VS Grey Knights

[TheAvengingKnee]

What is a good HQ for fighting Grey Knights? Usually I would use A Libby or Mephiston but that sounds like suicide vs Grey Knights.

 

 

One of my friends is switching to grey knights and I looked through the codex for a while and I'm just not sure what to use, it seems like assaulting them is going to be pointless and relying on plasma cannons would be a bit more risky. I'm hesitant to rely on heavy weapons because of the Red Thirst. So simply any ideas on what may be affective against them?

[Tabgoi]

Pretty much anything other then a librarian would be a good idea against Grey Knights. And what is your issue with heavy weapons and the Red Thirst? It does not force movement in this edition. Our devs are as good as anyone's, well except Space Wolves, but other than them.

[Black_Sky]

A librarian. To counter their psychic powers.

 

If you want something else: a Reclusiarch. the captain's not worth it.

 

Named characters. I wouldn't bring mephiston, he's way to exposed to their force weapons. All other named characters should feel free to kick ass.

[Rybnick]

I'd say that you almost have to have a librarian of some sort on the table (furioso or otherwise), having a chance to stop dangerous psychic powers from 24" out should be pretty valuable. For me the Librarian is a great standby HQ, he has lots of power options to make him useful in pretty much any squad you wedge him into (ie shooty or assaulty) and Shield of Sanguinius has come in handy on several ocassions for me.

[spiros14]

the same as usual when tackling marines- meltas and PF/TH

oh? these are the marines of marine world... then i suggest tanks, especialy the Deep-striking, AV=14 kind, let's see those grey boys fire those storm-bolters at those.

 

++these suggestions have not yet been tested and if a consequence of your actions is Purging, then we take no responsibility of your actions++

[Tabgoi]

Well, if you target them with a librarian he is at -1 leadership, they have other abilities that can drop it by another -4. In addition they can force perils of the warp checks, they have grenades that really do a number on psykers. Basically your librarian is a sitting target against Grey Knights. If you use him only for the psychic hood he will last a bit longer, but really he is mostly free points for the Grey Knights to take. Its pretty sad, but against Grey Knights the only option is to completely hand the psychic field over to them, regardless of what your army is. Space Wolves have an advantage in that their wolf priests are not activating a psychic power in order to counter psychic powers. I would run heavy on chaplains just so you you are forcing more and more saving throws.

[Tabgoi]

the same as usual when tackling marines- meltas and PF/TH

oh? these are the marines of marine world... then i suggest tanks, especialy the Deep-striking, AV=14 kind, let's see those grey boys fire those storm-bolters at those.

 

++these suggestions have not yet been testes and if a consequence of your actions is Purging, then we take no responsibility of your actions++

 

Yeah, except you cannot deep strike within 12 inches of their strike or interceptor squads. If drift takes you there you have an automatic mishap. And if a Grey Knights librarian gets within flame template range his warp rift causes an automatic penetrating hit on any vehicles, regardless of AP.

[Rybnick]

Well, if you target them with a librarian he is at -1 leadership, they have other abilities that can drop it by another -4. In addition they can force perils of the warp checks, they have grenades that really do a number on psykers. Basically your librarian is a sitting target against Grey Knights. If you use him only for the psychic hood he will last a bit longer, but really he is mostly free points for the Grey Knights to take. Its pretty sad, but against Grey Knights the only option is to completely hand the psychic field over to them, regardless of what your army is. Space Wolves have an advantage in that their wolf priests are not activating a psychic power in order to counter psychic powers. I would run heavy on chaplains just so you you are forcing more and more saving throws.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the -LD schenanigans of the GK codex only if the unit targets X unit with the ability. So shooting attacks would have to go off on a 9 (or 6 if the -4LD ability is in play) as opposed to a 10. Also I don't believe this would effect abilities like Might of Heroes, Sanguine Sword, or Unleashed Rage as they target your own troops and not theirs. I don't think the hood testing is limited by the -LD nerf either, but I could be wrong. At any rate 100 points is a pretty modest investment for the ability to shut down some of their powers. I can't count the number of times my hood's have saved me from a power in clutch situation.

 

I think the only psychic defense they have is the same as every other marine army psychic hoods on Librarians, at least I'm pretty sure regular troops don't have hoods. They do have access to some decent psyker toasting wargear, but I haven't read the GK codex well enough yet to be too knowlegable about them. The only one I'm marginally aware of are the psyker missiles that replace bloodstrike missiles on their storm raven, which I think just cause a perils wound on a unit containing a psyker if that unit takes an unsaved wound from said missile.

[Black_Sky]

You are correct.

 

Aegis gives opponent psykers a -1 penalty to leadership, when the power is Targeted at a model with the rule. Buffs, auras and other spells you place on the battlefield (i think blood lance and the wolf one are included, as they just draw a line(no codex with me)) are unaffected.

 

A venerable dread has a 12" aura that gives -4 if you target any aegis model/group within that area instead.

 

The most prominent anti psyker gear is the psyk-out grenades. These reduce initiative to 1 on psykers and daemons, when the GK's charge.

 

Only the librarian carry a hood. There is no special character with one.

 

Mindstrike missiles (and a few other weapons) has the Psi-shock rule: a psyker hit by these suffers from Perils of the Warp.

[Mykra]

What is a good HQ for fighting Grey Knights? Usually I would use A Libby or Mephiston but that sounds like suicide vs Grey Knights.

 

 

One of my friends is switching to grey knights and I looked through the codex for a while and I'm just not sure what to use, it seems like assaulting them is going to be pointless and relying on plasma cannons would be a bit more risky. I'm hesitant to rely on heavy weapons because of the Red Thirst. So simply any ideas on what may be affective against them?

 

 

A Librarian should be fine. You can always put him in Terminator armor and Storm shield, and with Unleashed Rage, Sword, and some Hammernators I'd say the Knights wouldn't be waiting for CC with them. I'm not a huge fan of using Mephiston but he will hold up fine vs the GK's - the guys over at 3++ ran some fights vs the GK Characters and Mephy wasn't a sure win but he wasn't a sure loss either.

 

Assault vs GK's is far from pointless. It's still possible that a majority of our models will strike before the Knights (other than Purifiers, it's tough to see a lot of halberds on the field) and the GK drop just like any other MEQ, they just take a few more of the Angels down with them in the counter-attack; My Sang Guard was just a sweeping death as long as I kept away from those halberds. We also have the ability to kit out our assault teams in some pretty amazing ways...they may have psychics, force halberds and Storm Psybolters, but we can match them with a LC and SS. It can get pretty costly/silly, but we have the option which is better than none at all.

 

The addition of long range fire to BA armies which run a much shorter threat range is the only big change I expect to see. We aren't going to sit 24" away and try to outshoot them, so having a little bit of box-poppers in the army backed up by assault units that can go toe to toe with the ol' Silver and Red is my expectation.

 

As a side note, I wonder how something like a libby with plasma guard will do; Seems like you could kill the Knights in droves with 1-2 of those.

[Baba Lem]

Thing with Mephi is that the Grey Knight's standard issue psyke-out grenades will reduce him to ini 1 every first turn of combat, doesn't matter if he was charged or not. And just about every GK, but the Dreadknights, has them.

[Tabgoi]

Assault vs GK's is far from pointless. It's still possible that a majority of our models will strike before the Knights (other than Purifiers, it's tough to see a lot of halberds on the field) and the GK drop just like any other MEQ, they just take a few more of the Angels down with them in the counter-attack; My Sang Guard was just a sweeping death as long as I kept away from those halberds. We also have the ability to kit out our assault teams in some pretty amazing ways...they may have psychics, force halberds and Storm Psybolters, but we can match them with a LC and SS. It can get pretty costly/silly, but we have the option which is better than none at all.

 

I still plan on beating them in the assault, its what we do best, no reason to run from it. I am in class, so no dex with me, but I seem to remember pretty much every unit my brother plans on using having those halberds as an option for free or for just 5 points. They are a heck of a cheap upgrade. I also noted a number of weapons that force perils of the warp, but I will have to recheck when I get home. And honestly while rough house, they are nothing any standing BA list cannot take out. Sure we will lose more models then we are used to against a single one of their models, but there are going to be a lot fewer of them. I would still just build my list around all comers and focus on what you want to do with your army. If you start trying to be reactive you are already at a disadvantage. Make them march to your tune, just beware of their mobility and weight of fire. I think you will see more lists substituing some melta for plasma, but that is not the end of the world. Any list should already have ways to deal with elite infantry (terminators and the like) and that is all these guys are, but without the good invulnerable saves from shooting.

 

Just remember, since I have already started hearing this nonsense, if they teleport they CANNOT assault. They can shoot, and if they put 300+ points into a dread knight you may well wish he assaulted instead, but no assaulting. Oh, and they still count as moving if they teleport.

[Something Wycked]

What is a good HQ for fighting Grey Knights? Usually I would use A Libby or Mephiston but that sounds like suicide vs Grey Knights.

 

 

One of my friends is switching to grey knights and I looked through the codex for a while and I'm just not sure what to use, it seems like assaulting them is going to be pointless and relying on plasma cannons would be a bit more risky. I'm hesitant to rely on heavy weapons because of the Red Thirst. So simply any ideas on what may be affective against them?

 

 

A Librarian should be fine. You can always put him in Terminator armor and Storm shield, and with Unleashed Rage, Sword, and some Hammernators I'd say the Knights wouldn't be waiting for CC with them. I'm not a huge fan of using Mephiston but he will hold up fine vs the GK's - the guys over at 3++ ran some fights vs the GK Characters and Mephy wasn't a sure win but he wasn't a sure loss either.

 

Assault vs GK's is far from pointless. It's still possible that a majority of our models will strike before the Knights (other than Purifiers, it's tough to see a lot of halberds on the field) and the GK drop just like any other MEQ, they just take a few more of the Angels down with them in the counter-attack; My Sang Guard was just a sweeping death as long as I kept away from those halberds. We also have the ability to kit out our assault teams in some pretty amazing ways...they may have psychics, force halberds and Storm Psybolters, but we can match them with a LC and SS. It can get pretty costly/silly, but we have the option which is better than none at all.

 

The addition of long range fire to BA armies which run a much shorter threat range is the only big change I expect to see. We aren't going to sit 24" away and try to outshoot them, so having a little bit of box-poppers in the army backed up by assault units that can go toe to toe with the ol' Silver and Red is my expectation.

 

As a side note, I wonder how something like a libby with plasma guard will do; Seems like you could kill the Knights in droves with 1-2 of those.

If you're going to take IC's like a Librarian, don't lavish them with upgrades like TDA/SS. All it takes is 1 little assassin shooting at BS8 to say "Nope, all your wargear granting invuln saves- its all broken for the rest of the game."

 

IMO, if you're going to take a Libby, stuff him in a Land Raider so he can be protected from all the anti-psyker and anti-IC nastyness and still provide protection to the army via hood and cover saves.

[Tabgoi]

Ohh, good point and great idea.

[Rybnick]

Mindstrike missiles (and a few other weapons) has the Psi-shock rule: a psyker hit by these suffers from Perils of the Warp.

 

I'm glad that you clarified this rule for me, I'd heard it interpreted to be much more deadly, as long asm y Libby is either inside a transport or in a squad he should be fine. The Psych grenades sound very bad though, looks like I'll have to play my libbies a little different vs. GK.

[mercury]

Take a Libby for psychic defence and unit-buffing powers only. Do not expect to be casting every turn. As for going toe-to-toe with Grey Knights in combat....

 

Lemartes. He's I7, S5(6 when wounded) on the charge, and re-rolls to-hit and wound, AND is an upgrade character so cannot be targeted by CC attacks. He will surely be a nasty surprise for those I6 halberds.

[Liberame]

If you're going to take IC's like a Librarian, don't lavish them with upgrades like TDA/SS. All it takes is 1 little assassin shooting at BS8 to say "Nope, all your wargear granting invuln saves- its all broken for the rest of the game."

 

IMO, if you're going to take a Libby, stuff him in a Land Raider so he can be protected from all the anti-psyker and anti-IC nastyness and still provide protection to the army via hood and cover saves.

 

You do realize it is just as easy for said assassin to destroy the Land Raider. Turbo penetration round averages 17. 4d6+3+ rending

[Decoy]

You do realize it is just as easy for said assassin to destroy the Land Raider. Turbo penetration round averages 17. 4d6+3+ rending

 

Feel that this is important enough that it needs saying twice. That Assassin is now the most spectacular tank-popper in the game right now. Take tanks against them at your peril.

[Something Wycked]

Yes and no. He's slightly less effective than a melta, but he can do his magic at 36" instead of 6" or 12". Play it smart. At the start of the game, keep your Raider out of range and take down that single model (ignore his cover, overload his invuln). It will limit the effectiveness of your Hood since you won't have it positioned perfectly, but its better than offering up your libby as a sacrifice to the Vindicare Temple.

 

Edit:

 

You do realize it is just as easy for said assassin to destroy the Land Raider. Turbo penetration round averages 17. 4d6+3+ rending

 

Forgot to mention... the Exitus is no longer Strength 3. Its purely a Sniper weapon; against vehicles, it is simply with 4d6 penetration. Average roll is now a 14.

[Zagman]

Yes and no. He's slightly less effective than a melta, but he can do his magic at 36" instead of 6" or 12". Play it smart. At the start of the game, keep your Raider out of range and take down that single model (ignore his cover, overload his invuln). It will limit the effectiveness of your Hood since you won't have it positioned perfectly, but its better than offering up your libby as a sacrifice to the Vindicare Temple.

 

Edit:

 

You do realize it is just as easy for said assassin to destroy the Land Raider. Turbo penetration round averages 17. 4d6+3+ rending

 

Forgot to mention... the Exitus is no longer Strength 3. Its purely a Sniper weapon; against vehicles, it is simply with 4d6 penetration. Average roll is now a 14.

Yet according to the BRB Sniper weapons are S3 + AP(1d6) Rending.

 

That makes the TP round S3 + AP(4d6) Redning.

 

My average comes out just North of 17 outperforming a melta at 36".

[Something Wycked]

:cuss thats what I get for posting without rereading the entry in the BRB...

 

Regardless, keep the Raider out of Vindicare range... won't be in perfect position, but it'll keep him safer than standing naked on the board.

[mercury]

But if your Raider is out of Vindicare range, is your psychic hood likely to be in range of anything important?

[mercury]

Since you are no longer using the Land Raider to the best if it's ability, you are now basically talking of spending 350 points on a psychic hood. Wouldn't these be better spent elsewhere?

 

Just take a Librarian as you normally would - he is a good, cheap HQ and our only psychic defence. In the words of Ivan Drago: 'if he dies, he dies'.

[SamaNagol]

There is a thread on the Turbo Penetrator round in the GK forum. I would postulate that it in fact does not add the S3 to it's 4D6 penetration roll

[Rybnick]

Something else I've seen people speculating about with the Turbo Penetrator shot is if the 4d6 all count rends seperately? From reading the crappy (and proven erronious) PDF rulebook I have on my work computer, the rending rule seems to have enough wiggle room to allow multiple d3 to be added for multiple 6's on the 4 penetration dice. To me it seems wrong that one shot would allow multiple rends, as opposed to an assault cannon where it's 4 seperate shots each with rending potential. I'm pretty sure most of the people at my local shop will agree that it should only allow 1 extra d3 for rending, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

A little more ontopic though in regards to my BA's being afraid of Vindicare's it still boils down to a 50% chance of him wrecking a vehicle per turn, they still have to roll a 4+ on the damage table (their gun is ap1 I believe) to wreck a vehicle. Assuming your in cover (and why wouldn't you be?) you have an even better chance of negating their 1 special shot per turn.

As for how I'm planning on dealing with them I think weight of fire will win the day, scoutting Baal Preds and anything else that has decent S shot output per turn should be able to put enough wonds on him to either kill him or keep him going to ground to take him out of the equation next turn.