GK Codex and Space Wolves

[Grey Mage]

Stormbirds were roughly 3 times the size of a Thunderhawk, not 1/3 the size.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah, Stormbirds were much larger than thunderhawks.

[Jonny Wolf]

Wolfing is fun! ;)

[Grey Mage]

Does look so bad... just need to scrape off all that =][= stuff.

[MaveriK]

Am I the only one who is thinking of counting them as 13th Company?

 

The list is very small and elite which shows the wear and tear they have had due to the constant fighting in the warp.

 

Brotherhood of Psykers and powers such could be justified as Bestial Fury or due to prolonged exposure of the warp has allowed the 13th to unwittingly use powers, the NFWs are anthema of chaos which suits the 13th company greatly since they hunt only exist to hunt traitors

 

Stormravens can be counted as the Stormbirds that was favoured in Pre-Heresy times.

 

Dreadknights are the hardest to explain, maybe a greater wulfen perhaps?

From a fluff perspective, how do you explain all the vehicles, mech and stuff with the 13th? when originally they lacked it, with exception of bikes. Or you can just not use Dreadknights to begin with...

[Jonny Wolf]

Does look so bad... just need to scrape off all that =][= stuff.

 

I did scrub off all the =][= stuff. It's just the residual powder.

[hendrik]

i don't see it working at all for the 13th for the same reasons mav just pointed out. How about them being some sort of rebuild loading alker used to store stuff away on some ad mech planet, rebuild in the defense against chaos?

Stormbirds i can see in every space marine army if you just elongate them a bit and add small wings in the front; instant thunderhawk;

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb281/amorfatipictures/paintmockupthunderhawk.jpg

 

how about a twist like this

 

on planet X, a planet renowned for it's ad mech forge world, the great company of wolf lord X were the last defence against chaos togther with a somewhat more radical inquisitor. with their battlebarges engines overloaded and in their most desperate hour ad mech forces decided to rebuild some of their sacred relics to be used in the last stand against chaos. rearmed and resupplied with their newly altered power armour the space wolves would make one final counterattack, driving their thunderhawks deep into the chaos ranks in an attempt to get to the planets space port and escape with as many citizens as possible.recieving the inquisitor's blessing and using his knowlegde of powers that can be used against chaos the space wolves and admech managed to escape the planet. having lost both their battlebarge and the planet to chaos every wolf swore an oath to the allfather to both retake the planet aswell as their flagship. After resupplying at the fang

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Personally I think that mixing GK fluff with ANYTHING else is silly.

 

This comes from a guy whose own Chapter is half Space Wolves and half Blood Angels. I can justify it though: the SW part is the "expeditionary force" that deals with more protracted campaigns and things that involve taking and holding. The BA part is for smash-and-grab lightning operations. And the twain shall never meet, outside of an Apocalypse game.

 

I toyed with the idea of having a third part, sort of an Order Psykana, and represent it with Grey Knights. Then after reading the Codex I realized that it would be one hell of a dumb and unjustifiable move. Ward's Grey Knights aren't just "RAAAAWR", they are "SUPER-DUPER-MEGA-RAAAAAWWWRRR". They do stuff nobody else dares to even think of. The whole thing with studying sorcery, divining demon names, carrying demon weapons around, "everyone is a psyker"... it's just not possible anywhere else. Any SM Chapter, SW included, who tried to dig that deep would soon find itself corrupted. Nobody in the Imperium of Man who lacks the "special Emperor DNA sauce" is capable of doing what GK are doing. It's what makes GK special and utterly unsuitable for count-as. Well, maybe you could go nuts and use GK codex to represent some weird Chaos force, because anything goes there. But for the forces of the Imperium of Man, GK are GK and nothing else.

 

I'd say if you wanted to field GK, suck it up and field GK. I'm pretty sure I'll collect a small "just-for-fun" force like I did with BA, when I'm done with my current projects.

[Kanis]

I am siding with the people against this sort of thing. I think it's distasteful to use and field Space wolves doing a counts-as with the Grey Knight codex, more so just to make use of new shiny rules, or whatever the reason may be. The Space Wolves are what they are, as are the Grey Knights. If you want to use an army book, play that army, please.

 

It may be unfair, cruel or just petty to feel as I do, but if you're going to play an army, play it as is. Don't hop from codex to codex to get the newest, strongest builds you can, and try and invent some hair-brained scheme to excuse it. Grey Knights are the farthest things from Space Wolves, and I believe it's shameful to field them without their codex. Fluff is all and well, but when it comes to the game, use their armybook.

 

As far as modelling goes, go nuts, it's part of the hobby, do what you please. Just my two cents, not saying my way is any more correct, or yours in wrong. To each their own.

[Firenze]

Whatever you do, dont even try to pull them off as 13th company. It doesnt work at all.

 

 

A lost company sounds better.

[skoll]

i doubt any chapter doing what the GK are doing would be corrupted. They are just the ones that get away with it by riding on the inquisition. In all honesty , our own chapter's 13th company has spent 10k years inside the warp , and out they come just as loyal as ever, with new powers and a savage unquenchable hatred for the forces of chaos.

 

In my opinion if a marine is gonna fall to chaos he is gonna do it GK or not. Sure the records say no GK has ever fallen to chaos, but now the fluff says records of the GK dont even exist pretty much. I find it no coincidence the GK have great battlefield performance if they are handed the best of everything, god knows what every blood claw in a company would achieve with a power weapon, god the space wolves charges would be the stuff battle is made of.

 

In my opinion the GK was made GARR, to please to over hyped fanatics waiting on it, nothing more nothing less and IMO it borders on the plain silly (blood ritual with sister blood to kill demon anyone?)

 

in the end to me there is nothing better than being a wolf

that is all

[hendrik]

come on pups, we've all said how we don't see it work, now let's show johny the fang is still the fang, a place where we all feel welcome and just love to spend our time! besides, surely one of you pups can come up with a better story then this old git? :)

[Grimtooth]

come on pups, we've all said how we don't see it work, now let's show johny the fang is still the fang, a place where we all feel welcome and just love to spend our time! besides, surely one of you pups can come up with a better story then this old git? :)

 

I can't start writing my Rune Priest army based on GK dex until after I am able to get a nice and deep reading of The Battle of the Fang.....lol!

[Grey Mage]

So I gotta ask- exactly how tall is the model at the shoulder?

 

How integral is the terminator body to making the model?

 

Is the waist joing at the waist?

 

How many peices is the torso?

[Emperor's Scourge]

The mold lines...the mold lines...

[Olgerth Istaarn]

i doubt any chapter doing what the GK are doing would be corrupted. They are just the ones that get away with it by riding on the inquisition. In all honesty , our own chapter's 13th company has spent 10k years inside the warp , and out they come just as loyal as ever, with new powers and a savage unquenchable hatred for the forces of chaos.

 

In my opinion if a marine is gonna fall to chaos he is gonna do it GK or not. Sure the records say no GK has ever fallen to chaos, but now the fluff says records of the GK dont even exist pretty much. I find it no coincidence the GK have great battlefield performance if they are handed the best of everything, god knows what every blood claw in a company would achieve with a power weapon, god the space wolves charges would be the stuff battle is made of.

 

In my opinion the GK was made GARR, to please to over hyped fanatics waiting on it, nothing more nothing less and IMO it borders on the plain silly (blood ritual with sister blood to kill demon anyone?)

 

in the end to me there is nothing better than being a wolf

that is all

 

Chaos is insidious. Ask Thousand Sons. They were the foremost specialists on all things in the Empyrean, and fell just the same. The correct assumption would be that everything in the Warp is hostile, and by dabbling in it, you take immense risks. Emperor's legacy in Grey Knights DNA is likely the only sure defense against Chaos, because Emperor is essentially the antithesis of Chaos.

 

Delving deeply into Warp is like working with radioactive materials without protective gear, and the Sons were a bit like Marie Curie. You can believe with all your heart that you are immune (after all, you can't smell, see or taste radiation), but you will sooner or later die of radiation poisoning just the same. GK's DNA is the equivalent of protective gear that lets them handle all things tainted and remain pure. Nobody else - no common man, no psyker, no Space Marine or Rune Priest - has that level of defense. It's not just about the =I= turning a blind eye to sorcery.

[Jonny Wolf]

So I gotta ask- exactly how tall is the model at the shoulder?

 

How integral is the terminator body to making the model?

 

Is the waist joing at the waist?

 

How many peices is the torso?

 

1. It's about twice that of a dread...maybe a bit shorter.

 

2. You could get away without the terminator armor (put a dreadnought front torso on there some how quite easily).

 

3. It joins and (if it's not glued) can separate at the waist. The model pivots on the terminator models waist if that makes sense.

 

4. Like I said, the legs and torso can separate if not glued (easier for transport, etc). But if you're asking how many pieces the kit are, it's fairly considerable...60 or so pieces maybe?

[skoll]

i doubt any chapter doing what the GK are doing would be corrupted. They are just the ones that get away with it by riding on the inquisition. In all honesty , our own chapter's 13th company has spent 10k years inside the warp , and out they come just as loyal as ever, with new powers and a savage unquenchable hatred for the forces of chaos.

 

In my opinion if a marine is gonna fall to chaos he is gonna do it GK or not. Sure the records say no GK has ever fallen to chaos, but now the fluff says records of the GK dont even exist pretty much. I find it no coincidence the GK have great battlefield performance if they are handed the best of everything, god knows what every blood claw in a company would achieve with a power weapon, god the space wolves charges would be the stuff battle is made of.

 

In my opinion the GK was made GARR, to please to over hyped fanatics waiting on it, nothing more nothing less and IMO it borders on the plain silly (blood ritual with sister blood to kill demon anyone?)

 

in the end to me there is nothing better than being a wolf

that is all

 

Chaos is insidious. Ask Thousand Sons. They were the foremost specialists on all things in the Empyrean, and fell just the same. The correct assumption would be that everything in the Warp is hostile, and by dabbling in it, you take immense risks. Emperor's legacy in Grey Knights DNA is likely the only sure defense against Chaos, because Emperor is essentially the antithesis of Chaos.

 

Delving deeply into Warp is like working with radioactive materials without protective gear, and the Sons were a bit like Marie Curie. You can believe with all your heart that you are immune (after all, you can't smell, see or taste radiation), but you will sooner or later die of radiation poisoning just the same. GK's DNA is the equivalent of protective gear that lets them handle all things tainted and remain pure. Nobody else - no common man, no psyker, no Space Marine or Rune Priest - has that level of defense. It's not just about the =I= turning a blind eye to sorcery.

 

except chaos is something that delves into u in a psychological and emotional level first. The emperor's gene-seed (if you choose to believe that is what is meant by emperor's gift) does not protect you from this, the only thing that protects you from it are blind fervor, or even stupidity. This is what is build into the grey knights they are brain washed after being wiped clean, they are clean slate to be written on.

 

Try to argue with someone who is so for an issue that it forsakes common sense(go to either extreme of the abortion debate and u'll find these people) and you'll see what is like to try to tempt a grey knight to chaos, it is arduous , exhausting ,not worth the effort, but most likely still possible.

 

Like I said 10k years in the warp bro, 10 whole thousand years, and you know why they are loyal ? because they fought next to Russ, they worship him as the greatest warrior that ever lived next to the emperor, they have experienced it first hand what it is like to have a god in their midst.

 

Gene seed or not doesnt make a difference , the omnibus says that we(SW) are created to have a revulsion for chaos, that their very smell, their very essence fills us with rage and anger, yet supposedly out there there are some dark wolves......imagine if there was somebody who every time you saw them the smell of putrid manure came to your nose, and you felt burning on your skin, would you be friends with that person? Hell no right? yet some how the chaos powers have corrupted some wolves apparently...

 

Remember the threat of chaos is ever present, and not even the GK are truly immune trough it, the suit as you call it is not fool proof, and the deceiving powers have more ways than one to turn you, perhaps without even letting you know you turned.....

 

thats my 2 cents, remember the imperium doesn't know half its records ,so believing blindly what a codex says is possibly not advisable, I for one dont think a GK fought the chaos gods single handedly , when only the emperor was able to defeat their champion (not the gods but a mere champion)

[Olgerth Istaarn]

except chaos is something that delves into u in a psychological and emotional level first. The emperor's gene-seed (if you choose to believe that is what is meant by emperor's gift) does not protect you from this, the only thing that protects you from it are blind fervor, or even stupidity. This is what is build into the grey knights they are brain washed after being wiped clean, they are clean slate to be written on.

 

Try to argue with someone who is so for an issue that it forsakes common sense(go to either extreme of the abortion debate and u'll find these people) and you'll see what is like to try to tempt a grey knight to chaos, it is arduous , exhausting ,not worth the effort, but most likely still possible.

 

Like I said 10k years in the warp bro, 10 whole thousand years, and you know why they are loyal ? because they fought next to Russ, they worship him as the greatest warrior that ever lived next to the emperor, they have experienced it first hand what it is like to have a god in their midst.

 

Gene seed or not doesnt make a difference , the omnibus says that we(SW) are created to have a revulsion for chaos, that their very smell, their very essence fills us with rage and anger, yet supposedly out there there are some dark wolves......imagine if there was somebody who every time you saw them the smell of putrid manure came to your nose, and you felt burning on your skin, would you be friends with that person? Hell no right? yet some how the chaos powers have corrupted some wolves apparently...

 

Remember the threat of chaos is ever present, and not even the GK are truly immune trough it, the suit as you call it is not fool proof, and the deceiving powers have more ways than one to turn you, perhaps without even letting you know you turned.....

 

thats my 2 cents, remember the imperium doesn't know half its records ,so believing blindly what a codex says is possibly not advisable, I for one dont think a GK fought the chaos gods single handedly , when only the emperor was able to defeat their champion (not the gods but a mere champion)

 

You can make a conscious decision to turn away from something you abhor, and call upon that which gives you strength to turn away from it and despise it. The 13th Company didn't study Chaos, they just fought it and hailed Russ for ten thousand years. Yes, they learned how to fight demons and withstand the threats of the Warp, but they didn't delve into its nature or examine it in detail to understand its inner workings. You can stop a running engine by smashing it to bits with a sledgehammer, or you can stop it by cutting the fuel line. The end result is the same, but in order to use the second approach you have to understand what a fuel line is and what it looks like and what it does. That's what Grey Knights do.

 

To use your own analogy, there are plenty hard-line Christians out there who abhor any form of erotica and pornography. You can talk to them about it, and they would shut you down, or walk away from you. You can prattle on about the beauty of nude female form all you want, but they just won't touch the subject matter. However, even if you took a most pious and devout (but heterosexual) man and made him study and classify porn day in and day out, he would be subject to temptation and there's no guarantee the temptation wouldn't take hold. To be tempted is human nature, and unless a person carries within them a foolproof safeguard (like, say, being completely disinterested in women on the account of being gay), anyone is liable to fall.

 

Now 40K's Chaos is like the strongest drug, the sweetest candy and the most beautiful and sexually liberated woman all rolled into one, especially to psykers. It really is everything to everyone: everyone lusts, everyone gets angry, everyone wants to rule the world, and barring those, everyone suffers! All humans except blanks in 40Kverse have psychic potential, so everyone is susceptible. If you have a strong enough beacon of faith (a preacher, a Chaplain, your primarch, Emperor himself), you can turn away from Chaos and guard yourself against temptation. But if your job description involves studying how Chaos REALLY works... without "something extra" you're just a babe in the woods.

[Jonny Wolf]

Sooo...does this mean you guys don't like my Rune Knights idea or what? hahahahaha :)

[skoll]

its your money and you can do what you want with it. I personally think even the name sounds cool and if you go trough the time and effort to do it i wouldnt stop you from fielding it on the table, but if i see obviously vanilla marines being fielded as SW, I'll stop the person, if you are going to make lore, then go trough the effort to make your miniatures match it.

 

if you do I say its completely fine....after all who is to say GW fluff is more legitimate than any fluff fans write?

 

"However, even if you took a most pious and devout (but heterosexual) man and made him study and classify porn day in and day out"

 

He would come to view it as work, in fact he would even go so far as to eventually find it tedious. Same logic as with food, you may love a type of food, but if you eat enough of it fast enough you'll become sick of even looking at it.There are people who simply quit the porn industry, they loved doing what they did, they were enthralled by it but eventually it just didnt do anything for them anymore.

 

Also one could quiet well argue the emperor wasnt tainted by chaos because when you have everything there isnt anything you desire. Is what I'm saying heresy?not rly not irl it wouldnt be, but i sure as hell would burn for it in the 40k universe, then again you would do so for common sense, or for defending the valiant warriors who fought besides u against the forces that oppose humanity. Overall I dont think the GK are all that , but we can agree to disagree and I wont hold you any less for not thinking what I think.

[Forté]

Sooo...does this mean you guys don't like my Rune Knights idea or what? hahahahaha :)

It's a oil and water situation.

 

The Inquisition and Grey Knights spend as much time, if not more. Protecting and covering their own actions. That I fail to see how anyone in their right mind could create the equipment they use unless they are experimenting with daemons and sorcery. Something that would get them exterminated.

 

As not the Space Wolf part. Not trusting people unless they prove worthy through their actions creates other problems too.

 

But like so many have said. It's your army. If you can justify it and your opponent is happy to play you then why not.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

its your money and you can do what you want with it. I personally think even the name sounds cool and if you go trough the time and effort to do it i wouldnt stop you from fielding it on the table, but if i see obviously vanilla marines being fielded as SW, I'll stop the person, if you are going to make lore, then go trough the effort to make your miniatures match it.

 

if you do I say its completely fine....after all who is to say GW fluff is more legitimate than any fluff fans write?

 

"However, even if you took a most pious and devout (but heterosexual) man and made him study and classify porn day in and day out"

 

He would come to view it as work, in fact he would even go so far as to eventually find it tedious. Same logic as with food, you may love a type of food, but if you eat enough of it fast enough you'll become sick of even looking at it.There are people who simply quit the porn industry, they loved doing what they did, they were enthralled by it but eventually it just didnt do anything for them anymore.

 

Also one could quiet well argue the emperor wasnt tainted by chaos because when you have everything there isnt anything you desire. Is what I'm saying heresy?not rly not irl it wouldnt be, but i sure as hell would burn for it in the 40k universe, then again you would do so for common sense, or for defending the valiant warriors who fought besides u against the forces that oppose humanity. Overall I dont think the GK are all that , but we can agree to disagree and I wont hold you any less for not thinking what I think.

 

I'm quite enjoying this debate, there's too much beer, brawling and bolter babes (hate that term, BTW) on this board. It's nice to wax philosophical every so often. I think you bring good points.

 

As for the Emperor being potentially tainted, that is (at least based on the lore I know) a spiritual impossibility. Maybe there is an unwritten "temptation of the Emperor" story somewhere, lifted right out of the biblical story about Jesus in the desert and the devil tempted him. And ending just the same way.

 

By the way and for the record: I'm not a Christian. In fact, I am rather militantly agnostic. I just know a lot of religious trivia.

[skoll]

I wouldnt mind argue with a Christian either. I myself am catholic , non practicing tough, I mean i figure there might be something out there but who am I to know that.

 

Also as far as bolter babes, I appreciate certainly their look on some of the concept art...tough Im not fond of the term.

 

 

As for the emperor, being tainted.....well I dunno I mean when you have unlimited power what can the chaos powers offer you? I could even suggest the emperor is himself a chaos god (just one of life where the others are decay, change and conflict) , bear with me for a second here, he is the amalgamation of the 1000+ psyker souls , which came together in the warp much in the same way a chaos god is born(albeit of emotions instead of actual full blown souls). Its an interesting theory tough its on rather shaky grounds, but if you think about it the emperor has done much the same as chaos albeit the opposite.

 

 

^heresy

[Grey Mage]

I think for me its less a problem with the idea of rune knights, and more of a "why?" situation.

 

Mostly because Im completely ignoring the stupidity that is the new ward-style fluff, and going with ye olde- Grey Knights and SWs get along because they see eye-to-eye on alot of things, and are well aware of each others loyalties.

 

Now, that this sometimes at cross-purposes to inquisitors is something that both factions actually have in common with each other. GKs refuse orders from inquisitors at times because they dont trust them- ie no, we will not capture that demon weapon for personal use, well destroy it and banish the demon its formed from back to the warp. As I recall a GK was even on the inquisitions high council because they are such a force within it.

 

So I personally dont see the problem with GKs allying in with SWs for a good fight. We know it happens sometimes, and that its kosher, atleast as kosher as anything is in the grimdark.

 

So why raise the bar on how many random psyckers are alive on fenris by making enough of them join the wolves to form these rune-knights?