melt the vindicators, and finally the vindicators are pretty scary to most assault specialists (obviously not MCs, but with the exception of C'Tan those aren't the biggest problem for termies anyway). And... for all those T-hammer termies out there, I like to take a little null-zone action. Making them re-roll their 3++ when they get hit by a vindishell or when they get into combat with tactical terminators just makes my 5++ not look so terrible. And as always, fast melta goes a long way towards making sure that things in landraiders aren't going to be at full strength when they are at the same place as your tactical terminators. If you can get whatever that elite combat unit is out on the table for a couple turns before you engage, you might find that tactical terminators aren't that terrible in close combat after all.

 

-Myst

[TyrionTheImp]

Hammernators are more survivable, with their 3++, thus a rock unit, I never said they hit any harder. And it's not that Tactical termies can't shoot and be scary in assault, it's just that they can't do ENOUGH shooting, and they really aren't terribly effective against anything that carries even one power weapon as a 5++ isn't going to stop much.

 

It's basically like they can do a lot of things, but can't do any of them well enough to really warrant taking them, at least not in my opinion, but if you can make them work more power to you.

[Mysticaria]

Hammernators are more survivable, with their 3++, thus a rock unit, I never said they hit any harder. And it's not that Tactical termies can't shoot and be scary in assault, it's just that they can't do ENOUGH shooting, and they really aren't terribly effective against anything that carries even one power weapon as a 5++ isn't going to stop much.

 

It's basically like they can do a lot of things, but can't do any of them well enough to really warrant taking them, at least not in my opinion, but if you can make them work more power to you.

Wow. I think this is an overestimation of the difference between 3++ and 5++. Saying that they "really aren't effective against anything that carries even one power weapon" is significantly overstating the case I think. One power weapon, even with 4 attacks on the charge, is only going to wound an average of once, and after invul save will leave with about .67 wounds (this doesn't even take into acount wound allocation options) while the hammernators are taking .33 wounds. I'm not seing how taking .34 extra wounds makes them ineffective, especially when there was probably 5 more guys in the unit to start with and since that means they would have something on the order of 8-12 more attacks then the hammerators did. I'd argue that in this case the tactical termies actually win by more than the hammernators would.

 

Remember, a 5++ stops half as much as the 3++ does... and that only comes into play when you are fighting one of a handful of units. Most times, the 2+ comes into play. When you factor in the exta bodies that you got because you didn't need to take the landraider, and the options for wound allocation from sarge, chainfist, missiles, etc... and you can see that are quite resilient. It's frustrating to hear that hammernators are resilient and tactical terminators are paper thin, because it's simply not true (yes, I know that's not what Tyrion said, it's just what's been said/implied in the past by others on this topic).

 

What's your rock?

 

option 1: 5 guys with 2+/3++ with a Landraider

option 2: 10 guys with 2+/5++

option 3: 10 guys with 2+/3++ (but nobody takes this do they?.. maybe with a libby to gate, that might be a real rock!)

 

-Myst

[spartan249]

Option 4: 10 TH/SS terminators with Shrike. Not exactly powerful, but funny when it works.

[KhorneHunter57x]

And you can stick regular Terminators in cover and have them shoot out, something that can't really be done with Assault Terminators. There, you have solved two problems:

With a Techmarine and the right cover, you can get a 3+ Cover. Oh hey wait, that is just as good as a 3++ save against shooting!

And as they are in cover, units charging them without Grenades are I1, striking at the same time as the power fists.

[Mysticaria]

Definately.. forgot to mention that. Most times a 4+ isn't hard to find. I tend to take rhinos, vindicators, and such to help out with cover when there aren't any ruins and there are AP weapons on the other side. Against shooting you are really only giving up 4++ to 3++ to get those storm bolters and missiles. The big difference really comes in when you start talking about uber close combat units that are going to be doing tons of power weapon wounds. In those cases, tactical termies need to play differently and can't act like the bully in the room.

 

-Myst

[MagicMan]

A few of you have cited CFs as key to such squads. Can I ask why? I've always seen CFs as lackluster. You have to catch a vehicle with infantry to make it work, which seems like a next to impossible task.

 

 

Its one of those condom conundrums.

 

 

Id rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one.

 

 

Only 5 points too.

[Corby]

A few of you have cited CFs as key to such squads. Can I ask why? I've always seen CFs as lackluster. You have to catch a vehicle with infantry to make it work, which seems like a next to impossible task.

 

 

Its one of those condom conundrums.

 

 

Id rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one.

 

 

Only 5 points too.

 

It allows the terminators to deal with Av 13 walkers easily , as hiting on fours and glancing on fives isn't exactly desireable.

Its also to discourage tanking shocking the terminators , as most opponents will be quite happy to tank shock them with an empty rhino late game in the hope they fall back , a chain fist means you can death or glory and reliable kill something.

[TyrionTheImp]

I'm not saying they're paper thin, my friend struggles with my Deathwing all the time and they've only recently started carrying Storm Shields, but a 5++ Really does not protect against much, and yes you can get 4+ cover quite easy these days, but the same can be said of any unit, in which case getting your bodies is going to be cheaper most of the time.

 

You can bolster your ruins with a techmarine and pay for your tactical terminators, or you can pay for devastators and get more heavy weapons out of it and more bodies for a cheaper price, why even bother with the terminators then? You're getting 3+ Cover, suddenly those marines are pretty much just as resilient as Terminators, but with more bodies. As for assaulting terminators in cover without grenades? I like to assume my opponents aren't terribly stupid, that just seems silly.

 

Didn't someone write a fantastic article about how Tactical Terminators aren't worth it because you can get more bodies and more shots for half the price with tactical marines?

[DarkGuard]

I'm not saying they're paper thin, my friend struggles with my Deathwing all the time and they've only recently started carrying Storm Shields, but a 5++ Really does not protect against much, and yes you can get 4+ cover quite easy these days, but the same can be said of any unit, in which case getting your bodies is going to be cheaper most of the time.

 

You can bolster your ruins with a techmarine and pay for your tactical terminators, or you can pay for devastators and get more heavy weapons out of it and more bodies for a cheaper price, why even bother with the terminators then? You're getting 3+ Cover, suddenly those marines are pretty much just as resilient as Terminators, but with more bodies. As for assaulting terminators in cover without grenades? I like to assume my opponents aren't terribly stupid, that just seems silly.

 

Didn't someone write a fantastic article about how Tactical Terminators aren't worth it because you can get more bodies and more shots for half the price with tactical marines?

 

But you don't get the durability or inherent mobility with heavy weapons. Neither do you get the close combat ability or enhanced deployment options unless you pay for them. I don't know about you but in my eyes a 2+/5++ is much better than a 3+ save. Furthermore, Tactical Marines need to be in rapid fire range to get all those shots, Terminators don't, so they can operate to full effect from longer distances. And when they're at short range those power fists help them out in combat. Finally, my Tactical squads can't move and fire with missile launchers, my Terminators can though.

 

Different units for different things. You don't build an army around a single Tactical squads, maybe two though. However, you do build an army around a unit of 10 Terminators with cyclones, and such an army has a rock hard and destructive core. I can deal with Assault Terminators by blowing up their ride and watching them slowly walk across the board, ignoring them until I feel like pouring fire into them. I can't ignore a 10 man Terminator squad with 2 cyclones, no matter where they are.