GK Codex and Space Wolves

[dublindawg]

Brothers (and cousins) thanks for your valued CC and input.

 

Having bought and read the codex I've come to the conclusion that the GK (no doubt thanks to Mr Ward) are now a bunch of...well, they're not the 'good guys' as we know and understand the Sons of Russ to be. However, in order to alleviate a little burden on my wallet and to play something different, I've modified my fluff as follows:

 

Here we go...Ver 1.2

 

Following the conclusion for the first War for Armegeddon, the Great Wolf and the Grey Knights held a secret council. It was decreed that a specialized force of Rune warriors would be created under the guidance of the Grey Knights and the most senior of Rune Priests.

 

What came about was a secret company of Space Wolves created solely for the purposes of combating Daemons and other perils of the warp. This company, guided by Rune Priests with the training of a handful of Grey Knights are the Rune Knights.

 

Oh - not sure who said it, but I really do not go much into spouting my fluff at the game table but you're all welcome to try and kick my in the junk any time you like (I always pass my counter attack roll) :D

 

Now this is something I can be more onboard with fluff wise. I'm still not keen on taking wargear of another army and using it with Space Wolves or any other army for that matter.

[hendrik]

Brothers (and cousins) thanks for your valued CC and input.

 

Having bought and read the codex I've come to the conclusion that the GK (no doubt thanks to Mr Ward) are now a bunch of...well, they're not the 'good guys' as we know and understand the Sons of Russ to be. However, in order to alleviate a little burden on my wallet and to play something different, I've modified my fluff as follows:

 

Here we go...Ver 1.2

 

Following the conclusion for the first War for Armegeddon, the Great Wolf and the Grey Knights held a secret council. It was decreed that a specialized force of Rune warriors would be created under the guidance of the Grey Knights and the most senior of Rune Priests.

 

What came about was a secret company of Space Wolves created solely for the purposes of combating Daemons and other perils of the warp. This company, guided by Rune Priests with the training of a handful of Grey Knights are the Rune Knights.

 

Oh - not sure who said it, but I really do not go much into spouting my fluff at the game table but you're all welcome to try and kick my in the junk any time you like (I always pass my counter attack roll) :D

 

Now this is something I can be more onboard with fluff wise. I'm still not keen on taking wargear of another army and using it with Space Wolves or any other army for that matter.

i don't see it work, why? well we SW only get all of our recruits from fenris alone and while it isn't mentioned we've got not enough recruits i'm 100% convinced we just don't have enough psychicly gifted recruits to form up such a formation. sure we have runepriests but nowhere can i find evidence of us having that many runepriest we could field an all psycher strike force. i just don't see it work fluffwise. think about it, the grey knights recruit from an organisation who already collects "all" the psychers on imperial worlds in the galaxy while we only have fenris to recruit from.

 

another point would be the extensive use of books the grey knights have, while we only tell our sagas instead of writing them down.

so you want a space wolf force that's dedicated to hunting demons? we've got plenty of options there:

1) the 13th company, they've been hunting demons even beforethere were grey knights

2) a lost company

3) sven bloodhowl's company; it's written in our dex how sven helps a radical inquisitor escape from the ordo malleus. one could write a sequence to this by making them (the radical inquisitor and sven's company) working closer together (but still no grey knights imo)

[Valerian]

It's a nice idea wolf brother! but I hate to tell you.. pg. 13 of their codex kinda puts a HUGE downer on the whole SW+GK relationship with the aftermath of the First Battle of Armageddon. Most of us already know the story, but after having a quick peek at their new codex, I was a little shocked at the GK involvement with the aftermath and the containment actions under their sword. It's just something a true SW wouldn't stand for, it doesn't sit easy with me, just as it doesn't with Logan Grimnar.

 

In all honesty the GK would get alone poorly with the Wolves. From reading Ward's fluff most, if not all their allies end up being dead or mindwiped after the battle battle. At times it seems like the GK spend as much time killing Guardsmen and civillians as they do daemons.

 

Actually, I'm going to stand up for Mat Ward in this instance, as that part isn't his fluff. It is really old fluff that Mr. Ward is trying to stay true to. From the very first information on the Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus from Slaves to Darkness, 1988:

 

Only the Grey Knights survive in the service of the Ordo. All other troops die when given over to them. The reason for non-survival among military units attached to the Ordo Malleus is simple. Any troops that an Inquisitor Ordinary has commanded have been exposed to Daemons. They are privy to one of the most closely-guarded Imperial secrets: that Daemons exist and Chaos is a terrible threat. Those that survive a battle or campaign are executed, with full honours, shortly afterwards. They are expendable, and entire Imperial regiments and corps have been despatched by the Ordo Malleus.

 

The most notable occasion was at the end of the Nexxas Exculpation (M40.561). An incursion by the Traitor Legionnaires of the Emperor's Children was opposed by a complete Imperial Army corps. Once the invasion had been beaten off the corps was destroyed by orbital bombardment from an Ordo warship. The Imperial records were altered to show that a renegade force of Eldar was responsible for the destruction of the unit.

 

The only general exception to this policy of secrecy-by-extermination are Adeptus Astartes units. Execution of a Marine is seen as wasteful. Marine units are mindscrubbed rather than killed - their memories destroyed rather than their bodies. Mindscrubbing removes any and all memories of the Ordo's true purpose, but requires its victims to be completely retrained. Mindscrubbed Marines cannot even feed themselves, let alone fight for the Imperium.

 

Of the Adeptus Astartes only the Grey Knights, the Ordo's 'Chamber Militant' are allowed to retain their memories. The centuries have proved that the Grey Knights can keep the secret of the Ordo's hidden war against Chaos as well as any Inquisitor.

 

So, it really isn't Mr. Ward to blame on this fluff; he is just trying to stay true to the background material as originally established. The problem is with all of the other authors over the years who disregarded the background material to make combat with the Daemonic as routine as a scuffle with some Ork warband. So, I don't have a problem with this part of the new Codex: Grey Knights (although I have some problems with other fluff in it). The Grey Knights aren't supposed to be "the good guys", they're just supposed to be the guys that keep mankind safe from Chaos, and preserve humanity from the Daemonic, which they do without fail.

 

Regards,

 

Grandmaster Valerian

[MaveriK]

Very old fluff indeed. The only reason why I disregarded it is... well far to many contradictions in my opinion. How do you explain the heresy to the normal population and the terrans who survived? "those arent daemons you saw storming the palace, those arent mutated space marines... Their... Their... Eldar on drugs! Yeah thats right." and Cadia, and the cadian gate. Over the years and different editions of the BRB we are shown imperial troops fighting daemon hordes and traitor marines, yet the Grey Knights can't be everywhere to clean up the mess. The universe is far to vast to have the secret of "daemons" contained...it's really the only real reason why I dismissed that old fluff. But I understand where your coming from and I agree to an extent. But Grey Knights can't have their cake and eat it too. They were formed during the second founding. The time before that, people knew about "daemons and such" so having an elite chapter doing what is told to contain and mindwipe seems pointless since a generation before their creation know better. It's a fools errand. How does one explain the eye of terror? How does one explain other wars that involve traitor marines/guard? Ohh it's okay, we're either going to be killed by knowing the truth or get our mindwiped. Sure knowledge is power... but it's not when that power is pretty much common knowledge.

[Valerian]

Very old fluff indeed. The only reason why I disregarded it is... well far to many contradictions in my opinion. How do you explain the heresy to the normal population and the terrans who survived? "those arent daemons you saw storming the palace, those arent mutated space marines... Their... Their... Eldar on drugs! Yeah thats right." and Cadia, and the cadian gate. Over the years and different editions of the BRB we are shown imperial troops fighting daemon hordes and traitor marines, yet the Grey Knights can't be everywhere to clean up the mess. The universe is far to vast to have the secret of "daemons" contained...it's really the only real reason why I dismissed that old fluff. But I understand where your coming from and I agree to an extent. But Grey Knights can't have their cake and eat it too. They were formed during the second founding. The time before that, people knew about "daemons and such" so having an elite chapter doing what is told to contain and mindwipe seems pointless since a generation before their creation know better. It's a fools errand. How does one explain the eye of terror? How does one explain other wars that involve traitor marines/guard? Ohh it's okay, we're either going to be killed by knowing the truth or get our mindwiped. Sure knowledge is power... but it's not when that power is pretty much common knowledge.

 

True, there are certainly inconsistencies, and some suspension of disbelief is required. It might have been best to just go with the newer trends in codex writing that the Daemonic is a known presence, which everyone is just used to dealing with. I, however, still kinda like the idea that most of humanity has no clue about the threat of, and existence of, the denizens of the Warp, and the Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus are going to try and keep it that way. Either way, whether you like it or not, my point is that Mat Ward didn't make that part up, he simply resurrected some of the really old-school background material (that I grew up with, and got me hooked on this game in the first place). Some call it "grimdark", but I like that the Grey Knights aren't "good guys". They don't get cats out of trees, or help old ladies cross the street. They banish Daemons, and kill Chaos worshipping scum, and Traitor Legionnaires. The future of mankind rests on them doing their job, which means only the mission matters. If the blood of millions of innocents has to get sacrificed to preserve billions, then so be it.

 

Note, of course, that this is not the attitude of our Space Wolves. We actually are, the good guys. We stand up for regular humans when other Astartes Chapters, and the Imperial bureaucracy would trample over them. This is okay, not every faction should have the same personality.

 

V

[Gree]

It's a nice idea wolf brother! but I hate to tell you.. pg. 13 of their codex kinda puts a HUGE downer on the whole SW+GK relationship with the aftermath of the First Battle of Armageddon. Most of us already know the story, but after having a quick peek at their new codex, I was a little shocked at the GK involvement with the aftermath and the containment actions under their sword. It's just something a true SW wouldn't stand for, it doesn't sit easy with me, just as it doesn't with Logan Grimnar.

 

In all honesty the GK would get alone poorly with the Wolves. From reading Ward's fluff most, if not all their allies end up being dead or mindwiped after the battle battle. At times it seems like the GK spend as much time killing Guardsmen and civillians as they do daemons.

 

Actually, I'm going to stand up for Mat Ward in this instance, as that part isn't his fluff. It is really old fluff that Mr. Ward is trying to stay true to. From the very first information on the Grey Knights and Ordo Malleus from Slaves to Darkness, 1988:

 

Only the Grey Knights survive in the service of the Ordo. All other troops die when given over to them. The reason for non-survival among military units attached to the Ordo Malleus is simple. Any troops that an Inquisitor Ordinary has commanded have been exposed to Daemons. They are privy to one of the most closely-guarded Imperial secrets: that Daemons exist and Chaos is a terrible threat. Those that survive a battle or campaign are executed, with full honours, shortly afterwards. They are expendable, and entire Imperial regiments and corps have been despatched by the Ordo Malleus.

 

The most notable occasion was at the end of the Nexxas Exculpation (M40.561). An incursion by the Traitor Legionnaires of the Emperor's Children was opposed by a complete Imperial Army corps. Once the invasion had been beaten off the corps was destroyed by orbital bombardment from an Ordo warship. The Imperial records were altered to show that a renegade force of Eldar was responsible for the destruction of the unit.

 

The only general exception to this policy of secrecy-by-extermination are Adeptus Astartes units. Execution of a Marine is seen as wasteful. Marine units are mindscrubbed rather than killed - their memories destroyed rather than their bodies. Mindscrubbing removes any and all memories of the Ordo's true purpose, but requires its victims to be completely retrained. Mindscrubbed Marines cannot even feed themselves, let alone fight for the Imperium.

 

Of the Adeptus Astartes only the Grey Knights, the Ordo's 'Chamber Militant' are allowed to retain their memories. The centuries have proved that the Grey Knights can keep the secret of the Ordo's hidden war against Chaos as well as any Inquisitor.

 

So, it really isn't Mr. Ward to blame on this fluff; he is just trying to stay true to the background material as originally established. The problem is with all of the other authors over the years who disregarded the background material to make combat with the Daemonic as routine as a scuffle with some Ork warband. So, I don't have a problem with this part of the new Codex: Grey Knights (although I have some problems with other fluff in it). The Grey Knights aren't supposed to be "the good guys", they're just supposed to be the guys that keep mankind safe from Chaos, and preserve humanity from the Daemonic, which they do without fail.

 

Regards,

 

Grandmaster Valerian

 

I am fully aware of said fluff. However it's been disregarded for a long time and with good reason. I like having my Guard regiment fight daemons aand have it as part of their fluff. Similarly you will never see my Praetors of Orpheus submitting to mindwipe.

 

You cant' tell me that they execute the entire Cadian system after every Black Crusade or chaos raid by the Traitor Legions?

 

In fact Ward himself has written other Marines taking on daemons without mindwipes. The White Scars even hunted a Daemon Prince halfway across the galaxy in one of Ward's earlier codices. The entire Ultramarines chapter operated on a the daemon-haunted forgeworld of Thrax. I could go on and on by Ward's own fluff.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I agree, that might cause a problem. If they were to execute anyone who saw a daemon, much of the defense forces many critical places would be severely diminished. Also, using the above mind-wipe description, it would mean that at any one time, many chapters would lack a sizable portion of their chapter, especially as marines would need to be assigned to retrain them. I just don't see it.

 

EDIT: Removed Ward-Bashing and stated views in a more polite manner.

[Lord Ragnarok]

No Ward bashing here. There's plenty of it saved on the board.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You cant' tell me that they execute the entire Cadian system after every Black Crusade or chaos raid by the Traitor Legions?

In fact Ward himself has written other Marines taking on daemons without mindwipes. The White Scars even hunted a Daemon Prince halfway across the galaxy in one of Ward's earlier codices. The entire Ultramarines chapter operated on a the daemon-haunted forgeworld of Thrax. I could go on and on by Ward's own fluff.

 

Excellent point.

If I were a strategist for Chaos, I'd just have Daemons popping up here and there. "Oh dear. you killed 100 Daemons and the cultists required to bridge reality for them to arrive. Or however many Chaos Marines. Now those million guardsmen will get killed by the GK."

 

It just doesn't work. Perhaps a cool idea, but once you start taking into account the reach of Chaos, it falls apart.

 

It makes suspension of belief too hard.

 

That Daemons never die means Chaos could just erode humanity unto death, with GK doing most of the killing.

[Emperor's Scourge]

After reading the new GK Codex I've decided to never look at the front half of that book again. It is...not written to my tastes. *Eyes Inquisitor*

 

I had to put the book down for a while after reading that the GK have pet Greater Daemons watching them eat on Titan...a stone's throw away from the Golden Throne. Stalwart defenders indeed.

 

After shaking it off and telling myself that it can't get any worse, it did.

 

"Oh you've seen a Nurgling picking flowers in your back yard did you? EXTERMINATUS UPON THIS CURSED ROCK!!!!" *Goes back to shining his daemon possessed sword and reminiscing about the 200 years he's spent in the Warp with the Daemon Prince that lives next door on Titan*

[maverik_girl]

Brothers (and cousins) thanks for your valued CC and input.

 

Having bought and read the codex I've come to the conclusion that the GK (no doubt thanks to Mr Ward) are now a bunch of...well, they're not the 'good guys' as we know and understand the Sons of Russ to be. However, in order to alleviate a little burden on my wallet and to play something different, I've modified my fluff as follows:

 

Here we go...Ver 1.2

 

Following the conclusion for the first War for Armegeddon, the Great Wolf and the Grey Knights held a secret council. It was decreed that a specialized force of Rune warriors would be created under the guidance of the Grey Knights and the most senior of Rune Priests.

 

What came about was a secret company of Space Wolves created solely for the purposes of combating Daemons and other perils of the warp. This company, guided by Rune Priests with the training of a handful of Grey Knights are the Rune Knights.

 

Oh - not sure who said it, but I really do not go much into spouting my fluff at the game table but you're all welcome to try and kick my in the junk any time you like (I always pass my counter attack roll) :P

 

haven't played any Apoc games, but can you make an all Rune Priest army? or Apoc sheet? is that legal or even do-able?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

in Apoc, everything and anything is do-able. there is no "firm" rules in Apoc when it comes to army selection.

 

some people enjoy such gaming freedom, others create some rules for the game to create a more "fun" atmosphere.

 

WLK

[Forté]

Grey Knights have always been the puppets of the Inquisition and do their dirty work. Destroying a whole planet to eradicate a daemon outbreak and all taint of it is nothing to an inquisitor and the Grey Knights just follow blindly in the belief that their actions are for the good of the Imperium.

 

Space Wolves on the other hand will make up their own mind, for themselves. Tell the Inquisitor where he can go and stick his exterminatus and go tear the throat from the enemy and protect the bystanders as much as possible.

 

The two fluffs couldn't combine. It's like West Ham and Millwall supporters. There's no way they could be put together without a fight breaking out.

[Darkseer]

Anyone who tries to make their Space Wolves 'count as' another army is NOT a true Space Wolves player.

 

I'm not normally a fan boi like this, but for once I'm deadly serious.

It's not what the Space Wolves are about. More importantly, it's not what real Space Wolves players are about.

 

Of all the kinds of players I've met over the years, for some reason Space Wolves players are always the most passionate about their armies, while being incredibly amicable.

In fact, I've never (ever) met a Space Wolves player I didn't like!

 

So the question you've got to ask yourself is....

are you a true Space Wolves player?

 

If not, then I'd recommend you go and build an All-In-One Marine army to appease your roaming ways so you can try to win games by having the newest army, instead of mastering one of the Best armies.

 

Cheers

Adam

[Tsuro]

Anyone who tries to make their Space Wolves 'count as' another army is NOT a true Space Wolves player.

 

 

Please come down from your high horse - The rules are an abstraction to give character to the game and nothing else. If in the next edition Games Workshop decides that it's bad for business to have so many different marine rules (unlikely) and makes all chapters codex, would you say anyone not playing vanilla was no longer a True Wolf?

 

Not everyone thinks and feels the same way - Some players really like terminator armour, and want to field a full force of them. Before our current codex, if a player wanted to do so they'd have to use the Deathwing rules. Were they no longer a True Wolf because they liked Space Wolves AND Terminator Armour?

 

What about using the chaos codex for a 13th company list? is that all right because the chaos codex is supposedly weaker or are they not a True Wolf either?

 

We're really comfortable branding players as lesser because they aren't doing what they were told to do?

Us?

 

Similarly, what's so awful about a person saying to themself "I really like modelling and painting rune priests and I've got so many cool ideas for figures, it's a shame I can't use them all in my army." or "man, it would be great to make a rune-dreadnought - pity only BA and GK can field them."

 

Using another Codex isn't the ideal solution, but it is a solution, and allows such players to express their creativity without spending all that time, effort and money on models only fit for display.

[hendrik]

Anyone who tries to make their Space Wolves 'count as' another army is NOT a true Space Wolves player.

 

 

Please come down from your high horse - The rules are an abstraction to give character to the game and nothing else. If in the next edition Games Workshop decides that it's bad for business to have so many different marine rules (unlikely) and makes all chapters codex, would you say anyone not playing vanilla was no longer a True Wolf?

 

Not everyone thinks and feels the same way - Some players really like terminator armour, and want to field a full force of them. Before our current codex, if a player wanted to do so they'd have to use the Deathwing rules. Were they no longer a True Wolf because they liked Space Wolves AND Terminator Armour?

 

What about using the chaos codex for a 13th company list? is that all right because the chaos codex is supposedly weaker or are they not a True Wolf either?

 

We're really comfortable branding players as lesser because they aren't doing what they were told to do?

Us?

 

Similarly, what's so awful about a person saying to themself "I really like modelling and painting rune priests and I've got so many cool ideas for figures, it's a shame I can't use them all in my army." or "man, it would be great to make a rune-dreadnought - pity only BA and GK can field them."

 

Using another Codex isn't the ideal solution, but it is a solution, and allows such players to express their creativity without spending all that time, effort and money on models only fit for display.

Tsuro, i completely understand your statement and in fact it definetly has some points (by the way, if GW ever decides to make us use the vanilla dex i know where to find you! :cuss ) but i completly understand darkseer's point of view too.

with all the established fluff so far that actually "defines" what and how the space wolves are, i think trying to "defend" yourself for using the GK dex will make no sense at all.

even if logan would order all of his rune priests together in a single fighting force they wouldn't work like the grey knights do. that's because they both are completly different armies (fluffwise).

for an example, can you see a khornate army(who as far as i'm aware despise magic) using the GK dex? imo not, but now if you make that a pre heresy (pre prospero) 1000th sons army, does it fit? surely not all 1000th sons were sorcerours but suddently your plots sounds quite more likely to happen. now if said khornate army would use the BA dex however...

 

it's actually a bit like fielding 2 wolf lords in a single armylist(non-apocalyps), sure it might be fun, but there's no way on earth it's going to happen in any of the skirmish battles non apocalypse games are ment to represent...

 

however! let's not get into debate wether it should or shouldn't be done as that's for every wolf himself to decide. what we should and must do is to work together as a pack, helping the pup to get to the point where even most of the fluffnazis would say "hm, plausible" :cuss

[Prot]

Anyone who tries to make their Space Wolves 'count as' another army is NOT a true Space Wolves player.

 

I'm not normally a fan boi like this, but for once I'm deadly serious.

It's not what the Space Wolves are about. More importantly, it's not what real Space Wolves players are about.

 

Of all the kinds of players I've met over the years, for some reason Space Wolves players are always the most passionate about their armies, while being incredibly amicable.

In fact, I've never (ever) met a Space Wolves player I didn't like!

 

So the question you've got to ask yourself is....

are you a true Space Wolves player?

 

If not, then I'd recommend you go and build an All-In-One Marine army to appease your roaming ways so you can try to win games by having the newest army, instead of mastering one of the Best armies.

 

Cheers

Adam

 

This time I have to agree with Adam. I typically don't really respond to these types of topics.... but I've personally always felt 'Counts as' was made for those... non-descript Chapters. You know the ones with an unusual paint scheme and chapter icon that looks like nothing in particular.

 

I think those chapters work, but taking a fully developed chapter and just going with a 'better' or just 'different' ruleset.... I don't understand it. I know a guy who was taking Black Templars to a tourney as BA. Incredible.

 

I look at it like this: If you are prone to joining the 'Flavour of the Month' club, get a non-descript chapter going. Otherwise taking a well developed chapter, and playing 'counts as' is really something I can't do.

 

In the end, is it legal? I suppose so. But IMHO, uncool.

 

I'm sure we'll have a handful of SW counts as GK next. <_<

[dublindawg]

While I commented earlier up in the stream of posts that the revised fluff being used by the OP, I still don't see the logic of going out to purchase GK sets and using them to equip SW sets. If one is going to spend the money just build a GK force and play it as such and if you want to play a really large game, field the GK along side the SW force you already have.

 

Now if your intent is to field some GH's with their +1A for counter charges and equip them with a NFW psyicannon to get the potential for an insta-kill, then be prepared for someone to call you out on it. That's just picking and choicing the best features of each army to have the advantage. Ea

[Darkseer]

even if logan would order all of his rune priests together in a single fighting force they wouldn't work like the grey knights do. that's because they both are completly different armies (fluffwise).

 

I just imagined 100 Rune Priests casting Jaws Of The World wolf at the same time, the whole frickin' planet splitting apart and Everyone falling down the hole <_<

[dublindawg]

even if logan would order all of his rune priests together in a single fighting force they wouldn't work like the grey knights do. that's because they both are completly different armies (fluffwise).

 

I just imagined 100 Rune Priests casting Jaws Of The World wolf at the same time, the whole frickin' planet splitting apart and Everyone falling down the hole :D

 

That might actually work with the fluff they have in the GK codex. Instead of wasting ammo on wiping out a whole planet to cover up the existance of Chaos and demons, just send in the Rune Priests....

[Tsuro]

Broadly I think we're all in a similar place - very few of us like to see one army run as another, and there's always something they can say to justify it (These templars have been crusading sooooooo long they're now extra zealous and thats why they've got a 1/6 chance of having furious charge etc..)

 

I just tend to give slightly more leeway when a codex offers that 'something special' that you couldn't otherwise do; e.g codex reserve companies cannot be built with codex marines. Every Grey Knight is a librarian.

 

I think there's a difference between "I can't field more than 10 terminators without switching my codex" and "Dark Angel storm shields are rubbish, I'll count as Space Wolves instead"

 

All I know is that if I went up against a player who'd really gone that extra mile in creating a unique rune priest force, so that they didn't just look like regular wolf terminators with grey knight arms/backs and I said to them "How come you haven't got psycannons/assassins/I-don't-know-what-I-haven't-read-the-dex" and they replied "I know they've good, but it just didn't seem wolfy to take them*" I wouldn't think any the less of that person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*If someone proxied a Chapter's 1st company with space wolves but insisted on using SB/PF as standard and only TH/SS and LC combinations otherwise because that was what the codex said, that person would end up paying through the nose, and suffer from wounding rolls. You could hardly accuse them of power gaming.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Counts as.

 

I am for it. I don't especially like the OP's fluff, but that is a separate thing.

 

Fluff ≠ rules. Whilst it is nice when dudes bring out their 'Engir Krakendoom Great Company' and it is themed as per the back story, expecting people to do so is unfair.

That GC that loves flames? John brings his list loaded up with flamers. Then gets stomped by that Tau list, or by Mech IG. Would you really expect John to bring a bad list just to satisfy a blurb that 'Codex author' penned, and then get hammered in most games, as people have realised being meched up is a great idea?

 

Fluff ≠ rules. C:SW 2nd ed. was an OP monstrosity. Now if rules = fluff, then I guess that makes Space Wolves the best Chapter around, right?

Okay, so how about 3rd ed. when Jervis Jonson detuned [though not necessarily nerfed] the Wolves, and their Dex was not better than the others? But I though Wolves were the best Chapter around?

Well, if rules = fluff, then Wolves are only as good as everyone else....

 

They can't be the best and only be as good as everyone else....

 

Fluff ≠ rules. Chaos was a terror with the 3.5 dex. Whilst the 4th ed. Dex does have some power, the best build is Lash, Oblits and Plague Marines. Surely not every warband is thusly arranged? Well, of course not, but we know fluff ≠ rules.

Really, at age 1000+ years, Chaos Marines [due to not ageing] would be sublime fighters that would cream an Imperial Marine, one on one. Yet that doesn't get reflected on the table - because it is only a game.

 

Any Imperial Marine would best scores of men, even Veterans, in battle, yet that doesn't happen on the table - because it is only a game.

 

Is it really that hard to imagine that Black Templars can fight 'wolf style' and thereby use C:SW?

Can Sword Brethren really not pass as Wolf Guard? or, using the Chaos Dex, as Chosen or Berzerkers? Really?

Templars would 'never' put their heavy weapons into one squad?

 

Yet the Wolves happily stuck las cannons onto a Predator, iIrc, and tampered with technology that is seen as somewhat arcane/supernatural, which is taboo in Imperial society. But Templars cannot get men with heavy weapons to clump together in a squad.....?

 

In the 3rd ed. dex, Rune priests were weak psykers, and even the 13th co. Rune priest was 'just' a teleporter for his squad. No supernatural pyrotechnics such fizzle and zzap were at his finger tips.

Yet the 2nd ed. version was capable of demigod status like the rest of the psykers.

 

Why am I harping on and on about these things? Because dudes get really hung up on X rules being for X minis, only. Yet GW changes them as and when they like. So they are nothing like immutable, at all. Yet people honour them as if they were unchanging.

 

Jervis, in WD 244 iIrc, included the Shan't teleport because Russ didn't like fighting that way, just to stop Wolves being OP. It wasn't there before. But it has been taken to heart by Wolf players.

Wolves disliked jump packs according to JJ, as it was also Not as Russ intended.

But Phil Kelly has made Jumpers a legit choice due to their low cost. However, Wolf Guard cannot join the young bloods, because that sort of thing is just daft. I guess age and rank preclude that sort of thing?.... so it makes a lot of sense for even older and higher ranked Wolves [the ICs] to join the young bloods in bounding across the land.... :huh:

 

Using C:CSM for Salamanders, you can make a very fluffy list. Chosen loaded up with heat weapons in ELITES and Havocs similarly armed in SUPPORT. Very cool.

Using C:CSM for Wolves, you can also make a very fluffy list:

Winged Prince as a ThunderLord. Lash Sorcerer as Rune Priest. CSM as Greys. Berzerkers as Blood Claws.

 

As Tsuro said, rules are just a mechanism for the table. So why get so possessive of them?

 

Blood Lance could easily a gun whose shot phases in and out of reality.

Storm caller could be a disruptor field.

Null zone could be a disruptor field projected onto the foe, instead of being used in defence.

The psy-test and perils roll is just hoary old tech being temperamental, much like gets hot! for plasma.

 

Just use your imagination chaps ;)

 

+++

 

As to power gaming.

Sure I love playing with and against painted minis. Armies 'in the grey' are less delightful than a three-colour one, for sure.

 

But not wanting to play Bob just because he is trying to beat you by using the 'most powerful' Codex shouldn't be a source of irritation.

If Bob spent $1K on GK, painted them and then pwned you, you'd be all sunshine and smiles. But if Bob pwned you with his Ultramarines as GK, you'd get all huffy and offended? Really?

That just seems like smallness to me.

The Dex is here. The Dex is legal. Stop using excuses so you can keep your wins high. So what if Bob hasn't spent hours and hours of work and painting to satisfy your requirements for gaming.

 

You are putting your ideals as obligations onto Bob and making him jump through your hoops so he can get a pat on the head and a "Good boy, well done".

If Bob doesn't conform to your wants, he gets disdain, rolled eyes, groans and condescension.

I thought such snobbery was the domain of societies high ups, not my brother gamers.

 

How often have we, as a minority, been derided for our love of fantasy or science or other "fringe" things and not being "mainstream" enough?

I remember get harassed for playing D&D. I can't remember liking it.

So why are we now bullying others into fitting into the hobbies "mainstream"? Have we learnt nothing from our cruel treatment?

 

Remember, Star Trek, Star Wars, computer games and science were all considered weird by society. Yet we persisted and society relented. Science and technology are no longer seen as being so weird. Yet when you consider iPhones, etc. they are the epitome of geek. Nerds of the '80s would have fainted from giddiness from the marvels we have nowadays, even on "mainstream Eddy".

 

Whilst "count as" is seen as "fringe" by many gamers today, tomorrow I don't think it will be. You can be old minded, like society was towards Star Trek, Star Wars, computer games and science, or you can be like the Nerds of yesteryear were: progressive and open to new possibilities.

 

I find it remarkable that my fellow gamers would be so like society, a society that has shunned and derided them for not wanting to be conformist and "normal", to their fellow gamers who want more from their modelling and gaming than just using X minis, X Codex and X colour scheme.

 

Widen you horizons, brothers, widen your horizons!

[Grey Mage]

Widen you horizons, brothers, widen your horizons!

Great Post.

 

I have a small rebuttal.

 

Honesty is important, there are few enough verifiable things in this world after all. So, that being said I think its spurious for the OP to come up with fluff because hes being tempted by the GK codex. If he wants to try out the shiny new toys counting-as his wolves, then do it. Theres no need to sugar-coat it though, hes not doing anything wrong after all. It seems entirely at odds with his intentions,

Most of you know I'm a die hard Space Wolf. However I want to play the new GK codex...

and theres no need for that.

 

If someone wants to use the CSM book for their sallies because of the fluff-crunch relation, I could care less. If they told me they wanted to play that way because they cant seem to use tactical squads, good for them. If they go off about how fluffy it is that they can finally give their sallies T5 and FNP and brood over how much using tacticals sucked, Im going to notice theyre not being honest with me, and theres no need for it.

 

If Johny Wolf wants to field GKs then let him field GKs using his wolf models. Hell, its probly a great idea- itll give him an insiders knowledge of the new codex and allow him to counter them with his other forces in a way that someone whos never played the army will be unlikely to match. Theres no need for him to make up a company of Rune-Priests secretly working for Grimnar to do it though.

 

*shrugs*.

 

No skin off my nose- I dont know him personally, but hes always seemed like a decent guy. I wont give him <_< for using the new codex- I dont know him well enough for that.

 

I am going to throw down though, if he wants to field the new GKs as a force under the SWs he should probly make them legio cybernetica robot maniples, with the psychic control upgrade, and make them one of the treasures of the fang.

[Forté]

As for the Inquisition and their GK pets.....how can they point to us Wolves for physical corruption and mutation when they have a chapter of mutants and witches doing their dirty work!!!! Just because those who hide on Terra sanction it, does not make it right....!!!

 

Game wise....so long as your opponent agrees then try it. I do recommend using 'counts as' before you run out and buy all the news sexy models. You may find that you hate the way they play.

 

Modelling wise though...I really want to see some orks tear a Dreadknight to pieces, bolt in a random unsuspecting ork and put some real weapons on that beast. Those current ones look lame and far too quiet. Give it a huge axe and a massive gun please!!!! And as for the stormraven...which Bloodclaw wouldn't want to be in one with his head out the window and the wind in his hair?

[Son of Rawl]

Am I the only one who is thinking of counting them as 13th Company?

 

The list is very small and elite which shows the wear and tear they have had due to the constant fighting in the warp.

 

Brotherhood of Psykers and powers such could be justified as Bestial Fury or due to prolonged exposure of the warp has allowed the 13th to unwittingly use powers, the NFWs are anthema of chaos which suits the 13th company greatly since they hunt only exist to hunt traitors

 

Stormravens can be counted as the Stormbirds that was favoured in Pre-Heresy times.

 

Dreadknights are the hardest to explain, maybe a greater wulfen perhaps?