G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Hello brothers! I was just going over the new codex with a friend of mine and we came up with a few questions that we could not quite answer so we are going to need some help. Firstly. This one is probably obvious but it comes down to a RAW or RAI (or even obsolete and no longer applicable). The "Grey Knights" are not the "Daemonhunters" right? So does that mean the Witch Hunters are unable to ally with them? I thought it would be cool to run an inquisitional GK army with some allied units of Sisters. We think the answer is "No" but what do you guys think. Second. How many attacks does the Dreadknight have? It has 3 in the profile right? It has 2 dreadnought close combat weapons so does it get the bonus attack? Do you lose this bonus if you take the greatsword or thunder hammer upgrade? In the BRB under the dreadnought cc weapon section it says so long as it has two it gets the bonus no where in there does it say they have to be the same type. (also with this being a MC does that still apply and will it have Str 6 or str 10?) Third. The psyk out blasts fromt he orbital strikes or the stormraven missiles. Can you snipe psykers with them? The rule says that any psyker hit by one must take a perils of the warp in addition to anything else. So does this mean that if you have a unit of wraithguard and an attached warlock, that if any blast touches the warlock he will take perils? Or will you have to get saturation. Since saturation relies on wounds and the rules clearly says "hit" does this mean you can snipe? If so then an enemy's psychic defense (psychic hood, rune priest, runes or warding) could just be sniped and made worthless. This would also mean that paladin squads could be destroyed in a single turn by one stormraven. (i.e. blasts are positioned so that models take multiple perils and can't spread wounds around) Thoughts? So those are the early questions we came up with. Ranging from easiest to hardest (and most game breaking). What do you guys think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Second. How many attacks does the Dreadknight have? It has 4 in the profile right? It has 2 dreadnought close combat weapons so does it get the bonus attack? Do you lose this bonus if you take the greatsword or thunder hammer upgrade? In the BRB under the dreadnought cc weapon section it says so long as it has two it gets the bonus no where in there does it say they have to be the same type. (also with this being a MC does that still apply and will it have Str 6 or str 10?) If it has two doomfists, it gets the extra attack. I would interpret the extra attack to go away, partly because I interpret the rule in the walkers section to mean DCCWs, but only writing "close combat weapons" for brevity. Partly because the NDK isn't a walker. Either way, I think you lose the extra attack. With the unit being an MC and not a walker, RAW the doomfist doesn't double strength, but it's pretty obvious that it's intended to and that there's an error in the codex. I'd say it's reasonable to double strength, even though it's technically against the RAW. Third. The psyk out blasts fromt he orbital strikes or the stormraven missiles. Can you snipe psykers with them? The rule says that any psyker hit by one must take a perils of the warp in addition to anything else. So does this mean that if you have a unit of wraithguard and an attached warlock, that if any blast touches the warlock he will take perils? Or will you have to get saturation. Since saturation relies on wounds and the rules clearly says "hit" does this mean you can snipe? If so then an enemy's psychic defense (psychic hood, rune priest, runes or warding) could just be sniped and made worthless. This would also mean that paladin squads could be destroyed in a single turn by one stormraven. (i.e. blasts are positioned so that models take multiple perils and can't spread wounds around) Thoughts? So those are the early questions we came up with. Ranging from easiest to hardest (and most game breaking). What do you guys think? It says "hit", not "wounded", so you only have to touch it with the blast template IMO. It's kind of a weird situation, since template weapons don't have to hit only the models under the template. Still, I would say that because the rule is "hit", the effect triggers when you cover the psyker with the blast template (the squad in the case of GKs, the psyker model in the case of anything else). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Second. How many attacks does the Dreadknight have? It has 4 in the profile right? It has 2 dreadnought close combat weapons so does it get the bonus attack? Do you lose this bonus if you take the greatsword or thunder hammer upgrade? In the BRB under the dreadnought cc weapon section it says so long as it has two it gets the bonus no where in there does it say they have to be the same type. (also with this being a MC does that still apply and will it have Str 6 or str 10?) Errr don't you mean 3 attacks? Two fists nets you +1A and a Doomhammer or Great Sword stops the bonus as it is a Monstrous Creature not a Dreadnought. RAW the fists strike at S6, the FAQ could change that. EDIT: Ninja'd Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 Second. How many attacks does the Dreadknight have? It has 4 in the profile right? It has 2 dreadnought close combat weapons so does it get the bonus attack? Do you lose this bonus if you take the greatsword or thunder hammer upgrade? In the BRB under the dreadnought cc weapon section it says so long as it has two it gets the bonus no where in there does it say they have to be the same type. (also with this being a MC does that still apply and will it have Str 6 or str 10?) Errr don't you mean 3 attacks? Two fists nets you +1A and a Doomhammer or Great Sword stops the bonus as it is a Monstrous Creature not a Dreadnought. RAW the fists strike at S6, the FAQ could change that. EDIT: Ninja'd I was just reading the BRB p. 73 where it talks about DCCW. And it states "a dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon that doubles the walkers strength in close combat." So by that the Dreadknight would be str 6 still since it is not a walker. It also sounds like it would still get it's bonus attacks with the greatsword since DCCW are power weapons not power fists and thus you don't need to have two of the same to get the bonus. As far as i know the hammer says "counts as a thunderhammer that strikes at initiative" so without two of them you'd not get a bonus attack. Does that logic track right with you guys? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Power weapon it may be but it still has a special ability (albeit one it can't use) so to me it looks like it falls under 'Two different special weapons'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 Power weapon it may be but it still has a special ability (albeit one it can't use) so to me it looks like it falls under 'Two different special weapons'. Ah but on pg. 42 of the BRB it specifically lists "powerfists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws" as the exception. It does not say "weapons with special abilities" it specifically lists three types of close combat weapons and since the DCCW are not considered to be any of those three types I'm thinking it would still have the +1 attack so long as the dreadknight did not have a thunder hammer. Let me put it another way. Force weapons are power weapons that do something special but you don't need to have two of them to get the +1 bonus. This is the same thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I'm on about the point below that. You have a Great Sword which is a unique special weapon, it allows you to re-roll etc. You have a Nemesis Doomfist which is a unique special weapon, it doubles the strengths of walkers. That is 2 special weapons which is the 4th sub heading under that section. I know the DK can't use the ability but the weapon still has that ability which makes it more than just a power weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 I see what you are saying now Ashe. I'll have to check the exact wording of the great sword. Is it still a DCCW or does it completely replace the weapon...how does the wraithlord work? it is in a similar situation. It has 2 DCCW and it has a sword as an upgrade that lets it reroll and i believe it is assumed to still have its bonus attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 The Wraith Lord has either its hand or the sword, no DCCWs are involved. It is S10 normally and so adding the sword does nothing in the way of extra attacks. The sword replaces a doomfist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 I see what you are saying now Ashe. I'll have to check the exact wording of the great sword. Is it still a DCCW or does it completely replace the weapon...how does the wraithlord work? it is in a similar situation. It has 2 DCCW and it has a sword as an upgrade that lets it reroll and i believe it is assumed to still have its bonus attacks. oh nevermind about the wraithlord i just checked my codex and it does not list 2 dccw (that was the previous dex) so the wraithlord has only 2 attacks. Does make me wonder why they decided to call the DK fists DCCW's in the first place unless they wanted the basic DK to have an extra attack. Who knows. lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I guess they wanted a weapon that would work on both DK and Dreadnoughts but failed to notice it doesn't work on MCs. It does make me wonder is best, the sword or just fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 Doing a little math hammering here it looks like the sword is the best vs the extra attack from the 2 fists and this only changes vs tough 7 or 8 enemies where the thunder hammer starts to have preference. Here is how it breaks down. Vs WS 4 Marines or below: 2 Fist = 2.22 dead sword = 2.59 dead thunder = 1.66 dead Vs WS 5 Marines or better: 2 Fist = 1.66 dead sword = 2.18 dead thunder = 1.25 dead Lets say you are vs a To 6 MC and you want to see which is better: Vs WS 4 or below: 2 Fist = 1.33 wounds sword = 2 wounds thunder = 1.66 wounds Vs WS 5 or better: 2 Fist = 1 wound sword = 1.68 wounds Thunder = 1.25 wounds Now vs a To 8 Wraithlord: Vs WS 4 2 Fist = 0.44 wounds sword = 0.81 wounds thunder = 1.66 wounds So assuming my math is correct it looks like all around the sword would be a statistically better option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 This would also mean that paladin squads could be destroyed in a single turn by one stormraven. (i.e. blasts are positioned so that models take multiple perils and can't spread wounds around) Thoughts? Ok so I just read through the dex again and i think that Grey Knights are at least safe from this happening. The brotherhood of psykers rule is clear that the unit counts as a single psyker so only one perils would happen (either the justicar or a random model). Still means you can snipe a sarg but at least paladin units don't get effed. Still unsure if you can snipe individual psyker models though. (like IC's) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTang Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Firstly. This one is probably obvious but it comes down to a RAW or RAI (or even obsolete and no longer applicable). The "Grey Knights" are not the "Daemonhunters" right? So does that mean the Witch Hunters are unable to ally with them? I thought it would be cool to run an inquisitional GK army with some allied units of Sisters. We think the answer is "No" but what do you guys think. Witch Hunters can't ally with them. Unlike for Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, the rules that let the Witch Hunters ally with Daemonhunters were in the Daemonhunters codex. (And the rules that let Daemonhunters ally with Witch Hunters is in the Witch Hunters codex.) That doesn't exist any longer, so that alliance can't happen by RAI or RAW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Firstly. This one is probably obvious but it comes down to a RAW or RAI (or even obsolete and no longer applicable). The "Grey Knights" are not the "Daemonhunters" right? So does that mean the Witch Hunters are unable to ally with them? I thought it would be cool to run an inquisitional GK army with some allied units of Sisters. We think the answer is "No" but what do you guys think. Witch Hunters can't ally with them. Unlike for Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, the rules that let the Witch Hunters ally with Daemonhunters were in the Daemonhunters codex. (And the rules that let Daemonhunters ally with Witch Hunters is in the Witch Hunters codex.) That doesn't exist any longer, so that alliance can't happen by RAI or RAW. Is there someone who has the old Witch Hunters codex? I don't have it, and as the PDF version doesn't have the allies rules, I can't consult that. I do have the Daemonhunters codex, which contradicts what you're saying. The Daemonhunters codex says what can be inducted as allies, but also has a section listing what armies can take Daemonhunters units as allies (this is the section which let you use them as allies in a SM army). That section lists "Sisters of Battle" as an army which can use DH allies, so if the Witch Hunters codex similarly lists "Grey Knights", then you could use them as allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 The usual 1 HQ, 1 Elite and 2 Trops can ally with the new Grey Knights. These are ally rules in the WH 'dex itself, and not yet invalidated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2710796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brovius Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 With the Mindstrike missiles, may I direct you to page 30 of the rule book... "Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at the blast marker from above- all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit..." Then, "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit have been worked out, the firer rolls to wound as normal..." The Mindstrike missile entry also stated that models hit by the missile suffers the perils of the warp, i naddition to other affects. So it's established that any model under the marker is hit, as it uses the word 'model' and not 'unit'. If anyone tries to argue the point, a model is defined as "...an individual playing piece with it's own capabilities". I'm sure you can work out how the rest goes :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2711005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 The usual 1 HQ, 1 Elite and 2 Trops can ally with the new Grey Knights. These are ally rules in the WH 'dex itself, and not yet invalidated. I just pulled out my witch hunters dex to check the exact wording for the allies rule. It lists 3 imperial armies types that they can ally with. "Space Marines including variants...(list of chapters)...and other loyalist Index Astartes chapters" then it lists Guard and its variants and daemonhunters. So i guess the question is...are the Grey Knights considered "Space Marines" or "Loyalist Index Astartes"? I think most people would consider them to be Space Marines and thus Witch Hunters could ally but what about the rules lawyers out there? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2711040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Grey Knights aren't either a Space Marine chapter (seeing as they're listed as Chapter 666 in the 'dex), or at the least a loyalist army. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2711046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.M. Valens Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Grey Knights aren't either a Space Marine chapter (seeing as they're listed as Chapter 666 in the 'dex), or at the least a loyalist army. ;) Don't underestimate the idiots out there :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/226358-a-few-gk-questions/#findComment-2711048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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