Lord Antharis Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 From what Ive read of the fluff, most princes are risen by only one of the Great Powers. How about those that worship all the gods zealously (such as Word Bearers) who view servitude to one power in isolation as weakness (at best)? My theory (which is unsuported by any fluff Iv'e read) is that while a single power may be able to rise a mortal to Daemonhood, he is unable to claim him as his own sole property, especially if he already bears the mark of one or more of the other gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Riorik Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 There are other powers that swim the Great Ocean besides the gargantuan beings that are the Four Gods. Some of those beings could have the power to ascend someone to Daemonhood perhaps. My view on the denizens of the warp is that there are lots of individual beings vying for power within and that it is entirely possible for beings such as Daemon Princes to shift allegiances, acting sort of like mercenaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 In fantasy, there is Belakor, undivided daemon prince (with OBVIOUS malal reference). There ARE undivided daemon princes, most of them are raised by lesser chaos gods (there are crapton of them in the fluff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 lesser chaos gods (there are crapton of them in the fluff). Do you mean in the Fantasy fluff or in the 40k fluff as well? I ask because I am interested in finding solid references for lesser gods in the 40k fluff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 lesser chaos gods (there are crapton of them in the fluff). Do you mean in the Fantasy fluff or in the 40k fluff as well? I ask because I am interested in finding solid references for lesser gods in the 40k fluff... The lesser ones were divorced from 40K's fluff, and they play a larger role in Fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Lorgar is a Demon Prince, all the gods love him. Just be a diabolical sweet talker and you to can rise to that heavenly plane.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 lesser chaos gods (there are crapton of them in the fluff). Do you mean in the Fantasy fluff or in the 40k fluff as well? I ask because I am interested in finding solid references for lesser gods in the 40k fluff... The lesser ones were divorced from 40K's fluff, and they play a larger role in Fantasy. Sons of Malice, dreadaxe and Belakor were all Malal-related. 2 of 3 were 40k. If i remember right, there is talk about innumerable warp entities. SoD and LatD fluff was not retconed in this area, it's still intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Chaos Gods (Big Four) are basically Greater Greater Greater Greater Daemons, there are still Greater Greater Greater Daemons and Greater Greater Daemons, which can be called Lesser Chaos Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Sons of Malice, dreadaxe and Belakor were all Malal-related. 2 of 3 were 40k. If i remember right, there is talk about innumerable warp entities. SoD and LatD fluff was not retconed in this area, it's still intact. Yes, and then Malal ceased to exist in 40k due to HIM being retconned out. The crack pipe is worthless if you un-invent crack. As Blood Gorgons illustrated, you can offer yourself into the service of Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons as opposed to the Big Four, but as pertains to actually mattering in the grand scheme, Malal matters about as much in 40K as Necoho or Zuvassin. It's hardly right or fair that Malal got burned by, of all things, GW forgetting to stake a claim on IP after letting the creator exit the building, but like Doomrider and other such creations that have vanished in the mists of time and edition changes, you can call it a goose, but it's never going to lay an egg, golden or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Aren't all warp entities created or at least fuelled by the emotions of sentient beings? Since there are at least some who worship chaos undivided, shouldn't there also be a personification for this power? It may not take such an active hand in the scheme of things as its four "brothers" but it should still be there. If it has at least comparable Power, it should be able to award its loyal servants with daemonhood. Also, as far as I can see neither daemon prince model looks like it is allied to any one of the four. All symbols I can see is the eight pointed star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Undivided Daemon Princes don't even particularly have to be "daemon princes" in the literal sense, they may simply be Lords that have accumulated great power, strength and stature through other means. Whether it's through chemical mutation, bionic enhancement, space-steroid-junkie drug taking or any other means, they may reach the level of "Daemon Prince" without particularly "worshipping" any of the gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venjenz Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Well, it is chaos, so I'd think any hard and fast rules have shelf lives of a few minutes or less. Point being, chaos having rigid rules is oxymoronic. Want an undivided DP? Then make one, and say "hey, it's chaos." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssel Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 If memory serves me right, wasn't Slannesh just some minor power untill he exploited the Eldar and found his place among the top tier? And in the Daemon Codex they state that there are Daemon Princes who command Furries and the like in their own small domain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Nope- before the fall of the Eldar, Slaanesh was "not yet born". The slow collapse into decadence of the Eldar, was what caused a new deity to grow in the warp, eventually "being born" as a full Chaos god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 And in the Daemon Codex they state that there are Daemon Princes who command Furries and the like in their own small domain. Furries or Furies? @Slaanesh: Wasn't there this weird temproal phenomenon that once the depravity of the Eldar created Slaanesh, it has always been there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssel Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I call them Furries because I don't like them ;) My bad then, been a while sense I read the Chaos dex.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Sons of Malice, dreadaxe and Belakor were all Malal-related. 2 of 3 were 40k. If i remember right, there is talk about innumerable warp entities. SoD and LatD fluff was not retconed in this area, it's still intact. Yes, and then Malal ceased to exist in 40k due to HIM being retconned out. The crack pipe is worthless if you un-invent crack. As Blood Gorgons illustrated, you can offer yourself into the service of Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons as opposed to the Big Four, but as pertains to actually mattering in the grand scheme, Malal matters about as much in 40K as Necoho or Zuvassin. It's hardly right or fair that Malal got burned by, of all things, GW forgetting to stake a claim on IP after letting the creator exit the building, but like Doomrider and other such creations that have vanished in the mists of time and edition changes, you can call it a goose, but it's never going to lay an egg, golden or otherwise. Hmmm but if you bring crack back under another name then all is good? There is now a being called Malice who seems to be taking on some of Malals traits... not to mention Malal and Malice not being to far apart. As for lesser gods they do exist in 40k... the question is are they gods? I mean you can argue that the chaos gods are not gods in the normal meaning of the word and are just powerful beings... in which case how powerful do you need to be to be classed as a god? You certainly get daemon princes who are worshipped as gods and there are undivided daemons (with no mortal connection as all daemon princes once had) as well... the real question is how strong is the next strongest power that isn't one of the big 4... One would like to think they at least compare with the stronger greater daemons of the big 4... such as Skarbrand, Angrath, Scabiwatitsname, Zarkynel and the Soul flayer but we don't really know... we are introduced to various warp entities in the background that seem no be undivided or at least not dedicated to one of the big 4... but often the nature of such beings is not explained... they could be daemon princes... they could be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 My take on the chaos gods is that they are formed from intelligent race's emotion and exist in a way as someone perceives them, so a chaos undivided chappy would see khorne, slaneesh tzeench and nurgle as different manifestations of the same diety and so there for they are. Sort of like how some hindu's believe that all there gods are different aspects of the some diety or the trinity in catholicism. My take on the chaos gods is that they are formed from intelligent race's emotion and exist in a way as someone perceives them, so a chaos undivided chappy would see khorne, slaneesh tzeench and nurgle as different manifestations of the same diety and so there for they are. Sort of like how some hindu's believe that all there gods are different aspects of the some diety or the trinity in catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hmmm but if you bring crack back under another name then all is good? There is now a being called Malice who seems to be taking on some of Malals traits... not to mention Malal and Malice not being to far apart. Malal is a name; malice is a noun. There is no reason to assume there is an entity named "Malice" just because there's a Renegade warband called 'The Sons of Malice" than there would be to assume there is an entity named "Redemption" because there's a Chapter called "The Angels of Redemption", especially given that the Sons of Malice were the Sons of Malice even as a Loyalist Chapter. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoC Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hmmm but if you bring crack back under another name then all is good? There is now a being called Malice who seems to be taking on some of Malals traits... not to mention Malal and Malice not being to far apart. Malal is a name; malice is a noun. There is no reason to assume there is an entity named "Malice" just because there's a Renegade warband called 'The Sons of Malice" than there would be to assume there is an entity named "Redemption" because there's a Chapter called "The Angels of Redemption", especially given that the Sons of Malice were the Sons of Malice even as a Loyalist Chapter. ^_^ Going this way Belakor is obviously not linked with Kalab, champion of malal :) It's obvious bone thrown toward the old guard. It's not invalidated in current fluff, therefore it still exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Malal is a name; malice is a noun. There is no reason to assume there is an entity named "Malice" just because there's a Renegade warband called 'The Sons of Malice" than there would be to assume there is an entity named "Redemption" because there's a Chapter called "The Angels of Redemption", especially given that the Sons of Malice were the Sons of Malice even as a Loyalist Chapter. :lol: There is slightly more evidence of the Malal -> Malice change, in the short story The Labyrinth from Heroes of the Space Marines . As for Undivided DPs in general, I know in a previous discussion I explained how I use the Forge of Souls from the Codex: Daemons book http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forge_of_Souls as the source of daemonhood for my guy. The whole idea that the four dark gods aren't the only big fish in the sea is far and away the easiest and most logical conclusion for an Undivided Daemon Prince that I've come across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC2Small Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 If you take the Chaos Daemon Codex, look at page 7: the birth of Slaanesh... I quote: "while in the Immaterium a new warp power stirred. Created by its growing indulgence and axcess, the first motes of slaanesh began to coalesce. The dormant Slaanesh fed upon the unchecked psyche of the Eldar, drawing on their lust and ambition, their artistry and pursuit of excellence. and: "In essence, slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed." Then, as someone allready said on page 44 (Page of the Soul Grinders) it states that their is another realm, the forge of souls.... In the description of Furies it states that they are denied excess to any of the 4 realms but reside somewhere else in the Warp... Where it does not say, but the Warp holds more entities and patrons than the big 4. If I am not mistake in the first edition ever of 40k there were way more gods then the 4 we know right now, I forgot all of them... I believe there was a god of lies, a god of darkness and a few others... but I only had the privilige once to hold a book that old and that was years ago when I didnt care much about fluff yet.... silly boy I was back then! :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.