Corby Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I'm not saying they're paper thin, my friend struggles with my Deathwing all the time and they've only recently started carrying Storm Shields, but a 5++ Really does not protect against much, and yes you can get 4+ cover quite easy these days, but the same can be said of any unit, in which case getting your bodies is going to be cheaper most of the time. You can bolster your ruins with a techmarine and pay for your tactical terminators, or you can pay for devastators and get more heavy weapons out of it and more bodies for a cheaper price, why even bother with the terminators then? You're getting 3+ Cover, suddenly those marines are pretty much just as resilient as Terminators, but with more bodies. As for assaulting terminators in cover without grenades? I like to assume my opponents aren't terribly stupid, that just seems silly. Didn't someone write a fantastic article about how Tactical Terminators aren't worth it because you can get more bodies and more shots for half the price with tactical marines? Black Templar shooty terminators are the only shooty terminators worth taking at the moment as they put out a very strong amount of firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I'm not saying they're paper thin, my friend struggles with my Deathwing all the time and they've only recently started carrying Storm Shields, but a 5++ Really does not protect against much, and yes you can get 4+ cover quite easy these days, but the same can be said of any unit, in which case getting your bodies is going to be cheaper most of the time. You can bolster your ruins with a techmarine and pay for your tactical terminators, or you can pay for devastators and get more heavy weapons out of it and more bodies for a cheaper price, why even bother with the terminators then? You're getting 3+ Cover, suddenly those marines are pretty much just as resilient as Terminators, but with more bodies. As for assaulting terminators in cover without grenades? I like to assume my opponents aren't terribly stupid, that just seems silly. Didn't someone write a fantastic article about how Tactical Terminators aren't worth it because you can get more bodies and more shots for half the price with tactical marines? But you don't get the durability or inherent mobility with heavy weapons. Neither do you get the close combat ability or enhanced deployment options unless you pay for them. I don't know about you but in my eyes a 2+/5++ is much better than a 3+ save. Furthermore, Tactical Marines need to be in rapid fire range to get all those shots, Terminators don't, so they can operate to full effect from longer distances. And when they're at short range those power fists help them out in combat. Finally, my Tactical squads can't move and fire with missile launchers, my Terminators can though. Different units for different things. You don't build an army around a single Tactical squads, maybe two though. However, you do build an army around a unit of 10 Terminators with cyclones, and such an army has a rock hard and destructive core. I can deal with Assault Terminators by blowing up their ride and watching them slowly walk across the board, ignoring them until I feel like pouring fire into them. I can't ignore a 10 man Terminator squad with 2 cyclones, no matter where they are. Amen brother. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Amen brother. -Myst It's all your fault Myst, I used to be in the whole "Tactical Terminators are not worth it especially when compared to Assault Terminators" camp until your words of wisdom blew my mind and made me think about it differently. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticaria Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Amen brother. -Myst It's all your fault Myst, I used to be in the whole "Tactical Terminators are not worth it especially when compared to Assault Terminators" camp until your words of wisdom blew my mind and made me think about it differently. :D That's funny. I used to think they sucked plenty when I was using 5 of them with assault canon... and then I read an article on here about using uber units, might have been Captain Idaho? but i can't find it now... Anyway, it inspired me to try them in a unit of 10 and I discovered they were plenty awesome that way. Funny thing is, everything people complain about for tactical terminators I pretty much agree with when they are in units of 5. They don't seem to be very shooty, they don't seem very resilient, and they are plenty expensive. If even one guy dies they just don't have the number of swings to win any combats. However, when they go up to 10 guys all of a sudden they are really shooty, really resilient, and really assaulty, and they can lose a bunch of guys before they start losing effectiveness. Shame we can't take 2 cyclones with less than 10 guys though... that would be nice. -Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstalker Grim Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 This topic comes up around once a month, maybe there should be a terminator archive? We've weighed them up in different ways a thousand times over! I've always been in the tactical terminator camp! These guys are supposed to be the pinnacle of a marine unit, and they do match up to that quite well, with decent armour, reasonable shooting and efficient melee. Sure there are better units that outdo them in each of their own fields, but they mingle it well together. Now their downfall is their price, 5 of them is 200 points, which is darn pricey and, as with most small units, work out to be fairly fragile. A larger group of say 10 is a different story and will probably destroy a great deal of enemies, though not all by any means! I can't see why assault terminators are deemed to be 'better' than tactical terminators, they are 2 pretty different units with 2 pretty different roles! Compare assault terminators to other assault oriented units such as assault squads and vaguard, CC command squads, Honour Guard, because they're the competition! A tactical termy squad is there as a flexible squad, capable of several roles, of course it'll lose out in a direct melee comparison, but it'll win hands down in a ranged one against assault terminators won't it? Compare tactical terminators to other multi-role models! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I've always been a Tac Termie type of guy, and I'm going to interject with a tale from one of my games this weekend. I was playing against a Dark Angel army that mixed Ravenwing and Deathwing about 50/50 at 2000 points, and he had a couple of squads of TH/SS Termies each with a single CML-equipped Tac Termie. My five-man Tac Termie squad with an assault cannon and a harness-equipped MOTF with power weapon & pistol shot one of the squads, killing three out of five. they charged the other two and killed them both. They then were shot at by Sammael and a biker Libby, losing no one thanks to their invulnerable saves, and then were charged by such. Two of my Termies survived the whole thing, killed Sammael in two rounds of combat, and squished the Libby right off the bat. All told, I think it was a fairly successful performance by a unit that is, according to some, useless and sub-par. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Of course, that was a one time occurrence and frankly charging two IC's at a squad filled with powerfists is DUMB. Also sounds extremely lucky and such things can be pulled off with any number of squads. Heck, I had my 5 man Deathwing squad survive literally 1000 points of Eldar Fire power, then have my squad with apothecary in it get practically killed by a single bladestorming dire avenger squad. Luck is a part of the game and sometimes sub-par units will surprise you. I would be more than willing to try out the 10 man squad with double CMLs at some point, my only problem is that adds up to about 460 points? (Don't have my codex at hand) At 2000 points that's almost a fourth of my army for 10 bodies, 4 ML shots, 20 Storm Bolter shots, which to me barely sounds devastating at range (for 460 points anyway), and sure there are enough of them that striking at I1 with powerfists isn't terrible, but they're footslogging meaning your opponent will decide (most likely) what units they can get into assault with. However, if I ever manage to make a list around such a thing I'll be sure to give it a try. On the flip side the GK Terminators I think are fantastic. Psycannons being able to unload 4 Str 7 AP 4 Rending shots, but then also be able to get S5 I6 attacks, or Strength 10 (with Hammerhand) I1 Thunder Hammer attacks in the same squad? Plus increasing that invuln save from 5++ to 4++ in CC isn't terrible considering it's free. These are truly flexible units, and cost no more than our terminators do, plus as an added bonus they're troops! Of course as with most things it comes to personal taste. The amount of things I can pack into 460 points (or whatever it is) appeals more to me than 10 tactical terminators, whether its more bodies (important in an elite type army), AV hulls, or firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminatorAM Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Im surprised no one has talked much about attached characters. With the exception of a libby gating them around i havent heard others. I always take Lysander with a group of either 5 or 10 tact termies. He adds rerolls tostorm bolters and is tough as nails so can soak up some of those powerweapon or plasma hits and thus really increases the squads survivability. Not to mention his close combat abilities. I see him taken 2 ways: either with assault termies or shooty termies. With assault you are taking the termies to help the character (just smaller versions of him as a body guard) but with a shooty squad one would take him to improve the squad. i like doing the 2nd option and thinking of him as an uber unit booster, i usually just have them shoot and soak up fire until the end game when they might get an assault in and while not being overpowering they are still deadly and provide a huge distraction until that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I sometimes use my squad of 5 terminators (CML, CF) and they do ok. My problem with them is that without the ATs I lack a solid close combat unit for when I really need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattison Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 10 assault termies (7TH/3LC) 5 shooties (2CML/1CF/tankhunters) 5 shooties (2CML/1CF/tankhunters) The elites section of my Heresy-era Imperial Fists (BT dex). Eight S9 missiles from two relentless squads with 2+ armour (plus preferably cover) and power/chain fists? Hell yeah. Expensive as a land raider? Yes, but won't be blown up by a lucky lascannon shot... Adding my 6 Typhoons to it it's quite impressing firepower already for a BT army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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