GK Troops

[Zagman]

I don't know where to begin, your Math hammering is really poor. You have rounded and propagated error all throughout this. Then used that faulty data to make further projections. You also assume that the units are on the move. You also failed to include rending from the psycannons into your calculations. The killing power of a Purifier squad is drastically increased when it stands still thanks to the Psycannons. Don't forget about the assault phase.

i thought the psycannons are only rending when stationary, it seems to support that in the books, assault 2 or heavy 4 rending, i assumed that meant only the heavy 4 were rending, which is why i did not add that to my calculations, then it is a fact that GW has very poorly written books so i guess anything is possible

 

also i am assuming worst case scenario and thus rounding all numbers down and counting them as moving all the time, if you'd like i can write out every single possible scenario, but that would be several pages long as over 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or (until you fail the end of game roll) lets say n turns they can not move all game, move every turn, move just once, or move on any combination of turns up to n, this would take WAY too many pages to write out properly

 

i'm a math major, don't impune my honor, i was writing it more simplistically so people could understand, also i use the word APPROXIMATELY several times informing that i was rounding some answers for simplicity's sake, i also based this wholly upon shooting, not including assault at all, as that adds yet another level to the already somewhat complicated list of statical analysis

 

I didn't mean to hurt your math major honor. Rounding in that fashion paints a very different picture when extrapolated and is utterly unreliable and unusable. Either do it right, or don't bother. Since you can't hear tone over the internet, I'm not attacking you, just throwing my opinion around.

 

I'm not saying your need pages of calculations, just a handful of accurate ones.

[Marshal van Trapp]

fair enough but not everything comes out as a nice perfect little fraction, especially with 3rds, but if anyone wants i can do a post on it in this forum, i'll make it a separate thread since i don't want to get this one too far off topic

[Inquisitor Fox]

If you're Dsing into your opponents DZ, you won't have Servo Skulls there. You can only take TH on Purgation Squads, so realistically you're only looking at Dsing with any sort of reliabilty if you have a SR or Libby (possibly attached to Mordrak).

 

Anything else is just asking for a DS mishap.

 

As for having them in your on DZ, the DS isn't needed, and with at most a 24" range they will do nothing other than sit on your home objective casting Warp Quake.

 

I'd view that as a waste of 100 points. :D

You are forgetting that we can put teleport homers on Justicars, and that a mystic in an Inquisitors retinue also helps prevent DS scatter. This means we just have to rush one squad into enemy territory, then bring in the reinforcements around them.

 

What job can the Strike Squad do, that Purifiers/Interceptors can't do better?

Deep strike and be a scoring unit without a GKGM ;)

[Ashe Darke]

I don't think Interceptors are a good replacement for SS when it comes to Warp Quake to be honest. A 10 man unit of Interceptors costs 60pts more and they aren't scoring. They're also no better than SS in combat. Sure they can move around faster and have the shunt but I've never been keen on jump infantry, they're too exposed, plus the Rhino is cheaper.

 

And as for Warp Quake it is pretty horrific against the right armies. Daemons deploy miles away and get shot up and drop pods land too far away to be effective either. No half range for meltas etc. In fact most the time rapid firing won't be an option. It's a situational power but then again so is Cleansing Flame.

 

I think realistically you need to have a mix of SS and Purifiers to get both abilities which, is what I'm doing in my 1750+ lists. There's no room for it at 1500 :D

[Gentlemanloser]

You are forgetting that we can put teleport homers on Justicars

 

Only the Purgation Squad Justicars can take homers mate. No one else can.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Fair point, I was misremembering that. Alright, so we can amend my previous statement about Teleport Homers to Purgation Squads and Storm Ravens, however when paired with Inquisitorial Mystics and Servo Skulls, that can still be a fairly large amount of table that is covered by some form of deep strike assistance.

 

Considering pretty much all our weapons are assault weapons being slightly off position isn't as big a hamper on our firepower. In addition, it also wastes some of the opponents anti-tank firepower by removing the lightly armored Rhino or Razorback from the equation. We can certainly continue to use them, however there is something to be said for utilizing a Storm Raven carrying a Purgation squad into enemy territory, along with another mobile Inquisitor in Chimera or Land Raider with a Mystic or two, then deep striking your Strike Squads and Terminators right in the enemy deployment zone before unleashing a hail of psybolt ammo fire :ph34r:

 

They won't do everything better than Interceptors or Purifiers. It's simply another possible way to play that seems to be less "in favor" initially for reasons I don't entirely get. Perhaps it's simply because I detest Rhinos as a useless box. Why would I want to pay points for something paperthing that is simply going to be shot and destroyed in the first turn or two, and even if it lives is now essentially useless to me? Especially when I can deep strike for free :o

[Valerian]

@Marmande, you cannot attach a Librarian to Crowe. Independent Characters (eg the Librarian), cannot attach to single-model, non-Independant Characters (such as Crowe).

 

If I were a mech guy this would be easy, as I would just take a bunch of Purifier squads in Rhinos, as the core of my army and either pay the Crowe tax, or take two minimum Terminator squads to fill my Troops requirement. However, for theme, I prefer the Teleport Assault concept, and the poor Purifiers don't have Deep Strike (aargh!). I can't rely on The Summoning to pull them where I want, or on Grand Strategy to give them an Outflank via Scout. I am definitely stuck in a delimma that I have not yet resolved. I like the Strike Squads, but they are so expensive to upgrade that they cost as much as Purifiers (and I have to upgrade as I've got 40 of the old metal models which I'm not about to completely redo from scratch).

 

Decisions, decisions.

[Gentlemanloser]

Val, you could always stick the Purifiers into Stormravens. :lol:

 

And Deep Strike them, as the 'Ravens have DS!

 

Now, if only we got locator beacons... :/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Strike squads are pretty meh, I'd honestly take Terminators over them, and definately take Purifiers if your army allows for it (ie if you're willing to put up with one less HQ choice and 150 less points to spend)

 

Terminators are good at holding objectives and not dying to most things, and being fairly good in combat. I'd hesitate in taking them over Purifiers, and Paladins are an auto-win if you take Draigo. They make a good bodyguard to your Librarian in smaller games, they're just sadly not as good as Paladins when you have the points to swap.

 

Purifiers are made of win on so many levels. Quad psycannon makes vehicles, infantry and monsters come apart. They hit as hard as Terminators in close-combat (cheap halberds, cheap hammer), but can fit in a Rhino (so are cheap to mechanise, unlike Terminators who need a Stormraven) and do fire support (thus making Purgation squads irrelevant). Crowe to make them Troops in smaller games, Grandmaster or Draigo in larger games to do the same (or in Capture and Control/Annhilation, give them Outflank for extra lulz).

 

Paladins are Deathstar counters without compare. Against ranged fire you only need to worry about plasma cannon or Demolisher cannon (and their equivalents), everything else will bounce off your 2-wound FNP 2+ save infantry. Once in combat, WS5 makes you actually hit stuff and double psycannon means you can help provide fire support as well. Very flexible, very deadly. Boosted with Draigo/Grandmaster with rad grenades/Librarian attached, they will make Nob Bikers and Stormhammers cry into their pools of blood.

 

Interceptors will get shot down and are basically more expensive Strike squads (which is even stupider), Purgation squads are meh and compete with Dreadnoughts/Dreadknights for Heavy slots.

[boreas]

I'd always take a GKSS squad if only to use Warp Quake. Might be the metagame here, but creating bubbles of "no-deepstrike" is just too good to pass. At the very least, a single squad of 10, possibly split-up in combat squads. In any events, with the psybolts you get 20 St5 shots, which can be used to annoy rhinos or strip-up heavy-weapons squads and such...

 

Phil

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Warp Quake' is highly overrated. Sure Daemons and drop pod lists hate you, but Daemons already get tabled hard by our army, and drop pod lists get annhilated by Heavy mode psycannon and storm bolter, not to mention counter-charging them.

[Ashe Darke]

'Warp Quake' is highly overrated. Sure Daemons and drop pod lists hate you, but Daemons already get tabled hard by our army, and drop pod lists get annhilated by Heavy mode psycannon and storm bolter, not to mention counter-charging them.

Not all lists that have at least one drop-pod is a drop pod list, a guy I play regularly has just one in his list. I lost a Dread the other day to one dropping down next to it with a meltagun. I forgot about Warp Quake. It really depends what your opponents are like really. Where I am Warp Quake is far more likely to be used than Cleansing Flame because no one plays hordes round here.

[Wildfire]

Just a quick note to those thinking a dread scores: you're wrong. The GM ability allows it to claim as if it were Troops. Vehicles in Troop slots can't score. So no scoring Dreadnaughts.

[BrotherWasted]

Pretty much. That's RAW, no room for interpretation. Grand Strategy does not exempt the Walker from the BRB restriction, so no dice.

[Gentlemanloser]

Codex overrides Main book.

 

The Codex let's them claim objectives, they can claim objectives.

[Wildfire]

Codex overrides Main book.

 

The Codex let's them claim objectives, they can claim objectives.

 

That's the whole point. The codex does not let them claim objectives, it lets them claim as if they were Troops. So now you refer to the rules for Troops claiming objectives, and see that vehicles cannot claim.

 

Compare that to Ravenwing speeders, where it simply says they are claiming. Nothing about "as Troops," which is the critical difference.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Codex overrides the Vehicles cannot claim part of the Troop section in the main book. As it allows Walkers to claim as troops (Even though Troop vehicles can't usually claim).

 

The claim as troops is becuase only Troops can claim. ;)

 

If it didn't override the restriction in the main book on troop Vehicles not being able to score, then the Codex isn't fully being applied over the rulebook.

[Wildfire]

I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. But I don't want to derail your thread, so I'll drop it here.

[iamnothere]

I think it's a valid point to bring up in this thread as it concerns troops.

 

Yes the BRB does let other units claim as if they were troops and anything with an armour value can't claim as per those conditions.

 

I think it's quite an interesting phrase - it doesn't say becomes troops, it doesn't say is scoring, it does say that it can claim objectives as if they were troops.

 

Now looking at various codex - orks and wolves - both have troop choices that can't claim objectives - deff dreads and fenrisian wolves.

 

I'm coming down on Dreads can't claim objectives - and I'd expect a FAQ to back that up.

[Gentlemanloser]

I do understand Wildfire, and get your point. There's def room for debate about it!

 

Now looking at various codex - orks and wolves - both have troop choices that can't claim objectives - deff dreads and fenrisian wolves.

 

Def Dread because the Ork codex offers no way to override the main book rules on wlakers scoring (and Death Company Dreads), and the wolves have a codex specific rules to stop them scoring (supernumery IIRC).

 

Edit: And the Daemons form the CSM Dex have a similar rule.

[Wildfire]

Well, if you don't mind it, then I'll bite.

 

Fist off, let me toss out the examples above. Orks was a 4th edition codex. Back then everything was scoring, which was why that wording is present. Fenrisian Wolves have specific wording disallowing them to score because under normal circumstances they would be scoring if they were troops. Daemons have both these problems.

 

Now, I can't do exact quotes except from the GK 'dex because that's all I have on hand, so please bear with me. In 5th edition, normal vehicles in the Troops section do not score. With the GM strategy, Dreads (among others) are allowed to score as if they were Troops. The only way I can read this is to pretend they were in the Troops section to begin with. So, if a Dread were able to be taken as a normal Troop, what would the rules say about it scoring? They say that no vehicle may score. Thus the Dread is not scoring, even with the GM strat.

 

One RAI argument I'll throw in is that the leaked PDF changed the wording from simply "may claim objectives" to "may claim objectives as if they were Troops". While I will always take RAW over RAI in the case of a rules disagreement, I do think this is significant RAI argument in support of what I've said.

 

I will say that unless someone can come up with a new argument, or does not understand my chain of logic, I'm not going to discuss it further or change my mind. I've already gotten in one argument about this on another board, and I'm tired of the subject already. I think RAW is quite clear, others disagree, talk it over with your opponent before playing and hope a FAQ comes out soon.

[number6]

What job can the Strike Squad do, that Purifiers/Interceptors can't do better?

Deep strike and be a scoring unit without a GKGM ;)

This. :) The GM is righteous, but not necessary or even desirable in every list. Most people here so far seem to think that there are exactly Three Ways to build GK lists:

 

1. Draigo for scoring Paladins

2. Crowe for scoring Purifiers

3. GM for making Purifiers scoring and GKTs for Troops

 

I cannot adequately describe how limited this thinking is. Morticon, a B&C BA forum mod, has been staying with me at my house since Adepticon and we have gone absolutely ape :cuss with GK army builds. Only a few have featured a GM. So far, none have featured Draigo and Crowe. There's a lot more to the codex than many of the posters in the OI have yet to realize. ^_^ I consider this to be A Good Thing. It's the sign of a quality codex. What we've all desperately wanted for so long. Time to celebrate!

 

But the flip side is this: Don't be so quick to dismiss so many units. Strike Squads useless compared to Purifiers? Emphatically NO. It all comes down to the list build. There are army lists where taking Purifiers would be a mistake and Strikeknights would be the superior choice.

 

It's all about context. There are very few hard and fast "Truths" about the quality of units in the codex.

'Warp Quake' is highly overrated. Sure Daemons and drop pod lists hate you, but Daemons already get tabled hard by our army, and drop pod lists get annhilated by Heavy mode psycannon and storm bolter, not to mention counter-charging them.

I disagree. Didn't we all love mystics in the previous DH codex incarnation? Warp Quake is actually far more useful and potent. It forced my test game opponent to deploy his assault units quite far away and I got to shoot them down as a result.

 

There's lots of deep striking units in play in most army books, and many many common army builds. How many of us enjoy sternguard dropping down on top of our terminators and plasma/melta gunning them down to slag? :cuss I think you will be happy to have that power around more often than not.

[Valerian]

Val, you could always stick the Purifiers into Stormravens. ;)

 

And Deep Strike them, as the 'Ravens have DS!

 

Now, if only we got locator beacons... :/

 

I will probably get a Stormraven, but at 205 each, I certainly won't be able to include multiple ones (without sacrificing elsewhere in the army). Ultimately, I think I'll really just have to keep playing around until I find the list, theme, and play style that I want to stick with.

 

V

[Wildfire]

I cannot adequately describe how limited this thinking is. Morticon, a B&C BA forum mod, has been staying with me at my house since Adepticon and we have gone absolutely ape ;) with GK army builds. Only a few have featured a GM. So far, none have featured Draigo and Crowe.

 

I've been playing around with lists as well, and I'm at the same place. Most of my ideas center around Coteaz, as GK are of limited interest to me, but the GK lists I have made all center around Strike Squads. These ultra-elite lists everyone keeps coming up with seem to me to suffer from the same problems that Deathwing does. Purifiers don't even have the 2+/5++ of termies.

[BrotherWasted]

They don't need it. They have twice the bodies and the guns to make up for that.