Vindicare Assassin: Tank Hunter Extraordinaire?

[Techmarine Harkus]

I’m sure something to this effect has been mentioned before, but I’ve not seen a thread about it specifically so I thought I’d post it up for people to consider.

Obviously at base value the Turbo Penetrator round is clearly capable of harming a tank, with 4D6 ap. A little further examination reveals that it is far more than capable of harming a tank, but in fact unbelievable good at it.

 

First off, as sniper weapons, the shot is treated as strength 3. After that you get your 4D6 (average roll of 12 (corrected to 14 below)) and then an extra D3 for any 6s (since snipers have rending). This gives you an average roll of 15 (17 if your maths is correct) even without any 6s. Then there is the fact that both the pistol and the rifle are AP1, which gives you +1 on the damage chart. The mathhammer of 4 dice worth of potential rending was too much for me (to be bothered with), but ignoring rending the probability of damaging a vehicle are 84% once you’ve hit and 76% of all shots will penetrate.

It’s worth mentioning also, that rolls to hit at BS8 are 2+ followed by 4+ on a failure, which gives the Vindicare about a 90% chance to hit anything he cares to point his gun at, cover saves notwithstanding.

 

Obviously the best odds for destroying a vehicle you can get are 50%, since with AP 1, 4+ is a destroyed result on the damage chart. Taking everything bar rending into account, the turbo penetrator round has about a 42% chance of destroying its target if it is AV14. As AV goes down (or you include rending into your calculations), so does the chance to destroy tend to 50%. The worst roll possible that still includes a rending hit (6,1,1,1 then 1 on the D3) still results in a 13 total, which is a reasonable example of how rending makes a big difference. There is a 52% of rolling one or more 6s.

 

With the main factor being the 4D6 he is perfectly capable of a dismal 7, but at the other end of the scale, 39 is a pefect shot. Even then, it will still only result in +1 to the damage chart for being AP1. The average result is far within the penetrate end of the scale however. Ignoring Apocalpyse strength D weapons, the turbo penetrator round is the most powerful anti-tank shot in the game.

 

So, who else thinks that a Vindicare may well be the perfect solution of the GKs lack of AT weapons? I definitely want to try one out in an AT role.

[biglou666]

When I read his new rules, I ordered him immediately. they say in his fluff that he is a good assasin, but as you mention, he is in fact better at going after tanks. In other words, yes he is the solution to our lack of AT. My only wish is that I could field 2 of them :P

[Darkchild130]

With 4d6 I think your average would be 14 not twelve.

 

I'm only basing this on the highest probable number rolled with 2 dice is 7, it makes sense to me that with 4d6 you will get 14 most of the time.

 

I'm no good at maths so correct me if im wrong.

 

Darkchild

[Techmarine Harkus]

@ Darkchild130

 

Of course, you are right. The rest of the post is numbers either I or program has calculated earlier on, wheras the average roll thing was just something I plucked (incorectly) from the top of my head when I was writing the post. So the average result isn't 15 its 17. Even that simple fact reveals the potency of turbo penetrator. I falsely considerd 3 to be the average roll of a die, when of course its 3.5. I'll leave the original innacuracies in so that your post dosen't appear foolish when of course it was bang on.

 

 

I also didn't mention open topped vehicles, so I will take this opportunity... They are screwed. Simple as. Of course any capable of moving flat out for a 4+ cover save will probably be ok, but otherwise its a destroyed result on the damage chart on a 3+. Thought I best get this in before someone says '4+ isn't the best roll to destroy a tank possible'.

[Hypareal]

Gentleman, I'm at work and I have not my codex with me. Do I need Inquisitor as HQ when I want to play Vindi Assassin?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No, that no longer applies.

[Darkchild130]

Thanks! I never usually participate in maths discussions :D

 

My main plan for my vindicare is to pop off vehicles, though i need to buy him first (havent had one in years).

I initially wanted him as a squad sgt/special/heavy weapon killer, but rapidly realised his ridiculous AT potential.

 

Darkchild

[Hypareal]

No, that no longer applies.

 

Thank you kind Sir, I'm going to order one asap. :D

[Ashe Darke]

I have 2 types of anti-tank in my list. The Dreads of Doom with their 4 S8 re-rolling hits autocannons and the Vindicare. So far the Dreads have left me far more impressed than the Vindicare.

 

First game the Vindicare died on Turn 1. The 2nd game he killed some Eldar and scared a Wraith Lord. 3rd game he took out some heavy weapons which was actually pretty handy. The 4th game was DoW and getting him somewhere useful took a long time so all he managed to do was kill an Icon Bearer and take a wound off a Blood Thirster.

 

The Dreads, albeit more expensive just hammered the crap out of everything, tanks, monstrous creatures, infantry units. It was brutal.

 

So yeah the Vindicare has a lot of work to do if it's gonna impress me, at least as much as the Dreads.

[Darkchild130]

I have 2 types of anti-tank in my list. The Dreads of Doom with their 4 S8 re-rolling hits autocannons and the Vindicare. So far the Dreads have left me far more impressed than the Vindicare.

 

First game the Vindicare died on Turn 1. The 2nd game he killed some Eldar and scared a Wraith Lord. 3rd game he took out some heavy weapons which was actually pretty handy. The 4th game was DoW and getting him somewhere useful took a long time so all he managed to do was kill an Icon Bearer and take a wound off a Blood Thirster.

 

This is what imediately jumps out to me as his primary role, tbh the vehicle killer thing is something i really hope works, but as my (currently theoretical) list also contains x2 aforementioned Rifleman dreads with psybolts, i dont really care if it doesnt!

 

Darkchild

[Hypareal]

I have 2 types of anti-tank in my list. The Dreads of Doom with their 4 S8 re-rolling hits autocannons and the Vindicare. So far the Dreads have left me far more impressed than the Vindicare.

 

First game the Vindicare died on Turn 1. The 2nd game he killed some Eldar and scared a Wraith Lord. 3rd game he took out some heavy weapons which was actually pretty handy. The 4th game was DoW and getting him somewhere useful took a long time so all he managed to do was kill an Icon Bearer and take a wound off a Blood Thirster.

 

The Dreads, albeit more expensive just hammered the crap out of everything, tanks, monstrous creatures, infantry units. It was brutal.

 

So yeah the Vindicare has a lot of work to do if it's gonna impress me.

 

I believe its all about dices, I have 2 Assault Cannons with psybolt on my LRC and they sucked 4 games I was more lucky with DK or Purgation squad than assault cannons, I have to give a shot that assassin

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No, that no longer applies.

 

Thank you kind Sir, I'm going to order one asap. :D

 

It's an excellent choice, even if you ignore the rules and only look at the model.

[Ashe Darke]

I have 2 types of anti-tank in my list. The Dreads of Doom with their 4 S8 re-rolling hits autocannons and the Vindicare. So far the Dreads have left me far more impressed than the Vindicare.

 

First game the Vindicare died on Turn 1. The 2nd game he killed some Eldar and scared a Wraith Lord. 3rd game he took out some heavy weapons which was actually pretty handy. The 4th game was DoW and getting him somewhere useful took a long time so all he managed to do was kill an Icon Bearer and take a wound off a Blood Thirster.

 

This is what imediately jumps out to me as his primary role, tbh the vehicle killer thing is something i really hope works, but as my (currently theoretical) list also contains x2 aforementioned Rifleman dreads with psybolts, i dont really care if it doesnt!

 

Darkchild

First turn he popped a Missile Launcher which meant the Tactical Squad at the back of the board was useless now and my Rhinos were a lot safer. The next kill was a Plasma Cannon and at this point my guys were out in the open. Finally he killed a Predator husk, it was kill points so he got me another one. This is his best performance. I'm gonna keep plugging away, he did have some bad luck against a Demolisher where I got 13 to penetrate. Then he took a Punisher to the face, for the 2nd time in his career. Grrr!

[Darkchild130]

I think the Assassin's (any of them) biggest weakness is the fact that they are assassins, namely they are bullet magnets as everyone knows what they are.

 

Hopefully this will not be to much of an issue with my army as I'm building them as Deathwatch, the enemy will only see a sea of black!

 

But seriously, in my experience (I used to always take at least one assassin up til the start of 5th ed) assassins are all or nothing units.

They tend to either suck balls or dominate whatever you point them at.

 

Darkchild

[Techmarine Harkus]

I'm rather hoping between Stealth and Infiltrate I can get a Vindicare in a nice 3+ cover save spot with a good field of view. I also want to run a list with a Techmarine in with Orbital Bombardment (for fun more than anythong) so thats a possibility of a 2+ coversave if the lay of the terrain suits. Next thursday I'll be playing a game with my Ultramarines v my mates GKs, so I'll let you know how his Vindicare does if this thread is still going strong by then.

 

I'm pretty excited to see how it actually turns out. Most peoples down points specifically to the Vindicare are that he will probably only kill a few guys a game. Apart from the fact that those few kills are probably going to be heavy weapons and power weapon wielding models that can hurt your other troops, his AT capability means that instead of a few guys, he could quite probably take 2-3 tanks out in one game with a little luck. 1-2 if you're not lucky.

 

I have just finished chopping up some spare dreadnought arms (I have 4 dreads now) and splicing with an quad gun turret to make my first Rifleman Dread... I'm not sure if I will want a second because of points restrictions but on paper 4 strength 8 shots with rerolls to hit are clearly pretty good at AT work, thought struggling at AV14. For similar points cost, the dread might be a better option, given his liklihoot of survival compared to an assassin, but when you think about it, one of each makes sense. My dreads tend to die from those 'just in case' heavy weapons that aren't going to scratch a Landraider or similar. The Vindicare is perfect for taking down those guns before they get a chance to fire at the dread, though granted only 1 a turn. Two dreads however could get killed before they even managed to whittle down 1 squad to eliminate it's heavy weapon.

[Roesor]

Funnily enough I somehow already had two, how fun. Can't wait till my Grey Knights/Inquisition force is up so can use in normal games, in apoc he's a bit limited by the 36 range I found.

[Red Lost Soldier]

Played a few games with him, and his biggest problem is cover saves. With no more spy mask most things he shoots at get a 4+ save in any case, even vehicles. Also the loss of night fight against him I find him dying a great more, even with stealth. I thought S8 was going to be the death of him but massed fire is killing my guy off quicker these days.

 

Although the first game with him he missed (yes even with the re roll) first turn then failed to penetrate a Razorback second turn. Aberrant dice rolls to be sure, more play testing required.

[Zagman]

I've played against the vindicare in four games so far, as I am running a Pure GK army. In no game did the assassin live past turn 2. He has fared well in the sense that I was forced to devote alot of firepower towards him each game. His best showing bagged him a land raider and pulled two wounds of Mephiston before being summarily squashed by a very angy Mephy.

 

If I weren't currently running a DriagoWing list I would most definitely be using the Vindicare Assassin.

[Ashe Darke]

I have just finished chopping up some spare dreadnought arms (I have 4 dreads now) and splicing with an quad gun turret to make my first Rifleman Dread... I'm not sure if I will want a second because of points restrictions but on paper 4 strength 8 shots with rerolls to hit are clearly pretty good at AT work, thought struggling at AV14. For similar points cost, the dread might be a better option, given his liklihoot of survival compared to an assassin, but when you think about it, one of each makes sense. My dreads tend to die from those 'just in case' heavy weapons that aren't going to scratch a Landraider or similar. The Vindicare is perfect for taking down those guns before they get a chance to fire at the dread, though granted only 1 a turn. Two dreads however could get killed before they even managed to whittle down 1 squad to eliminate it's heavy weapon.

Personally I think maxing out of the Dreads is a must. In all the games I've played so far very few tanks have managed to live or not get turned into husks. Even in a 500pt game where I had 2 Dreads and the Vindicare against a Demolisher, a Punisher and a Chimera full of Vets, the Dreads did all the work. Standing in side arc meant that 6s penetrate which is how the Punisher died and the Demolisher was glanced into uselessness. And this is just against tanks. I played a Daemon army and on their own they killed a Soul Grinder, Blood Thirster, Daemon Prince and 3 Blood Crushers. Land Raiders will be problematic which is where the Assassin or S10 Hammers come in (in my list anyway) but still 12 S8 shots should at least glance a Raider, maybe get a can't move or shoot, hopefully an immobilised result. Anyway the Dreads are far more versatile in what they can kill.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

The Vindicare Assasin is now worth the points and choice to take him, he can kill off vehicles, characters or pesky heavy weapons at leisure.

Im just sad that im selling of both of mine, and all the other assasins as well as all the Inquisitors i collected (Rex and Cortaez) as i dont use them anymore. Being a player of Pure SoB, and doubting they will be involved in future SoB codex (thankfully, as they should never have to begin with).

I always thought the Vindicare was a awesome mini, now with the new rules he really is worth it.

 

Good luck to all GK/Inquisitor forces using him

[KnowThyEnemy]

not to be a stickler for math, but the average is between 14 and 16 for 4D6. you have an equal probability to roll an 8 as you do a 7 (4 combinations for both :)). besides that, i agree with the dreads being the first word in AT, but when you run out of tanks to shoot, itll take you a while to chew through that mob of boys to get that nob with the power claw. my 2k all comers list im trying out next weekend will be using 5 rifledreads and mr. black, just to be extra sure :D

[KnowThyEnemy]

i retract my previous probability statement. by eliminating the ability to roll a 1, 8 has a slightly less probability to roll than a 7 despite the same number of combinations. mathammer end

[Zagman]

not to be a stickler for math, but the average is between 14 and 16 for 4D6. you have an equal probability to roll an 8 as you do a 7 (4 combinations for both :)). besides that, i agree with the dreads being the first word in AT, but when you run out of tanks to shoot, itll take you a while to chew through that mob of boys to get that nob with the power claw. my 2k all comers list im trying out next weekend will be using 5 rifledreads and mr. black, just to be extra sure ;)

 

The average of 4d6 is 14. Not between. Is 14.

[Brother Valerius]

You also don't need to roll 14, you need to roll 12 (4d6+S3). I did a table last night showing all the possible permutations of 4d6, and found that roughly 75% of the time you are going to roll 12 or better. I also forgot to take rending into account (and was frankly too lazy to re-do the table, as it's rather tedious to make), but that is only going to make your roll better, so it's still >75% chance to pen AV14

[elithren]

Bare in mind, the Monolith still is the beast of all AV14 machines and the vindicare still cant touch it since the 4d6 would be considered extra dice onto it's strength 3 sniper shot.