Dreadknight with personal teleporter

[Grimtooth]

As the original thread remains in the Ordos Inquisition forum and the codex has now been released, I would like to bring this discussion here.

 

GK codex states that a unit with personal teleporter is Jump Infantry. The issue arises that a Dreadknight which is a Monstrous Creature, can also purchase a personal teleporter. Per the RAW of the codex this makes the Dreadknight with a personal teleporter Jump Infantry.

 

Now my opinion is that RAW, a Dreadknight with personal teleporter is Jump Infantry. He loses the benefits/negatives of MC and gains the benefits/negatives of JI. Until the FAQ is released stating that a Dreadknight with personal teleporter moves as Jump Infantry, it will be unit type Jump Infantry.

[Brother Valerius]

Everyone in the other thread is agreed that RAW, the Dreadknight doesn't merely move as jump infantry. The counter-argument, from the other thread, is that the rule does not say the Dreadknight is no longer an MC, nor is there a rule prohibiting a unit from having two types. Thus, the conclusion is that since the rules say both MC and JI, that the Dreadknight has both types simultaneously (with no clear direction as to how to mesh the two rules together).

 

Obviously that's a whole can of worms, but it's mainly intended to be the strictest possible reading of RAW (however ridiculous a situation it creates), to shut up anyone who wants to ignore the obvious intent of the teleporter in favor of RAW strictness.

 

Edit: link to the other thread for anyone who wants to peruse the arguments and counter-arguments already given: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=225836

[Grimtooth]

Everyone in the other thread is agreed that RAW, the Dreadknight doesn't merely move as jump infantry. The counter-argument, from the other thread, is that the rule does not say the Dreadknight is no longer an MC, nor is there a rule prohibiting a unit from having two types. Thus, the conclusion is that since the rules say both MC and JI, that the Dreadknight has both types simultaneously (with no clear direction as to how to mesh the two rules together).

 

Obviously that's a whole can of worms, but it's mainly intended to be the strictest possible reading of RAW (however ridiculous a situation it creates), to shut up anyone who wants to ignore the obvious intent of the teleporter in favor of RAW strictness.

 

Edit: link to the other thread for anyone who wants to peruse the arguments and counter-arguments already given: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=225836

 

The rule that prohibits two simultaneous unit types is shown on page 4 and 5 of the codex where the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k do not list a MC/JI hybrid or any hybrid for that matter.

 

I have questioned it before, but what ridiculous situation does a Dreadknight with the unit type Jump Infantry create?

[Brother Valerius]

I'm not posting to argue with you further, I've accepted that I'm never going to change your mind on the issue. I'm simply presenting the other half of the argument, so that it can be considered by posters here.

[SeattleDV8]

The rule that prohibits two simultaneous unit types is shown on page 4 and 5 of the codex where the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k do not list a MC/JI hybrid or any hybrid for that matter.

 

Not true at all, in fact the Artillery unit is an example of a unit with two different types of units (vehicle and infantry) in one unit.

I'm seeing the opposite of what you claim.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The rule that prohibits two simultaneous unit types is shown on page 4 and 5 of the codex where the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k do not list a MC/JI hybrid or any hybrid for that matter.

 

Not true at all, in fact the Artillery unit is an example of a unit with two different types of units (vehicle and infantry) in one unit.

I'm seeing the opposite of what you claim.

 

But artillery is a unit type itself it just happens to be an combination of two other types. Just like other unit types move like infantry at times for example.

[Grimtooth]

The rule that prohibits two simultaneous unit types is shown on page 4 and 5 of the codex where the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k do not list a MC/JI hybrid or any hybrid for that matter.

 

Not true at all, in fact the Artillery unit is an example of a unit with two different types of units (vehicle and infantry) in one unit.

I'm seeing the opposite of what you claim.

 

But artillery is a unit type itself it just happens to be an combination of two other types. Just like other unit types move like infantry at times for example.

 

This^^^

 

It is unit type Artillery, not unit type Artillery/Infantry or Vehicle/Infantry. It isn't a hybrid created on the whim of the player.

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry, but thats not a good argument.

Artillery is both vehicle and infantry and disproves your idea that a unit can only be one type of unit.

The DK is a hybrid created , not by a players whim ,but the GK codex.

[greatcrusade08]

The DK is a hybrid created , not by a players whim ,but the GK codex.

 

agreed RAW only shows the dreadknight becomes jump infantry, unless it says "replaces MC" or "is no longer MC" you cant make assumptions.

if we were making assumptions you should use the common sense argument and set precedences to suggest it moves like jump infantry as opposed to becomes jump infantry

[Grey Mage]

Interesting.... but it doesnt go with past precedent.

 

Remember the people who said they could take a command squad, give it bikes, and stick it in a drop pod or a landraider?

[Grimtooth]

Sorry, but thats not a good argument.

Artillery is both vehicle and infantry and disproves your idea that a unit can only be one type of unit.

The DK is a hybrid created , not by a players whim ,but the GK codex.

 

How about pointing out said MC/JI hybrid out then from the defined set of unit types in the BRB then? Artillery is Artillery. That is the unit type, nothing more. What encompasses it either way makes up the unit type Artillery. As I said, point out the unit type defined by the rules that encompasses MC/JI.

[Grimtooth]

The DK is a hybrid created , not by a players whim ,but the GK codex.

 

agreed RAW only shows the dreadknight becomes jump infantry, unless it says "replaces MC" or "is no longer MC" you cant make assumptions.

if we were making assumptions you should use the common sense argument and set precedences to suggest it moves like jump infantry as opposed to becomes jump infantry

 

You have it wrong,

 

RAW states that a Dreadknight with personal teleporter IS jump infantry. Not transitional in that it becomes or transforms, just the definititive IS jump infantry.

 

Since it declares it is Jump Infantry, we can look at the beginning of the BRB for the defined unit types of Warhammer 40k and see the entry for Jump Infantry. That is the RAW that shows you that it is no longer a MC. There is nothing in the defined unit type of Jump Infantry on page 4/5 that says Jump Infantry is still MC.

[Lord Typhon]

Sorry, but thats not a good argument.

Artillery is both vehicle and infantry and disproves your idea that a unit can only be one type of unit.

The DK is a hybrid created , not by a players whim ,but the GK codex.

agreed RAW only shows the dreadknight becomes jump infantry, unless it says "replaces MC" or "is no longer MC" you cant make assumptions.

if we were making assumptions you should use the common sense argument and set precedences to suggest it moves like jump infantry as opposed to becomes jump infantry

 

^This.

 

Either it's a hybrid (via strictest written rules), or it is a mc that moves like ji (sheer common sense), however one of these requires assumptions and one doesn't, so I'm invoking the mighty name of Occam's Razor ( Boiled down to "The one with the least assumptions is, all things being equal, the right one" ). I'm almost sure we'll get an FAQ rather quickly if Dreadknights are used as commonly as I'm sure they will be, so this will likely be a moot point arguement within a matter of a month or so.

 

On an unrelated point, this arguement already exists as another thread (as you're aware), so realistically shouldn't it be kept to that one? I'm unfamiliar with every forum rule, but aren't people usually pointed towards an existing thread when new ones are made then duplicates closed?

[Grey Mage]

On an unrelated point, this arguement already exists as another thread (as you're aware), so realistically shouldn't it be kept to that one? I'm unfamiliar with every forum rule, but aren't people usually pointed towards an existing thread when new ones are made then duplicates closed?

Sometimes other moderators will move threads here, to the OR, so we can dissect them. However, while we appreciate the use of the search function theres nothing stopping folks from debating the topic in another place- army specific rules come up frequently in their own forums.

 

It also isnt uncommon for such threads to be closed with a link to the ORs thread if they become circular. We dont mind.

[Grimtooth]

The other post was put up in the Ordos forum before GK rules discussions were allowed to be posted here in the OR forum.

 

Let's play some mad libs:

 

A unit with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

So on the topic of discussion;

 

A Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

It tells us a UNIT (not unit type) with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry (unit type)

 

It doesn't say;

 

A Monstrous Creature with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

So back to;

 

A Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

What is unit type Jump Infantry? Oh wise GW developers what is Jump Infantry? Is it a mixture of two different unit types? Is it a hybrid of Infantry and a Beast that can jump?

 

And a voice from above said,

 

"THE DEFINED UNIT TYPES OF WARHAMMER 40K ARE ON PAGES 4 AND 5 OF THE BRB!!"

 

And lo and behold I turned to the pages and founf the unit type Jump Infantry, that had absolutely no mention at all of Monstrous Creatures in it's entry!

 

So how do you possibly get;

 

A Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry/Monstrous Creature

 

From

 

A Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Another way to put it would be. If you have a unit that is Infantry and then it gets a personal teleporter does it become Infantry/Jump Infantry? I dont think so...

[SeattleDV8]

yawn....yes I understand you don't like it.

Page 5 shows us that a unit can be both vehicle and infantry....kinda blows your idea out of the water...HEH

You still have not come up with a RULES backing to explain why it would not work.

Let's just wait for the FAQ.....even though I'm pretty sure my version is the correct one.

[Lord Typhon]

So how do you possibly get;

 

A Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry/Monstrous Creature

 

From

 

A Dreadknight with a personal teleporter is Jump Infantry.

 

Simple, it doesn't say it replaces MC or deletes it. If it doesn't replace or delete, then it must remain. If you wanted what you stated it would say "Unit BECOMES Jump Infantry." or "Change Unit Type to Jump Infantry". Going by Occam's Razor again, your way requires an assumption, whereas it becoming both types requires merely following the words upon the page..so, no assumptions = right.

 

To pre-empt the inevitable "well how do the rules work for a MC/JI work then?" Simple, follow both except for cases where one says you CAN'T do something. MC can't embark, so no 'raven surfing for the mavelous jumping mech, MC roll additional penetration whereas JI don't say you CAN'T take additional dice, so you DO.

[Gentlemanloser]

yawn....yes I understand you don't like it.

Page 5 shows us that a unit can be both vehicle and infantry....kinda blows your idea out of the water...HEH

You still have not come up with a RULES backing to explain why it would not work.

Let's just wait for the FAQ.....even though I'm pretty sure my version is the correct one.

 

Sorry DV8, I totally disagree with this.

 

Artillery is a distinct unit type, and it's not Infantry at the same time.

 

The confusion is that a unit might be made up of mixed elements, an Artillery gun and an Infantry firer (like a Techmarine and Thunderfire). But the individual elements (in said total unit) still only have a single unit type.

 

The Techmarine is Infantry.

 

The Thunderfire cannon is Artillery.

 

The issue here would be a unit that cotains mini's of a combined unit type. In the case of the thunderfire, there wouldn't be a seperate firer and cannon, but a single entity that is at the same time both Artillery *and* Infantry.

 

Which just can't happen.

 

That's the problem with the current RAW for the NDK. If you allow mixed unit types as a possibility, it is both MC and JI at the same time, and the rules for both unit types are incompatible.

 

MC can't embark, so no 'raven surfing for the mavelous jumping mech, MC roll additional penetration whereas JI don't say you CAN'T take additional dice, so you DO.

 

That's twisting the rules for your favour.

 

The rules for JI don't say *you can* roll an additional dice, so you can't.

[Lord Typhon]

MC can't embark, so no 'raven surfing for the mavelous jumping mech, MC roll additional penetration whereas JI don't say you CAN'T take additional dice, so you DO.

 

That's twisting the rules for your favour.

 

The rules for JI don't say *you can* roll an additional dice, so you can't.

Actually it's following the rules. Something says you CAN, so you can, at no point does JI say you CAN'T; If JI said you can't roll additional dice and MUST use 1d6 with no modifiers then I'd be all for what you're saying, but since one says you can and the other doesn't say you can't, then it's quite simple;

 

MC says roll 2d6 (default set to 2d6)

JI says it rolls the normal number. (Use default.)

Therefor you get default, which thanks to MC is set to 2. You get 1+1+0 (Normal+MC+JI) ....care to do the maths of 1+1+0 for me?

[Gentlemanloser]

at no point does JI say you CAN'T

 

Actually it does.

 

The JI rules state you follow the Infantry rules for Assaults. Under the Infantry rules it explains you roll S+1d6 for Penetration. Likewise Infantry don't get Relentless (unless given by Wargear, like TDA).

[BOBMAKENZIE]

yawn....yes I understand you don't like it.

Page 5 shows us that a unit can be both vehicle and infantry....kinda blows your idea out of the water...HEH

You still have not come up with a RULES backing to explain why it would not work.

Let's just wait for the FAQ.....even though I'm pretty sure my version is the correct one.

 

sorry page 5 as in "These units represent large weapons and their crews, the gun models themselves being large enough to be treated as small vehicles. Artillery counts as infantry in most respects, but when they are fired at, hits may be scored on the guns themselves which have vehicle-like characteristics" pg 5 BRB Which says that they are "vehicle-like" and "artillery units" not "Infantry/Vehicle units"

 

How about the big banner at the top of the section that says "The other types of unit are also defined here and then explained in detail later in specific sections that cover their unique rules."

 

Then it lists all these types as being their own unique unit? Im going to list them and bold ones of interest.

 

Infatnry

Beasts and cavalry

Monstrous Creatures

Jump Infantry

Bikes & JetBikes

vehicles

Artillery

 

You can see Artillery is its own thing not a mixed type. It happens to be made up of Vehicle and Infantry models I can freely admit that (its even in the rules "These units are quite comple as they include some vehicle models and some infantry models."pg 55) and has to use some of the rules from each but that most definitely does not make it a combined type it is its own type.

 

The Confusion here is that Models =/= Unit type. Artillery is the unit type, the models are vehicles and infantry.

 

These are defined as follows on page 3.

 

"Each model is an individual playing piece with its own capabilities."

 

"Units fight in loose groups with gaps between each model....Similarly, artillery batteries consist of large guns and the crew that fire them, vehicle squadrons are made up of a number of vehicles and so on....In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'. The different types of unit are detailed overleaf." (Engage list of units that we have talked about previously.)

 

So to summarize.

 

Units are formed up of individual models and in one case may include both vehicle and infantry models.

Unit type can be defined as one of the following:

 

Infantry

Beasts and cavalry

Monstrous Creatures

Jump Infantry

Bikes & JetBikes

vehicles

Artillery

 

A unit can have mixed models but the only time that is dealt with in the rules is for an Artillery unit which has its own special rules and functional differences as it is its own category.

 

Edit: Spelling and stuff.

[dswanick]

at no point does JI say you CAN'T

 

Actually it does.

 

The JI rules state you follow the Infantry rules for Assaults. Under the Infantry rules it explains you roll S+1d6 for Penetration. Likewise Infantry don't get Relentless (unless given by Wargear, like TDA).

The MC rules say the same thing - MCs use the rules for infantry for armor pen, except they roll an additional d6. Your argument could also be used to negate such basic USRs as Tank Hunter, or anything else which gives a bonus.

[Grey Mage]

Another way to put it would be. If you have a unit that is Infantry and then it gets a personal teleporter does it become Infantry/Jump Infantry? I dont think so...

Or a command squad gets bikes....

 

Or an honor gaurd gets jump packs.....

[Gentlemanloser]

The MC rules say the same thing - MCs use the rules for infantry for armor pen, except they roll an additional d6. Your argument could also be used to negate such basic USRs as Tank Hunter, or anything else which gives a bonus.

 

Yes. Which is why a mini with a unit type of MC/JI can't work.

 

As for USRs, they are totally seperate to Unit Type rules. As is Wargear and any bonuses that gives.