On Fighting Eldar...

[Azarias]

Hello,

 

I have vicariously haunted these forums for a long time as a way of getting a fix for a hobby I had left aside for a few years. Now, however, a friend has spurred me into rejoining Chaos, and we have weekly games. Basically, it's been 750 points, his Eldar versus my Chaos (generally Word Bearers with a splash of Khorne). Only now, in preparation for the summer, we've been proxying a fair bit - I've experimented with Nurgle and so forth - to see what we're to pick up. Now, he's gained a deep and abiding love for Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, and that space-cougar with hair that looks like she thinks electrical sockets are lollipops Jain Zar, and I'm wondering about tried and true counters and so forth.

 

I know Kharne's a lovely choice, and having him mow through an entire squad of guardians in two turns was a lovely moment. A squad of noise marines charging into close combat with the Howling Banshees was fun, yet somewhat pointless given that Berzerkers, with the furious charge rule, strike just as quickly. Unless I'm missing something crucial, which is likely given I stopped playing five years ago, only picked up the habit recently, and am going through awkward moments where I have to re-learn the rules. Yet I'm still exploring my options.

 

...But I'm 2-3, and need something good by this Tuesday. Can't let the haughty little space-elf win two weeks in a row. Any suggestions?

[DarkGuard]

OK then, the one thing you need to understand about Eldar is that it is a specialist army. Each of their units are specialised at doing one role in the army, and they therefore excel in that given role. Fire Dragons are some of the best tank busters in the game, Dire Avengers excel at cutting down light infantry, Dark Reapers are fantastic at long-range firepower, Howling Banshees are some of the best power armour killers in the game. The list goes on. However, speciality comes at a cost, and that cost is diversity. Howling Banshees may be amazing in combat, but they suck at shooting. Likewise, Dark Reapers might rock at shooting but suck in combat. Therefore, the counter to an Eldar unit is that which it doesn't specialise in.

 

Let me elaborate. In taking down Howling Banshees, it's best that you don't seek to deal with them in combat. Instead, look to get them in the open and take them apart with shooting. With an armour save of 4+ then things like heavy bolters and autocannons, which kill them on 2s is perhaps best, but even the humble bolter at rapid fire range can put a dent in that unit, wounding them on 3s with them only getting a 4+. Perhaps have an assault unit handy nearby to tie up a depleted unit and protect your shooting squads.

 

Warp Spiders are the reverse. They're good at shooting, with high strength guns, but get them in combat and they're main threat is negated, that of shooting. Sure that power armour may be hard to take out, but it's easier for you to wound them than them to wound you.

 

With Eldar the game turns into rock, paper, scissors, you just need to make sure you're winning. The one thing you will want is long-ranged anti-tank to make your life easier, as Eldar can be very vast and even durable while in transports.

[Hellios]

I know Kharne's a lovely choice, and having him mow through an entire squad of guardians in two turns was a lovely moment. A squad of noise marines charging into close combat with the Howling Banshees was fun, yet somewhat pointless given that Berzerkers, with the furious charge rule, strike just as quickly. Unless I'm missing something crucial, which is likely given I stopped playing five years ago, only picked up the habit recently, and am going through awkward moments where I have to re-learn the rules. Yet I'm still exploring my options.

 

Just want to check that you know even if you charge with noise marines or Khorne Berserkers that howling banshees will strike first at I10 for the first round of combat regardless of who intiates it. After that they drop back down to normal intiative.

 

Ok... so things to think about with Eldar... Armour only goes as high as 12 and most armour saves are no better than 4+ (Jetbikes of various types, scorpions, warp spiders, dark reapers, wraith units (guard/lord) and HQs being the exception. Although Pathfinders can get 2+ cover saves... but it is no help against flamers or in combat!

 

Sooo Auto-cannons are pretty good at taking eldar vehicles (due to cover saves, holofields and other such junk they can be hard to destroy but even if you can stop them in one or more capacity (stun, immobilise or destroy their weapons) you give them far less options. Auto-cannons also ignore the armour of a lot of units... so that is another good thing.

 

Ok so you can't stop the psychic powers and if he takes a farseer with runes of warding you basically can't get your own powers off so don't worry about that... If you find he uses a lot of howling banshees plague marines (remember rhinos for your troops!) might be a good way to go... Sure they ignore your feel no pain and you go last (but you pretty much go last anyway and shouldn't rely on surviving more than one round of assault against a good eldar player) but they will find that T5 hard to hurt even if you are doomed and the same goes with dire avengers with T5 and FNP even guided bladestorm on a doomed unit is going to have some trouble.

 

Winged daemon princes with the MoN or MoT should also give him something to shoot at and he won't enjoy it if you get in combat.

 

If he has shooty units in cover at the back of the board such as guardians (maybe in the open with conceal?), pathfinders, weapon platforms or dark reapers then a squad of chosen with flamers and maybe a power weapon/fist could cause some trouble.

 

The key with eldar as has been mentioned is keep your force tight and don't let them pick and choose what they attack, either force them to come at you (not so easy with a chaos force) or push on into them giving them no breathing space, shoot the close combat aspects and get into combat with the shooty aspects.

[DarkGuard]

Sooo Auto-cannons are pretty good at taking eldar vehicles (due to cover saves, holofields and other such junk they can be hard to destroy but even if you can stop them in one or more capacity (stun, immobilise or destroy their weapons) you give them far less options. Auto-cannons also ignore the armour of a lot of units... so that is another good thing.

 

I agree with everything except this. Autocannons are awful, I repeat awful at taking down most Eldar vehicles. Most Eldar tanks have a front and side armour of 12, and they're not likely to reveal their rear armour of 10. What does this mean for autocannons? It means that we glance on 5s and pen on 6s, doesn't sound so bad. But in practise, it is bad. In my experience, missile launchers are normally the best weapon for Eldar tanks, as they're S8 anyway when targetting a Wave Serpent's holo-field, and glance on a 4 and pen on 5, which is crucial. With autocannons you're relying on luck way too much, and normally my autocannons stun or shake Eldar tanks. Nearly all Eldar tanks have Spirit Stones so we'll make that shake then. All I'm doing is stopping them from shooting. Missile launchers, however, have had a greater success rate against Eldar because of that extra point of strength.

 

So basically, autocannons are best for AV10-11, missile launchers best for AV11-12, and melta for AV13-14. So for Eldar, you want to load up on those missile launchers if you want to stop those tanks.

[Hellios]

Sooo Auto-cannons are pretty good at taking eldar vehicles (due to cover saves, holofields and other such junk they can be hard to destroy but even if you can stop them in one or more capacity (stun, immobilise or destroy their weapons) you give them far less options. Auto-cannons also ignore the armour of a lot of units... so that is another good thing.

 

I agree with everything except this. Autocannons are awful, I repeat awful at taking down most Eldar vehicles. Most Eldar tanks have a front and side armour of 12, and they're not likely to reveal their rear armour of 10. What does this mean for autocannons? It means that we glance on 5s and pen on 6s, doesn't sound so bad. But in practise, it is bad. In my experience, missile launchers are normally the best weapon for Eldar tanks, as they're S8 anyway when targetting a Wave Serpent's holo-field, and glance on a 4 and pen on 5, which is crucial. With autocannons you're relying on luck way too much, and normally my autocannons stun or shake Eldar tanks. Nearly all Eldar tanks have Spirit Stones so we'll make that shake then. All I'm doing is stopping them from shooting. Missile launchers, however, have had a greater success rate against Eldar because of that extra point of strength.

 

So basically, autocannons are best for AV10-11, missile launchers best for AV11-12, and melta for AV13-14. So for Eldar, you want to load up on those missile launchers if you want to stop those tanks.

 

I respect your oppinion, but disagree and this is from my oppinion as an Eldar player (which dosen't make it any more valid) but quantity of shots is so important when people have stupid holofields...

 

Now assuming I'm firing at the same target with 10 missile launchers or 10 auto-cannons with or without a 4+ cover save I'll get roughly the same number of pens... however in both cases the auto-cannons will get twice as many glancing hits as the missile launcher gets glancing hits... Then you add in the holofield where you have a good chance of getting a low role with a high roll and so getting more rolls (even if glancing) increases the chances of rolling two dice with either 5s or 6s at the same time and even when glancing if you can roll a double 6 then immobilised is a pretty good result against eldar... You could argue that Shaken is better than weapon destroyed against most eldar vehicles (except maybe the Fireprism) and as you mentioned in most cases you won't get stunned due to spirit stones... However shaken is very likely regardless so you want to maximise your chances of rolling something other than shaken or stunned... AP1 weapons are great but rather limited in all marine armies and against the dedicated transports of the eldar army you don't get 2d6 armour pen... and ideally being within 12 (standard meltagun) isn't where you want to be when you've just blown up the transport of some dire avengers or howling banshees unless you are hoping they will get pinned or you have something else to shoot them with.

[DarkGuard]

I respect your oppinion, but disagree and this is from my oppinion as an Eldar player (which dosen't make it any more valid) but quantity of shots is so important when people have stupid holofields...

 

Now assuming I'm firing at the same target with 10 missile launchers or 10 auto-cannons with or without a 4+ cover save I'll get roughly the same number of pens... however in both cases the auto-cannons will get twice as many glancing hits as the missile launcher gets glancing hits... Then you add in the holofield where you have a good chance of getting a low role with a high roll and so getting more rolls (even if glancing) increases the chances of rolling two dice with either 5s or 6s at the same time and even when glancing if you can roll a double 6 then immobilised is a pretty good result against eldar... You could argue that Shaken is better than weapon destroyed against most eldar vehicles (except maybe the Fireprism) and as you mentioned in most cases you won't get stunned due to spirit stones... However shaken is very likely regardless so you want to maximise your chances of rolling something other than shaken or stunned... AP1 weapons are great but rather limited in all marine armies and against the dedicated transports of the eldar army you don't get 2d6 armour pen... and ideally being within 12 (standard meltagun) isn't where you want to be when you've just blown up the transport of some dire avengers or howling banshees unless you are hoping they will get pinned or you have something else to shoot them with.

 

The one thing wrong about that example is the number of weapons you're using. Of course when you're comparing 10 autocannons (20 S7 shots) and 10 missile launchers (10 S8 shots) the autocannons will come on top. My comment was coming from having played Mechdar a bit with my Rifleman Dreads so that's only 8 S7 shots a turn, and they struggled. When I later used a squadron of Typhoons they were fine with taking out Eldar tanks, and that was 4 S8 shots.

 

I respect your views, and agree that most of the time autocannons are better than missile launchers for rate of fire. I myself used to think that autocannons would be fine against AV12. However, having used autocannons against Dreads, Eldar transports etc I did find them to be lacking, and so I'm now trying to think of a way to get my Typhoons in my list alongside my Rifleman and Vindicators. With the points limit at the store going up to 1750pts though this shouldn't be too hard now :cuss.

[Hellios]

I respect your views, and agree that most of the time autocannons are better than missile launchers for rate of fire. I myself used to think that autocannons would be fine against AV12. However, having used autocannons against Dreads, Eldar transports etc I did find them to be lacking, and so I'm now trying to think of a way to get my Typhoons in my list alongside my Rifleman and Vindicators. With the points limit at the store going up to 1750pts though this shouldn't be too hard now :cuss.

 

Just because you have done better dosen't mean that your doing what statistically they should... even at a lower level 8 auto cannon shots should have twice as many hits as missile shots... auto-cannons having twice as many hits should roll twice as many 4s 5s and 6s (Obviously the rolls are random and could be anything but the missiles are the same)... the auto-cannons 6s are countered by the missiles adding 5s and 6s together (pens) while the auto-cannon still has twice as many glances and its 4s do nothing... Shot for shot the missile launcher is better but you should get more autocannon shots (and remember chaos can get 24 auto-cannon shots from their heavy support)...

 

Oh and let me compare the auto-cannon to the ork deffgun... pretty much the same as the auto-cannon except the deffgun is D3 shots, they can be taken in greater numbers but are less likely to hit... My shooty Ork list all but tabled a mechanised 1,500pt Eldar army with one turn of shooting! Both missiles and auto-cannons are good aginst eldar... lascannons are better than missile launchers but cost a lot more... chaos space marines don't have typhoons or cylone missile launchers... Chaos dreads can't be trusted... 2 missile launcher shots or 4 auto-cannon shots if it rages isn't bad... unless it shoots you... Oblits are always a good choice but they can't use missile launchers or auto-cannons (lascannons or plasma guns depending on how close the tank is) and you are limited to 9 at most... Chaos Space marines tend to be more mobile like grey hunters and less likely to be static like tactical marines... and if you want to use a squad to sit back and shoot take havocs... most cult units can't take heavy weapons... although you have the blast master with noise marines... but for 30/40pts... it costs too much!.

 

So as oblits have been covered that leaves us with Havocs... 4 missiles or 4 auto-cannons? and 3 units can be taken and they can mix and match (not the worse idea in the world... missiles are certainly better against wraith units)... statistically the auto-cannons will do better against eldar vehicles. Maybe two squads of havos with 4 auto-cannons each giving 16 shots and a single squad with 4 missile launchers or maybe 1 squad with 4 auto-cannons and two with two auto-cannons and two missile launchers...

[Grey Mage]

Hello,

 

I have vicariously haunted these forums for a long time as a way of getting a fix for a hobby I had left aside for a few years. Now, however, a friend has spurred me into rejoining Chaos, and we have weekly games. Basically, it's been 750 points, his Eldar versus my Chaos (generally Word Bearers with a splash of Khorne). Only now, in preparation for the summer, we've been proxying a fair bit - I've experimented with Nurgle and so forth - to see what we're to pick up. Now, he's gained a deep and abiding love for Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, and that space-cougar with hair that looks like she thinks electrical sockets are lollipops Jain Zar, and I'm wondering about tried and true counters and so forth.

 

I know Kharne's a lovely choice, and having him mow through an entire squad of guardians in two turns was a lovely moment. A squad of noise marines charging into close combat with the Howling Banshees was fun, yet somewhat pointless given that Berzerkers, with the furious charge rule, strike just as quickly. Unless I'm missing something crucial, which is likely given I stopped playing five years ago, only picked up the habit recently, and am going through awkward moments where I have to re-learn the rules. Yet I'm still exploring my options.

 

...But I'm 2-3, and need something good by this Tuesday. Can't let the haughty little space-elf win two weeks in a row. Any suggestions?

Lets go over the units hes favoring:

 

Howling banshees- Always strike at I10. Always. Often with counter-attack. Plague Marines are great because T5 is wounded on a 6+, but bad in that any wounds are in fact... dead. On a different point Rubric Marines have a 4+ invulnerable save, but are wounded twice as often with their T4, this mathematically cancels itself out.... but it really comes down to wether you prefer to roll a save or make it hard for your opponent to roll a wound. They are fleet, but few eldar players will but their T3 4+ hides out in the open without a transport.

 

So... speaking of transports. I suggest a squad of havocs with missile launchers and a defiler for your heavy support options. Obliterators are fodder vs a good eldar player, even if they do provide a good offense- AV 13 is where many eldar players start to struggle and havocs have cheap ablative wounds.

 

Warp Spiders- at 22pts a model these guys are expensive. S6 guns without rending, short range, and limited CC ability. Theyll spam you with high strength hits, hope you fail an armor save *go FNP!* and then charge in so the exarch can get some slashes in with his 5 power weapon attacks. Plague marines are these guys worst night mare- look for them to go tank hunting if you keep using that unit, or dissapear from his list entirely.

 

Jain Zar the storm of silence is a :cuss. Furious charge on banshees is extremely mean, and her own combat stats are impressive in and of themselves. Outside of units with complete stormshields I dont expect theres a single PA unit in the game that would survive a charge by this unit- maybe a maxed out crusader unit, wich would probly flee and be caught anyways. Shell be with the banshees, and theres good news and bad news:

 

Good news: She has no invulnerable save and is T4. Bad news: Phoenix Lords, all of them, have eternal warrior. So hit her squad with the shells from your defiler, and make them dissapear. Yes, this will require them to often be removed from a transport in order to work, but such is life- and thats why you brought plasmaguns and missile launchers right?

 

Hell need scoring units- Rangers with their 2+ cover saves (combi-flamer is a nice touch if you start seeing these) have a good potential damage with alot of ways to ignore armor and FNP- nurgle daemon princes will die after a couple turns of their fire. Keep him out of LOS if you run one, unless you think you can get into combat the next turn.

 

Gaurdians- Gaurdians suck. Similar to gaurdsmen with 12" assault 2 bolters.... at half again the price. Meh. Few people can make this unit work, if you see them light them up with bolter fire.

 

Gaurdian Jetbikes- expensive models are the reason you dont see alot of these on the field- same damage output as gaurdians, but much tougher and faster. Usually youll see a small unit of these guys, perhaps with a shuriken cannon for tank hunting, prepped to turbo-boost onto objectives in the late game. Hit them with indirect fire from a defiler and theyll vanish. If its a close game it might be worth it to redirect a unit of teleporting terminators to take them out.

 

Dire Avengers- the bread and butter of most eldar lists. 18" range on their catapults, viscious bladestorms, and relatively cheap compared to other aspect warriors. Youve probly seen them- you can take them out with bolter fire, or in CC, or frag them with missile launchers. Alot of eldar players, fed up with being killed, just put a minimum size squad of these in a transport to make it scoring, and then fly the tank around. Kill the tank quickly and the occupants will die even faster.

[DarkGuard]

I respect your views, and agree that most of the time autocannons are better than missile launchers for rate of fire. I myself used to think that autocannons would be fine against AV12. However, having used autocannons against Dreads, Eldar transports etc I did find them to be lacking, and so I'm now trying to think of a way to get my Typhoons in my list alongside my Rifleman and Vindicators. With the points limit at the store going up to 1750pts though this shouldn't be too hard now :tu:.

 

Just because you have done better dosen't mean that your doing what statistically they should... even at a lower level 8 auto cannon shots should have twice as many hits as missile shots... auto-cannons having twice as many hits should roll twice as many 4s 5s and 6s (Obviously the rolls are random and could be anything but the missiles are the same)... the auto-cannons 6s are countered by the missiles adding 5s and 6s together (pens) while the auto-cannon still has twice as many glances and its 4s do nothing... Shot for shot the missile launcher is better but you should get more autocannon shots (and remember chaos can get 24 auto-cannon shots from their heavy support)...

 

I understand what you're saying because I believed in it too. All I'm saying is that there is a difference between theory and practise. In theory you are correct, 8 autocannon shots should probably do better than 4 missile launcher shots, especially if they are twin-linked (like mine). In practise they do do better, against AV10-AV11 thanks to higher rate of fire and better accuracy. In practise though, AV12 is too tough for S7, with only one result giving you a pen hit which is what you want as it's hard to stun lock Eldar. Yes 8 TL-AC shots will probably do as well than 4 ML shots in theory. But in practise that's using both of my Rifleman on one vehicle, I'd much rather have them target separate vehicles. So in the end, my missile launchers do better against Eldar while my autocannons don't.

 

This is isn't my theorizing about it, or just commenting on one game. This is me reflecting my experiences after multiple games against Eldar and other AV12 units where I've used my Rifleman Dreads and experience has taught me that autocannons will struggle against AV12 in sensible numbers, ie.1 or 2 per unit, not 10. Of course, I'll continue to use autocannons because I play an all comer list, and it's handy that they do stuff to Eldar vehicles. However, against AV12 they don't quite compare to missile launchers, even with their higher rate of fire and in some cases, the increased accuracy given by twin-linked.

 

As a side note, what Grey Mage says about the Eldar is very good stuff and very useful. I believe he plays extensively with Eldar so I'd pay attention to what he says :D.

[Hellios]

I respect your views, and agree that most of the time autocannons are better than missile launchers for rate of fire. I myself used to think that autocannons would be fine against AV12. However, having used autocannons against Dreads, Eldar transports etc I did find them to be lacking, and so I'm now trying to think of a way to get my Typhoons in my list alongside my Rifleman and Vindicators. With the points limit at the store going up to 1750pts though this shouldn't be too hard now :D.

 

Just because you have done better dosen't mean that your doing what statistically they should... even at a lower level 8 auto cannon shots should have twice as many hits as missile shots... auto-cannons having twice as many hits should roll twice as many 4s 5s and 6s (Obviously the rolls are random and could be anything but the missiles are the same)... the auto-cannons 6s are countered by the missiles adding 5s and 6s together (pens) while the auto-cannon still has twice as many glances and its 4s do nothing... Shot for shot the missile launcher is better but you should get more autocannon shots (and remember chaos can get 24 auto-cannon shots from their heavy support)...

 

I understand what you're saying because I believed in it too. All I'm saying is that there is a difference between theory and practise. In theory you are correct, 8 autocannon shots should probably do better than 4 missile launcher shots, especially if they are twin-linked (like mine). In practise they do do better, against AV10-AV11 thanks to higher rate of fire and better accuracy. In practise though, AV12 is too tough for S7, with only one result giving you a pen hit which is what you want as it's hard to stun lock Eldar. Yes 8 TL-AC shots will probably do as well than 4 ML shots in theory. But in practise that's using both of my Rifleman on one vehicle, I'd much rather have them target separate vehicles. So in the end, my missile launchers do better against Eldar while my autocannons don't.

 

 

Ok Well mine is from collecting eldar for 15 years and having over 15k worth of eldar with no super-heavies and also playing against Eldar numerous times with various armies including the orks I mentioned before who wiped out a mech eldar army in one turn... mainly using S7 weapons in practise AV12 isn't too hard for S7 otherwise I would cry everytime I come across a guard Chimera wall... hell I've had to use massed S6 shots (Eldar scatter lasers) to help defeat chimera wall lists because the board was so full of guard I couldn't get onto the flanks... (woo for war walkers!... they can get onto the flanks...)

 

My experiance shows me Auto-cannons can eat eldar transports and I would imagine this guy isn't going to be using rifleman dreds as a chaos player... if he wants missiles he needs havocs and I still think auto-cannon havocs are better... unlike space marines chaos don't have mobile rapid firing missiles like the typhoon and cyclone missile launchers and with the same range neither weapon is harder to apply in practise... so it basically comes down to numbers and if the dice were perfect (which naturally they are not) auto-cannons would do better... and In my experiance do do better... Typhoons and Long fangs with missiles are not bad choices for some armies but chaos has neither!

[DarkGuard]

It looks like we're going to have agree to disagree about this then. Maybe I'm just incredibly unlucky with my autocannons, but for me they've generally not been amazing against AV12. If they've worked for you then great.

 

As for Chaos, no, they don't have the option of choosing units like Typhoons, and autocannons in Havocs are generally a good all-rounder choice. That doesn't mean that they are automatically better than missile launchers in any given situation, and there will be times that missile launchers are better. However, that being said, I'd still outfit with Havocs with autocannons rather than missile launchers because autocannons are a very good all comers choice, especially in large numbers.

 

And I meant no offence and was certainly not questioning your experience. It just appeared to me that most of your previous arguments were based on conjecture and theory as opposed to experience which is what I've been talking from throughout this thread in regards to autocannons. Of course, as you've shown autocannons have worked well against AV12 in your experience, perhaps one day soon mine might start rolling better. They're going to have to as well, with one of my friends using his Eldar again instead of his BA Razorspam.

[Azarias]

Wow, this thread developed a lot more than I thought it would... Thanks for all the tips. I just played the game, and won.

 

I picked a dreadnought to charge in there and keep a few squads or so occupied - worked out great first turn, but I didn't know about the whole witchblade special rule. He charged with a Warlock and stabbed my dreadnought to death. I never thought I'd have to phrase things that way.

 

Another good, though expensive, way to take out a Falcon is five lascannon shots (2 Obliterators, one decked-out Predator). The Predator really shone when I caused a war-walker to explode, taking out half a squad of guardians. Good times. Then it was just wait for him to come to me and shoot 'em down. His Howling Banshee squad barely made it over some dangerous terrain (lost half the unit to that), so my Plague Marines ended up in a shoot-out war with his Warp Spiders. Everything else was taken out by a combination of far too many heavy bolters and a few good Autocannon rounds (Obliterators again). I think he's learned never to bring the battle to me again, which means I'll have to vary my strategy.

 

Thanks for all the help! Looks like I'll be hanging around here for a space.

[Grey Mage]

Interesting- how big was his banshee squad, and did he have anything in the falcon?

[Azarias]

Nothing in the Falcon save for interspersed periods of lascannon fire. Had about eight banshees. I don't quite know what he was thinking - especially since in a previous game he entirely destroyed me by waiting for my rhino to deliver a bunch of Berzerkers up to his line, and then jumping most of the table to unload his banshees into my relatively unprepared rearguard.

[BlkTom]

You got lucky with the Dread... you can't trust those dreads since you have to roll every turn and on a 1 they shoot the closest unit (friend or foe). I have had other Chaos players speak well of the Preds, but since it is a heavy option it takes away from Oblits, but might not be a terrible trade off. Since your only fighting one army (Eldar), you can kinda tweek your army to focus against Eldar, but down that path leads to to darkness. If your getting back into the game, you should strive to make a balanced army that can deal with most foes.

 

The tactic of 4 Rhinos with 7-9 Zerkers with a Champ with a fist is still a solid choice to swarm the Eldar, while your Oblits pound the mech. Two Demon Princes with a mark, wings, and Warptime (if you don't pick Khorn) or maybe Lash can be feared. Deep striking/drop poding Combi weapon Terminators, a Land Raider with lightining Claw Terminators or Plasma/Melta Chosen (in a rhino or a drop pod) to round it out can put a hurt on an Eldar list... and damn near anything else you play against. Don't forget about Vindicators either... but if you take one, your losing Oblits.

 

To be frank, your going down a downward spiral if you make reactionary lists. Don't be afraid to use what you have, just use it well. Your Berzerkers still get a ton of attacks at str 5 if you charge, even if they are Init 1 against the Banshees. If your PF Champ and 2 guys survive with bolt pistols and chain swords on a charge, they still get 4 Str 5 attacks each (4 Str 9 no armor save attacks for the champ). That Banshee squad is gonna be hurt, bad. You also have Bolt Pistols, make sure you shoot first to soften them up to lighten up the sting of those swords. And if they do wipe out your squad, you have 3 more coming...and now he really has nothing left to stop them.

 

If you don't have the figs, np...make due with what you have. If you have the Rhinos, awesome, if not and you got the figs for it... foot slogging larger units of Zerkers or Plague Marines is still an option.

 

Good luck and have fun!